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My paladin is currently working with a lawful evil fighter, to make things worse he has a ring of mind blank, or something like it, making him utterly undetectable at any level, in addition to this he hasn't done anything evil in my paladin's presence and has actually done some good things (like freeing slaves) that my character has witnessed.
Should there be any repercussions for this?
I earlier had a similar problem with an evil character who didn't actually do any evil, at all. This guy does evil stuff from time to time, like the time he cooked and ate a quickling, yeah the quickling was an evil bastard, but the fighter was going to boil it alive, and then eat it.
This guy is definitely evil, but he is also smart enough to not do anything that will cause me to suspect him of being evil, let alone do anything smite-worthy in my presence.
He can claim ignorance, and I would definetly rule this one as "You're forgiven", as long as he is not actively turning away when the bad things happen.
As it's described, clearly there's no reason for your character to suspect him of being evil even though as the player you know he's evil. If the DM shafts you do to "working with evil" you probably have a DM with paladin issues, that said there with be repercussions even if it's just trying to undo the damage the fighter has done.
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Well right off the bat you probably want to get away from just thinking about it in terms of good or evil. The alignment of the fighter doesn't really come into play at all unless your planning on smiting him due to that ring (heck, if he was under 5th level he wouldn't even need it!)
You should be focusing more on the whole "anyone who consistently offends her moral code" part of the Associate section. If the party fighter isn't doing that then they're probably not being very evil at all.
Using the alignments are just one of many loose tools to help you get into the thought process of your character angle that I like, a lawful character would tend towards the same behavior as any other lawful character, the good/neutral/evil aspect could be considered to be more along the lines of motivation for the lawful outlook.
As it stands your paladin seems to have no reason to be suspicious and you'll really only be in trouble by whatever the powers may be that they follow by being either complacent, or treachery. Being tricked into doing something wrong is just one of those extra dangers of being a paladin, and can add a lot to your character if it's something they have to redeem themselves because of.
The best solution for outing the evil side of the fighter without meta-gaming would probably be to lead by example and be the best paladin that you can be. Generosity, Charity and just generally helping those in need. Be a moral compass to help lead your wayward friend back into the path of the straight and narrow or wait for him to slip up enough for you to smite him out of existence.
Wow, that post went on way longer then I'd liked....maybe I shouldn't post stuff at 1am.
I dont see any reason why your Pally couldn´t work with EvilFighter, even if he didn´t have a Ring of Mindblack. Read the PRPG Paladin rules, Paizo explicitly says that Pallys will work with Evil when that serves their goal, they just have more limits on doing so than other Good characters might (unless those characters voluntarily act according to Paladin code). If the Pally is going about his calling, EvilFighter is helping him and in fact not even revealing Evil inclinations/acts to the Pally, I dont see any problem. Of course, EVENTUALLY I suspect EvilFighter´s true intent will be revealed... Great RP opportunity!
EDIT: +1 to Morgen´s post above... The Pally´s Code/Associate rules care less about alignment per se than actions... A sufficiently CN character could equally tick off their Associate rules.
Pathfinder should not be a competitive game. It should not be about you (the player) vs the fighter's player. I would talk with both the GM and the fighter's player out of session and discuss how things are going. In this way all three of you can be prepared for the time when the fighter "slips up" in the paladin's presences. Do you work out a party split, does the GM help out by presenting a "greater evil" to keep things focused and rolling, does the fighter start working away from evil and more eventually, does the paladin 'fall?' Lots of questions, lots of different degrees of answers, with the onus on the GM to help arbitrate the upcoming roleplaying in a way that both you and the fighter player can be satisfied, and hopefully provide wonderful side entertainment for the other players.
I dont see any reason why your Pally couldn´t work with EvilFighter, even if he didn´t have a Ring of Mindblack. Read the PRPG Paladin rules, Paizo explicitly says that Pallys will work with Evil when that serves their goal, they just have more limits on doing so than other Good characters might (unless those characters voluntarily act according to Paladin code). If the Pally is going about his calling, EvilFighter is helping him and in fact not even revealing Evil inclinations/acts to the Pally, I dont see any problem. Of course, EVENTUALLY I suspect EvilFighter´s true intent will be revealed... Great RP opportunity!
