Deep 6 FaWtL

[Tacticslion]

(But I'd also eat the other stuff.)

EDIT: Ack! I get dressed.

>.<

[Scintillae]

The dining room has a strict dress code, sir. Clothing is required.

[Just a Mort]

Nobody’s Home wrote:

But yeah, I've learned not to try to mix American and Chinese ingredients.

See? You need to learn from NH, TL. Cream Cheese Wontons are an affront to my senses!

[Freehold DM]

Holy.

Shit.

Someone got me TONS of stuff off my pathfinder paizo wishlist.

I HAVE THE ELEVATION INDICATOR NOW
AND THE ADVENTURES GUIDE AND INNER SEA GODS AND DISTANT WORLDS
THE ACTUAL BOOK NOT THE PDF

I AM FREAKING OUT

FREAKING.

OUT.

THANK YOU...

[Orthos]

Tacticslion wrote:

Alright, fam: QQ: what is a powerful female villain in an iconic Video Game Franchise?

For reference, I'm comparing this to, say, Bowser and Ganon.

The "Mario and Luigi" games gave us Cackletta the witch and the Shroob Queen and Princesses. Cackletta, by far, is the more memorable of the two.

"Paper Mario" gave us the Shadow Queen in Thousand Year Door. Probably one of the more sinister Mario villains.

"Zelda: Oracle of Seasons" gave us another witch, Veran.

"Pokemon X and Y" gave us

Spoiler:

Malva, a member of the Elite Four (four of the five strongest trainers in the territory, for non Pokemon players) who is openly stated to be a high-ranking member of the evil group in that region, Team Flare. It's also strongly hinted that she's going to take over the group after its leader disappears/dies in the course of the story, and that the group even after their "defeat" still has connections and control of the authorities in the entire region.

The next generation, "Pokemon Sun and Moon" had

Spoiler:

Lusamine, the president of the Aether Foundation, a conservationist group... who was also obsessed with breaching portals to another dimension to find and capture alien creatures, nearly killing several Pokemon and her own two children in the process of doing so. She also keeps a gallery of Pokemon in her office, frozen in tubes, to keep them "eternally beautiful".

"Castlevania" has Carmilla, a frequently-recurring female vampire who is usually one of the tougher bosses before reaching Dracula himself. There's also Actrice, a witch who manipulates things to use Dracula's power to strengthen her magic and lengthen her immortality.

"Chrono Trigger" gives us Queen Zeal, easily the most actual evil character in the game - the final boss, Lavos, is more a force of nature and massive hostile animalistic creature than an actual evildoer - and an incredibly powerful sorceress and commander of exotic technology.

"Parasite Eve" has the title character.

"Breath of Fire 3" has Myria, an overbearing and manipulative goddess who genocides an entire species (save a very small handful) simply because she couldn't control them and their presence thus annoyed her.

"Bravely Default" has

Spoiler:

Airy, a fairy-like creature who accompanies the PCs almost like a familiar through most of the game. You learn near the end however that she is an immortal bug-demon (her true form is a caterpillar-centaur-antlion-thing) that has gone through countless iterations of this world in parallel timelines, leading them deliberately to be destroyed and consumed by a demonic entity called Ouroboros that exists outside of time.

I'll post more as I think of them.

[John Napier 698]

It looks like someone around here remembered that your birthday is just a couple days away, Freehold.

[Orthos]

<facepalm>

I am extremely remiss that I have somehow managed to neglect both SHODAN ("System Shock" series) and GLaDOS ("Portal" series) on my above list. Both malevolent female AIs.

Also, "Neverwinter Nights" had a TON of female villains:
> The original campaign gave us Aribeth de Tylmarande, a fallen paladin, and Morag, a Sarrukh chieftainess and archmage who would have nearly returned the world to a prehistoric jungle age if not stopped.
> "Shadows of Undrentide" gave us Heurodis, a medusa lich who revived a fallen Netherese city and went on a conquering flight.
> "Hordes of the Underdark" brought in The Valsharess, a drow cleric and conquering empress who managed to overpower Halaster within Undermountain and bind (if temporarily) Mephistopheles himself into her service.

Nintendo's "Kid Icarus" series had Medusa and Pandora, who in that setting are actually deities.

[Just a Mort]

TL wrote:

The funny part is that these are made by people from China. They are immigrants, and most of them can't speak English at all.

That's because they made it to cater to local tastes! Commercialization speaks!

That is, to people who have no taste like you! =P

And captain yesterday!

[captain yesterday]

New day time brute squad guy keeps putting filled orders in the lower bay where big items are supposed to go. It annoys me because then you have bags on the floor and looks messy.

Since he won't listen I've taken to putting my filled orders in the highest bays that require a ladder.

So he's gotta climb the goddamn ladder anyway.

And no, he's not out of shape, just lazy.

[captain yesterday]

I am now scared of Galt.

Freehold gets it.

[Terrinam]

Tacticslion wrote:

Alright, fam: QQ: what is a powerful female villain in an iconic Video Game Franchise?

For reference, I'm comparing this to, say, Bowser and Ganon.

End-boss-type stuff.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Also, tryyyyyying to get a variety of franchises, though if there's a really good one, maybe that.

I do have one candidate that I found, recently: the Dark Queen (from the Battle Toads franchise); if anyone has solid information on her, other than the Wikipedia article, that'd be cool. Still, I'm looking for others, and preferably something at least quasi-family-friendly (akin to Ganon and Bowser).

(Sonic has Dr. Robotnic, and Final Fantasy has all sorts*, though none are recurring, obviously.)

** spoiler omitted **

Alma Wade of the F.E.A.R. series.

The queen from Final Fantasy 9. Most people forget about her because the game really wasn't that good, but she was easily one of the most memorable villains from that series.

Mileena from Mortal Kombat. One of the most dangerous characters in that franchise, and unlike many of the others she manages not to get killed.

Bethany Covenant, from Clive Barker's Undying.

Bodhi, from Baldur's Gate 2.

Dahlia Gillespie, of Silent Hill.

Cortana, the AI from the Halo series.

There's quite a few, really. Many of them are just terrifying in how they wield forces you can't really counter directly.

[Orthos]

As a big fan of FF9 (it's my second favorite in the series, behind 6), we ignore Brahne more because she wasn't the main antagonist and was dead by the end of the first disk <_<

[captain yesterday]

Just a Mort wrote:

TL wrote:

The funny part is that these are made by people from China. They are immigrants, and most of them can't speak English at all.

That's because they made it to cater to local tastes! Commercialization speaks!

That is, to people who have no taste like you! =P

And captain yesterday!

I actually have little sense of taste or smell.

So you are in fact correct.

[John Napier 698]

And, to be clear, that's Cortana post-rampancy and post-logic plague.

[Terrinam]

Brahne isn't the only one on my list that isn't the main antagonist. But to be fair, Bowser has had more than a few games where he's not been the main antagonist either. He tends to slide up and down the villain scale a lot, and I really get the feeling he's not really viewed as a true threat in his own universe. More of an annoyance everyone has to put up with because he has an army.

She's still a good villain, though. Too bad how she ended up.

[Scintillae]

Yeah, Brahne isn't like a Bowser or Ganon main threat tier. You don't even fight her.

And FF9 for life. Beatrix was the best and should've been playable.

[Orthos]

John Napier 698 wrote:

And, to be clear, that's Cortana post-rampancy and post-logic plague.

... maybe that's not the best name to attach to your modern-day Clippy, Microsoft.

[That Damn Paper Clip]

She wishes she were as memorable as me.

I can't help with that.

[Scintillae]

It looks like you're trying to make a point. Would you like help with that?

[Terrinam]

Scintillae wrote:

Yeah, Brahne isn't like a Bowser or Ganon main threat tier. You don't even fight her.

And FF9 for life. Beatrix was the best and should've been playable.

I knew I should have saved that edit...

I don't really count Bowser as a main threat tier either. Mainly because of the number of times he's been either a pawn or forced to help Mario against a greater threat.

Bowser and Ganon certainly are not the same league of threat.

[Scintillae]

It's more...Bowser and Ganon are the go-to archenemies of those franchises. They occasionally switch it up, but you can generally expect them to be the major antagonist for most games. Eggman in Sonic does the same. Compared to each other, they pose different levels of threat, but their story role is effectively the same: they are a/the primary antagonist to be stopped.

[Orthos]

Yeah. I could have easily thought of many, many more villainesses to add to the list, but since Tac specifically asked for final-boss-type opponents, I limited it to those sorts of characters, save in a few cases where the final boss was male (or effectively genderless, in the cases of Chrono Trigger and Bravely Default) but there was a significantly-powerful female secondary antagonist or underling shortly before the last encounter.