+1, and +1 to what Morgen said as well.
Don't metagame it. Just act in character based on the information your character possesses. The game will be more fun and interesting for both of you.
Also, you might consider that your deity is, well, a deity, and has much more insight and control over the world than his followers do. Are you serving a deity that would trick you, or allow you to be tricked, into falling? Perhaps your character has been placed into that group to create exactly the behavior you see - the 'evil' one isn't doing any evil! Perhaps you are his role model. Perhaps you will be present at some crucial moment to stop him from doing great harm. There are all sorts of ways this story could end up being very interesting, but out of game knowledge? You could use that to wreck any of them.
I played a LE rogue/cleric of a god of murder and thieves in the same group as a paladin...he never caught me doing anything. It was delicious.
Use it for the RP opportunities it provides, and don't look at it like a contest.
If he does it right, he may even convince your character that evil isn't so bad, and lead you on a path to anti-paladin hood.
Firstly: If the Paladin takes reasonable steps to see if someone is evil and the person in question has magic that hides it- then the Paladin isn't at fault. As long as the "target" isn't going around actively doing evil where the Paladin could, or should have seen it then the Paladin is in the clear.
Secondly: The Paladin is also about converting evil to good. If he is around someone who he knows is evil but isn't doing evil- but is instead actually doing good.. the Paladin isn't going to rock the boat. They'll keep on being the shiny example and try their best to steer that Big E over to Big N and eventually to Big G. The Paladin should never be "You are evil so I'm leaving". You never convert anyone that way. This doesn't mean he has to condone the actions of evil- rather than someone being evil doesn't mean the paladin has to head out. teach, convert, lead the sinners to the righteousness of .. whatever faith it is the Paladin is worshipping.
What you really need to think of is this: How will your PC react when they find out that the fighter is actually evil and was actively hiding it? That in and of itself is highly suspect. (it shows the guy KNOWS he is evil and what he is doing is worth hiding).
-S
Read the PRPG Paladin rules, Paizo explicitly says that Pallys will work with Evil when that serves their goal, they just have more limits on doing so than other Good characters might (unless those characters voluntarily act according to Paladin code). If the Pally is going about his calling, EvilFighter is helping him and in fact not even revealing Evil inclinations/acts to the Pally, I dont see any problem. Of course, EVENTUALLY I suspect EvilFighter´s true intent will be revealed... Great RP opportunity!
EDIT: +1 to Morgen´s post above... The Pally´s Code/Associate rules care less about alignment per se than actions... A sufficiently CN character could equally tick off their Associate rules.
Totally - There's language in the Golarian setting that there are paladins working for the Chelaxian government, despite them being, literally, devil worshippers, and hypothetically a paladin could even be a Hellnight.
The justification plays off of the "law" component of LG - The threat of Chaotic Evil is so paramount to them that they litterally take the lesser of two evils, and support a Lawful Evil regeim to *avoid* the society disintegrating into chaos and evil -- of course all the while doing their best to work within the system to use the system against it's evil nature and maximise good and the potential for ultimate interal reform away from evil.
That's one seriously nuanced RP challenge, though. Great for a "he who fights monsters beware becomeing a monster himself" heavy RP game - probably just exploit-bait for most other games.
I dont think there would be any problem with the pally code either. If i recall, it says you many not knowingly associate with evil, but your doing it unknowingly.
Personaly, I think the Fighter should be congratulated for doing such a good RP job of hiding his evilness from the paladin within game rules.
I dont think there would be any problem with the pally code either. If i recall, it says you many not knowingly associate with evil, but your doing it unknowingly.
Not even that. Paladins are allowed now to associate with evil individuals, as long as it serves the greater good.
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If the GM and the player were doing a good job, you wouldn't know the fighter was evil. You would only judge the character on his actions.
Seems like a lot of Paladin players have this paranoia about breaking the code. I blame childish GMs for that. It comes from this GM V Players mindset.