If we just wanted to list any female villain we'd be here all day <_<

[Just a Mort]

To be honest, taste is in the tongue of the one eating. One man's meat is the other man's poison. So what I like may not be what you like, and neither of us are wrong.

To me, I may feel it's mangled, but to you it may taste familiar and thus is good.

[John Napier 698]

By the way, Freehold, Happy (early) Birthday!

[NobodysHome]

And those Strange Aeons folks are at it again.

[Terrinam]

The only reason I included Brahne to begin with is because of the amount of death and destruction she caused before she was taken down. She did present a credible threat to an entire continent before she was killed.

I tried to pick ones that presented very credible threats to everyone around them, for the most part. Couple entries picked for different reasons.

But, still good ones on my list not disputable.

[Scintillae]

Sadly, there will be no more Crimson Throne until January.

[lisamarlene]

Just a Mort wrote:

My family liked the Italianized Chinese food in Italy. There’s no accounting for bad taste….I think they couldn’t get used to Italian food that anything marginally Chinese was an improvement. Me? I sat in the room and ate canned tuna. I told them, count me out, I’m not spoiling my Italian vacation by eating Italianized Chinese food. And also I was sick with a sore throat that day so wasn’t too keen on going out.

There was once that I sprinkled chilli powder on top of my spaghetti instead of Oregano. I suppose I didn’t pay attention to the spice bottle either…and I should have given it a good sniff. Though Aglio Olio involves chilli flakes on your spaghetti.

BTW – don’t take me TOO seriously. I’m the kind of person who will start yelling blasphemy, and heresy, when food doesn’t come up to what I feel it should be.

Call me a purist.

When I lived in Rome, Chinese was my go-to meal when I needed a break from Italian. The menu was guaranteed to be free of lentils.

[lisamarlene]

John Napier 698 wrote:

By the way, Freehold, Happy (early) Birthday!

Oh, good. When you get your Christmas card, just cross out "Christmas" and write "Birthday".

[lisamarlene]

Scintillae wrote:

Sadly, there will be no more Crimson Throne until January.

I know this pain too well.

Lookin' at YOU, Nobody's Home.

[John Napier 698]

Not really, his birthday is December 21st.

[John Napier 698]

Closing the garage and about to go home. Good night, everyone.

[Tacticslion]

Orthos wrote:

John Napier 698 wrote:

And, to be clear, that's Cortana post-rampancy and post-logic plague.

... maybe that's not the best name to attach to your modern-day Clippy, Microsoft.

Heh.

(Also hilarious: Microsoft, "No, we're really good guys, not seeking to dominate and enforce our views upon peons by spying into your private files. As an aside, we'll name our helper quasi-A.I. after one of the most vicious killers in our personal fictional universe - a once-helpful A.I. that saved the world but turned evil; no big, and don't read anything into it.")

[Tacticslion]

The problem of most female villains is that they, like most end-bosses, are effectively one-and-done.

Those that are recurring are often lower-tier, subservient, or otherwise not really "primary" antagonists.

Like, I love me some Zeal and Morag and Heurodis, but they're all kind of finished forever at the end of the game.

Meanwhile the Valsharess, Carmilla, and Mileena are all subservient (and ol' Matron Mother Synvil, though I love her, is ultimately a patsy that dies off for good).

One of the great things about Ganon and Bowser is they are always there, always getting back. And while Bowser is often defeated, anyone who's seen his work in either of the 'Galaxy games can't really think he's "not a threat" what with nearly rewriting the universe to his own, personal flavor and, in the process, messing it up so badly that they literally had to hit an "early reset" button on the omniverse to make everything work again at the end of the first one.

Orthos wrote:

I am extremely remiss that I have somehow managed to neglect both SHODAN ("System Shock" series) and GLaDOS ("Portal" series) on my above list. Both malevolent female AIs.

... both of which are recurring and seemingly able to escape death.

Does anyone know if System Shock II ended in her forever death, or just kind of sort of seemed like it might take a while before she got better?

Terrinam wrote:

Cortana, the AI from the Halo series.

Similar question on the Halo front about Cortana: she get better, or gone forever?

One of the things about Ganon and Bowser is... they aren't always unrepentant villains. Yes, even Ganon.

Bowser has many, public and oft-discussed failures at villainy. But he's had numerous successes, too, and actually has constituted a threat to many different lands - not just a single country, like Hyrule (though, admittedly, those different villainies may be by different cyclical incarnations, rather than the same lifetime/reality). He loves his family. He actively seeks Peach's hand in marriage, even if he's doing stupid things along the way. He's cartoony, but he's also a villain, and he has been able to pull off powerful schemes.

Ganon actually has quiet moments of reflection where he actively wants things to go differently for everyone. He wants the Gerudo to succeed, and he wants to hold Hyrule because he's jealous of their success and bitter at the Gerudo's place in the world (especially after their defeat in whatever combat raged in Hyrule prior to OoT) - this can be seen, rather clearly, in his discussion of things in WW (an extremely underrated title with extremely deep lore). Even as far back as LttP, his story hints at a much more conflicted creature than simply, "YO, I BE EVIL AND ALL HATE FOREVER" (though there is little to him beyond that).
Point in fact, I suspect that if Ganon was just a normal man, he'd actually be a minor footnote in history. Perhaps a thief, a sorcerer, and a warlord - or perhaps not, he might have actually been an enlightened ruler, or even won concessions for his people -, but not much would come of his reign other than, "and that's how it goes" with the Garudo. The problem, though, is that he is not normal. Not because he's the possessor of the Triforce of power, no, that's not unlikely for someone like him. No, it's because he's actually the reincarnation of the hatred of a demon lord. And that is what makes him so awful/recurring.

The Dark Queen is just... eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil, it seems, and I can't find any motivation other than that. Anyone here know?

The A.I.s actually each have their own motivations, too, though. Actually having three different A.I.s with their own motivations makes me think of the Triune, and wondering if the three might, in fact, have an interesting discussion/essence melding, and what would result from that.
(Terrifying, true, but I also wonder what might get sorted out from all that.)
As an aside, Caroline was definitively not deleted. Not only is GLaDOS a liar, but the opera indicates, if nothing else, some element of her humanity - and Caroline - remains.

Those mentioned, Parasyte Eve's "Eve" is a great villain. Tell me more about PM:TYD's Shadow Queen?

For the rest... sadly, I don't know enough about them. Jesse from Team Rocket sort of functions as recurring enough for Pokemon, but she's not a true leader or power, there, and we're far enough removed from the Pokemon universes that those aren't things I can really use to incorporate.

Thanks! You've definitely kicked up some thoughts and figurings on my part! I appreciate it!

I'd actually love any more antagonists (male or female) of that quality you could name!

(And the mention of people like Zeal or Valsharess or Brahne have been helpful, too.)

[Just a Mort]

Happy early Bdae Freehold DM!

Happy Birthday to you,
You are born in the zoo!
There are tigers and lions,
And Monkeys like you!

[Tacticslion]

Can I be the lion?
I might be the lion...
I'm the lion!

[gran rey de los mono]

I'm not sure what to do. For tomorrow's game, they should get to go on a boat, and I've been planning to have the captain perform a ceremony to please the water spirits as they cast off. Nothing too weird, just some offerings of wine, burning some herbs, things like that. Oh, and singing the "sacred song" Come Sail Away. But yesterday I thought to myself "This guy is supposed to be a former gladiator who won his freedom. It would be fun if he spoke and acted like a pro wrestler." and have been planning to voice him like Iron Will, the minotaur from My Little Pony. However, after experimenting, I'm not sure I can sing the song in that voice without completely wrecking my throat. So, I ask you, FaWtl. Do I skip the song, skip the voice, or do both and possibly be unable to speak for the rest of the night?

[Just a Mort]

Skip the song. Or get someone to help you out with the song, record it down with phone, then play at table.

[John Napier 698]

Regarding Cortana: Rampancy is the end-stage of a "smart" A.I. A rampant A.I. devotes too many compute cycles to thinking, and allows its maintenance routines to decay. This gives the A.I. a megalomaniacal god-complex. The Logic Plague is the A.I. equivalent of a Flood Infection. There's no coming back from that either.

Now, at the Beginning of Halo 5, Dr. Halsey is shown putting Cortana into a storage module. A prison, as it were. So, Cortana survives, but is unable to interact with the outside universe. But then, this is just supposition on my part. Your mileage may vary.

[gran rey de los mono]

Just a Mort wrote:

Skip the song. Or get someone to help you out with the song, record it down with phone, then play at table.

Can't record it. I don't have a smartphone.