The straight virtuous hero with a morally questionable sidekick is a classic trope that should be fun for all involved.
Not even that. Paladins are allowed now to associate with evil individuals, as long as it serves the greater good.
+1
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
They have added some rules about working with evil characters, but they're not nearly as strict as the 3.5 guidelines.
If the other character is completely concealing it there shouldn't be an issue at all.
Two easy questions:
A) Has your paladin performed evil or chaotic acts?
B) Has your paladin knowingly allowed an ally to commit evil or chaotic acts?
If the answer is no to both questions, you should be fine.
Of course, if someday you discover the evil deeds of your companion, your reaction and subsequent actions may be telling.
Seems like a lot of Paladin players have this paranoia about breaking the code. I blame childish GMs for that.
Being a jerk has no age restriction, so please don't insult children ;-P
Whatever the case, the evil fighter does not get to stand beside the BBEG in the Big Showdown and go "Nya nya nya, I was evil all along and you never knew! You broke your code and lose all your powers!"
If that were the case, paladin would not be a PC class, since they could never work in a party for fear of the evil metagame deceivers praying on their lack of genre savvy.
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Two easy questions:
A) Has your paladin performed evil or chaotic acts?
B) Has your paladin knowingly allowed an ally to commit evil or chaotic acts?
If the answer is no to both questions, you should be fine.
Of course, if someday you discover the evil deeds of your companion, your reaction and subsequent actions may be telling.
No, not that I'm aware of, I even went through a lot of trouble defining my code with the GM. The entire point of this was so that I could be prepared in case something arises. GM dickery is amongst the worst kind, but also amongst the easiest to avoid, I just want to know if I would be justified in calling the GM out.
The only people in my party my paladin takes issue with are the group's Sorcerer, for making people dirty or smell funny using prestidigitation (paladins of Iomedae are sort of neat-freaks, at the very least they like being clean) but I also have prestidigitation so it becomes a contest of patience to see who will stop casting it first, I find this amusing. I can keep using prestidigitation because I took the magic talent trait, picked up prestidigitation, and craft wondrous item, then made a feather-duster that casts it at-will.
The other character I take issue with is the Oracle, who despite being (nearly) blind, still uses create water on my character, in order to take advantage of my character's incredibly high (32) charisma, which we've all agreed that someone with that much charisma should also be fairly attractive.
The only reason I know that the fighter is evil, is because I overheard them discussing it fairly early on. My paladin still doesn't know it and I have her behave (trusting him with protecting important objects, letting him go places with squishy blood-filled innocents unescorted, etc.)as though she thinks he's good.
Why? That`s not addressing any need of the OP, or you`re completely overlooking all relevant posts here as to how the Paladin code actually works. If the player wants his Paladin to be Sensing people`s Motives, he will invest in that skill, otherwise there`s no need to. The OP obviously is getting along just fine in his game, and was just worried some rules loop-hole would come back to bite him, which has been addressed, and isn`t a concern. His character doesn`t NEED to become a paranoic, seeking out `evil aligned` people to precipitate a conflict. As I wrote before, if EvilFighter removes the Ring of Mindblack and Paladin Detects Evil, it changes nothing, they can still continue to cooperate just as they have been doing.
Why would EvilFighter be arrested for `being Evil`?
He would be arrested for specific crimes, which is more of a Law/Chaos thing than Good/Evil.
EvilFighter seems to be well behaved, and not openly doing crimes...
Of course, a typical adventuring party may very well break multitudes of crimes all the time, so any additional crimes by the Fighter aren`t necessarily something fundamentally different here.
The thing is, what is `Evil`? The EvilFighter may very well just be selfish. Not much different than an Evil shopkeeper or who-ever, just because the Paladin could know they are evil doesn`t target them for death or the police, an Evil person may very well never contribute towards the death of an innocent because they don`t feel the need... That is only one form of Evil. Throwing the Fighter to the police for breaking the law because he`s Evil (when if this wasn`t known, he wouldn`t be thrown to the police) itself seems to present Aligment/Code issues. The issue here is actions/intents of the EvilFighter that the Paladin is aware of. If he only thinks the EvilFighter may be selfish, or prone to torturing evil captives, that is a judgement to be made, balancing against the greater good, along with Paladins ongoing efforts to promote Goodness.... I.e. an extension of the Lawful Good Paladin`s general obligations from their Code, and nothing special.