[Just a Mort]

No laptop? Cassette tape?

Can your phone take videos? I think they come with sound included too...

[gran rey de los mono]

Just a Mort wrote:

No laptop? Cassette tape?

Can your phone take videos? I think they come with sound included too...

Laptop doesn't have a camera/microphone. I got rid of all my cassettes long ago. Phone has a still camera, but no video or audio recording function.

[Just a Mort]

Are you running with your lap top or not? You could try you tube.

Alternatively just sing a verse and get on with it.

[Limeylongears]

Just a Mort wrote:

Nobody's Home- well after TL mentioned fried cream cheese wontons...I shudder to think how much more Americans would mangle Chinese food ;)

Hey you don't see me adding chilli sauce to tomato based spaghetti sauce, right?

Well, I honestly did it once, but the tomato sauce bottle and chilli sauce bottle looked alike and I wasn't paying sufficient attention...

It was an honest mistake, I swear!

I like putting chili in spaghetti sauce.

Mind you, I like lots of things, at least some of which probably ought to be Banned.

[Just a Mort]

Eh. I have a colleague who goes traveling with chilli sauce and chilli flakes. She can't live without chilli in her food. If you're one of those people who are addicted to chilli then I genuinely feel sorry for you.

Again I could use some training in the spiciness department. Like I can't take most Thai green curries and Ma la hot pot even though I genuinely like them.

[Just a Mort]

Also gran - make peppermint infusions for your throat. Drink honey mixed with a little lemon.

[Terrinam]

Tacticslion wrote:

Ganon actually has quiet moments of reflection where he actively wants things to go differently for everyone. He wants the Gerudo to succeed, and he wants to hold Hyrule because he's jealous of their success and bitter at the Gerudo's place in the world (especially after their defeat in whatever combat raged in Hyrule prior to OoT) - this can be seen, rather clearly, in his discussion of things in WW (an extremely underrated title with extremely deep lore). Even as far back as LttP, his story hints at a much more conflicted creature than simply, "YO, I BE EVIL AND ALL HATE FOREVER" (though there is little to him beyond that).

The Zelda series is iffy on whether or not Ganon is the primary antagonist. The games establish that Ganon is a manifestation (essentially, a servant) of Demise, being sent against Hylia and her chosen Hero (Zelda and Link). Hyrule Historia says Ganon is Demise, but the games that discuss it always hold the two as different beings.

If you go primarily by game canon, Ganon is just the general of the primary antagonist, who you have only fought in just one game of the entire series. If you go by Hyrule Historia, then Ganon is the primary antagonist. This may also be why Ganon is so conflicted as a character, since if he's just a servant then he's having times when he's questioning the will of his master.

But no matter what, the primary antagonist of the Zelda series is Demise. Demise is why the Master Sword exists, and why Zelda and Link keep getting reborn. Whether or not you accept Ganon as the antagonist depends on which theory about Ganon's relationship with Demise you accept.

This is why I don't bother trying to define who's the primary anything with the Zelda series. Not even the official canon agrees on the subject. That is also why I went with level of threat presented, since even if Ganon is not the primary antagonist, he is the greatest threat to Hyrule. It's Ganon who keeps showing up to conquer the place.

Quote:

Similar question on the Halo front about Cortana: she get better, or gone forever?

Neither, from the looks of things. It appears she was simply put in storage.

Now, while the Halo universe established it is possible for an AI to come back from rapancy, it also established this takes a really long time. There's only one AI that I know of which did it, and that AI was created by the Forerunners.

She's a lingering threat waiting to return.

[Terrinam]

Just a Mort wrote:

Again I could use some training in the spiciness department. Like I can't take most Thai green curries and Ma la hot pot even though I genuinely like them.

Start with habanero and work your way up from there.

[Orthos]

Quote:

Does anyone know if System Shock II ended in her forever death, or just kind of sort of seemed like it might take a while before she got better?

SHODAN is still out there.

Spoiler:

She takes over another human host and gets out in an escape pod before the ship goes kaboom.

[Orthos]

Quote:

Tell me more about PM:TYD's Shadow Queen?

Spoiler:

She's a demonic spirit thing who was sealed away behind the titular door. She actually spends the first part of her active presence in the game possessing and acting through Peach. You don't see what she herself looks like until the final battle.

It's also unclear as to whether defeating her destroys her or just puts her back in her box.