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I did do something slightly chaotic, but it was certainly for good means. We were hired to investigate this underwater reef that was glowing for some reason and we found a laboratory and a crystal (in-setting these crystals are used as a magic transit system), the constructs operating the laboratory asked us to not tell anyone about it, I said "okay, in that I understand you want us to not tell anyone about it, but I'm going to anyway" sort of way.
The laboratory was running short on supplies, but had some incredibly powerful magic items (reusable books of stats, that had other benefits to them amongst other things), so I told the people who hired us, a lawful ~good, by reputation, family business that sells wondrous magic items, and tried arranging a deal between the family and the Lab.
I didn't do this before I gave the Lab some materials in exchange for use of one of the books. What I didn't realize at the time was that part of the deal to use the books was to not tell anyone. I was under the impression that they were completely separate, which apparently they weren't.
I also asked the family business to provide additional security to them, more so than they were already going to provide.
There is nothing that says that a paladin can't try to redeem someone who has a "stain on his soul".
You don't have to play the pally as one dimensional (Detect Evil, Smite Evil, wash and repeat).
Maybe he sees his fighter companion as needing guidance to find his way back to the light. You can do this in many ways. For instance, you could lead by example and explain your own actions to him.
You can preach to him the virtues of goodness and in extreme cases could intervene as needed.
example: "I'm sorry my friend, I have hidden your sword. You can have it back when you sober up..I'm sure that you don't want to do anything that you would regret later so i'm helping you now."
Paladin's can offer salvation to those who need it.
Of course, you could just grapple him WWF style when he acts evil and pin him until he renouces his evil ways. :)
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There is nothing that says that a paladin can't try to redeem someone who has a "stain on his soul".
You don't have to play the pally as one dimensional (Detect Evil, Smite Evil, wash and repeat).Maybe he sees his fighter companion as needing guidance to find his way back to the light. You can do this in many ways. For instance, you could lead by example and explain your own actions to him.
You can preach to him the virtues of goodness and in extreme cases could intervene as needed.
example: "I'm sorry my friend, I have hidden your sword. You can have it back when you sober up..I'm sure that you don't want to do anything that you would regret later so i'm helping you now."
Paladin's can offer salvation to those who need it.
Of course, you could just grapple him WWF style when he acts evil and pin him until he renouces his evil ways. :)
I'd have to declare him my smite target to win that, I'm a ranged combatant, he's sword and board. The important part is that my character is clueless to the point of not even suspecting him of being evil, despite ostensibly being the nerdiest paladin ever. The only thing I could do to up the ante is to have my paladin start playing games, she already reads everything in sight, and knows way too much about esoteric subjects.
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well I'd still get ranks in sense motive just for ROLEplaying issues between the two characters for a just in case......
they know you know.....
I have sense motive, in fact I have as much sense motive as my wisdom 10 ass will let me have.
So what if they know? I use their knowledge of my knowledge as a system lest I slip into metagaming. I'm as honest as I can be, because it's a game, and cheating in a game is pathetic. Unless I'm running the game and the dice decide to try making a sharp turn off my intended path, but I have fairly good dice control, so it's only come up a few times.
I don't think you should try as a player to find out that your fellow player is evil. As a paladin, this scenario is set up to help both of you play the characters you want to play, and unless I'm wrong, as players you are supposed to work together, even if your characters are at cross purposes.
take lvls in sense motive and have your paaldin read his body language after he does something sneaky
That's the worst thing a Paladin can do for group harmony and the fun of the game. I'm playing a Paladin in one campaign and I think I might be the only good aligned character in the party. I quite enjoyed having evil characters do evil stuff while my Paladin genuinely thought they were good people (boy did his world come crashing down on him when he discovered one of his good friends turned out to be evil! Damn that stray Detect Evil that I had been careful to only use on certain enemies after we had engaged in combat). But maybe that's because I'm usually playing the evil character.
Now that I've discovered one of my friends is evil I am (as a player) enjoying having my paladin bring this evil person into the light (it's largely the only reason I haven't killed him yet). After all, I can influence this evil character more as his friend then if he was thrown in jail (and I don't know if he's done anything that I could prove in a court of law that would have him sentenced to jail). I've had some remarkable success, mixed with some steps backwards. But my character genuinely believes the evil character has become more good then when I first met him. This is largely from misunderstanding the motives behind the evil character's actions and the fact my character wants to see the best in everyone.
Also by being close to the evil character, I can help atone afterwards for those times when I can't stop him from doing something evil (e.g. He killed someone that I didn't feel needed killing, but was unable to stop him from doing so. Afterwards I anonymously ensured the person had a good burial rather then tossed into a mass grave).
If the fighter does something overtly evil, talk (preemptively) to the paladin about "pushing his companions towards a higher path" i.e. making the fighter swear to follow the paladins orders, or code of conduct.
In my curse of the crimson throne, a Paladin of Sarenrae worked with an evil cleric of Zon-Kuthon, by forcing him to swear on his own life that he would (in front of the paladin) follow the paladins moral and ethical code.
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The previous 3 posters didn't really read my question. Please, for the love of on-topic posts, please read the initial post. I'm not trying to find out anything other than whether or not this will bite me in the butt at a later date, and so far the answer has been "no, but if it does, you might want to find a new GM, or never play paladin for this one again." which is an answer I can accept.
Perhaps the OP didn't apply any critical thinking to my answer then. Good of you to assume I didn't read your question though. Let's all make negative assumptions about each other when others don't live up to our own perfect expectations.
Obviously, if I don't think you ought to as a player try to engage in 'discovering' your fellow player's evil, I don't think there ought to be any consequences for working with an evil character (which has already been pointed out as a specific allowance in a paladin's code in PF) unwittingly, especially as there are no consequences for working with one willingly in pursuit of the greater good.
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Perhaps the OP didn't apply any critical thinking to my answer then. Good of you to assume I didn't read your question though. Let's all make negative assumptions about each other when others don't live up to our own perfect expectations.
Obviously, if I don't think you ought to as a player try to engage in 'discovering' your fellow player's evil, I don't think there ought to be any consequences for working with an evil character (which has already been pointed out as a specific allowance in a paladin's code in PF) unwittingly, especially as there are no consequences for working with one willingly in pursuit of the greater good.
I did apply it, there wasn't anything in that post that pertained to what I was asking for initially. Finding out his alignment is something that will come on it's own. Not something I'm going to actively seek out about someone my character assumes is good aligned, because he hasn't shown any signs of being evil. We've been in the same team for a few months, if I was going to see any signs of evil, I would have seen them by now.
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I will note that in the Council of Thieves AP, the recommended Iconic party includes a paladin and a Lawful Evil worshipper of Asmodeus (who doesn't have a magic ring).
Holy crap, that totally resolves a minor disagreement about the behavior of a paladin of Iomedae. He says that Iomedae wouldn't condone working with evil, I say they will so long as they are fighting evil. This gives me proof I can use to win the argument.
Shoga, why would that concern a paladin? No result on detect a bunch of crap could easily mean that the person was True Neutral.
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Point 3
If you want to pursue it, then you need to cast detect good/law/chaos to see what happens. Obviously, all those spells would give you no answer.
Here's about the point where you miss the point a bit. A Paladin isn't an Inquisitor, they aren't innately suspicious of everyone around them, there is a degree of optimism with the Paladin, or at very least a willingness to judge someone based on their actions rather than the motives behind those actions. The only thing the paladin has to be careful of is the fallout of any actions taken.
Yes someone can be very greedy, but if they perform heroic deeds in order to be payed large sums of cash, that's still performing heroic deeds. It's when they cross the line(s) that they catch the wrath of a paladin.