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This was originally a response to a post in another thread, but I realized that it's rather off-topic, and possibly worthy of discussion.
My post is rather ranty, and I apologize for that; I like the idea of Vitality/Wounds, but I know from personal experience that it does not work for the reasons I lay out below.
I wonder if anyone has used the Vitality/Wound Point variant in a Pathfinder ruleset.Ugh.
The Vitality/Wound Point Mechanic is AWFUL.
It's not a bad idea, but the mechanics behind it are either generally a waste of time (keep crit rules as they currently are) or game-breaking awful (crits go straight to wounds).
I played a Star Wars d20 Revised Edition campaign. There were 6 players, we started at level 1. New Jedi Order Era, DM using the pre-published Vong campaign as a guideline. Everyone had a blast, until around 9th or 10th level.
At that point, characters picked up the Improved Critical feat (weapons threatened on a 19-20 instead of just a 20), and either improved two-weapon fighting or burst-fire (or autofire mastery, or whatever - I forget the feat name). Combined with heavy blaster rifles and lightsaber damage boosts, this meant that everyone started making 4-5 attacks a round for 3d10 or 4d8 damage a hit.
Armor didn't improved defenses (in fact, it lowered your AC and provided only a small amount of DR), that came from class, and it wasn't nearly enough. Combat went from interesting and dynamic to "which side can get more one-crit-kills first". The only way the GM was able to challenge us without killing us was to use custom-built NPCs with the very best Vong armor available and who spent every single one of their feats on Toughness (+3 wound points).
We gave up after another two sessions; we were very sorry to see the game go.
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The alternative, of course, is to keep crit rules as they are, and have Wounds only lost once all Vitality has been depleted. Again, it's not a bad idea, but getting the rules to work is rather complicated, and the net benefit is very minimal.
Here's a few questions:
How rapidly do characters recover Vitality?
How Rapidly do characters recover Wounds?
Do NPC classes grant Vitality Points?
What about Poisons, Diseases, Bleed effects, and the like? Do they still trigger when the attack onyl deals Vitality damage? If so, what is the in-game explanation (the mechanical explanation is "they have to in order to keep things fair, balanced, and simple", but an in-game explanation is needed as well).How does Healing Magic interact with Vitality - does it work like it does now with hit points, or is it significantly increased? If Wounds is the same, then Vitality should logically be boosted. If Vitality is the same, then Wounds should logically be healed at a much reduced rate. The simple answer is, of course, "they both work the same as they do now", but why bother changing hit Points if you are just going to keep everything the exact same?
How does Healing Magic interact with Wounds - does it work like it does now with hit points, or is it significantly reduced? If so, by how much?
What is the impact of how Vitality and Wounds interact with Healing Magic on the entire game, given that, as the rules work now, the way 99% of hit points are recovered is through healing magic?
You need to evaluate the last set questions for every single healing spell in the game, along with fast healing, regeneration, the heal skill, etc.
That's enough to drive the point home, I think; there's more I could bring up.
Vitality/Wounds is a wonderful idea, but it completely fails in actual play.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I think Vitality/Wounds is a fantastic idea. I would absolutely love to see a Skill-Based Magic/Spellcasting system that had mages spending Vitality (and wounds if desperate) to power their magic. I think such a game, running on the d20 mechanics, would be completely awesome.
It's just that I've never seen a d20 system that actually implements the idea well. Star Wars d20 Revised did great at the very low levels, but even without the heaps of extra attacks and the Improved Critical feat, it still would have failed eventually.
It's one thing when a crit hits you for 10 wounds and bypasses the 20 vitality you've got at 3rd level, but it's another thing entirely when it's a crit for 20 damage that jumps over 100+ vit points.
And really, that's the problem. That's the fundamental issue at the very heart of why Vitality/Wounds does not work. Save-Or-Die spells in 3.5 were boring, and reduced high-level fights to who rolled poorly more often. Vitality/Wounds puts the Save-Or-Die into the hands of the Fighters instead of the Wizards, but it's the same fundamental problem, and it needs a viable solution before the mechanic can be used.
As you may have gathered from my ranting post, I've given the mechanic alot of thought, and I just do not see a way around the one-hit-kill that's eventually guaranteed to start happening as characters advance.
At least, I don't see any way around it besides capping players at level 6 or so, and that's no fun for me. Besides, there's already a system that does that, and they didn't use Vit/Wounds either.
Anyway, that's my rant, my experience, and my thoughts on the idea. I don't suppose anyone sees a solution?
Monte Cook laid out a nice Vitality/Wounds system in the Book of Experimental Might.
I have considered using it when I run my Carrion Crown campaign.
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The Star Wars Saga approach was far superior, integrating the flavor of vitality and wounds, but keeping everything within the concepts of the traditional abstract hit point mechanics.
Saga is nice, and generally a superior system to Revised, though it has it's own problems. The Jedi class is way too niche - there are really only two different characters you can build that keep up mechanically (strength-based Acro-twink or Dex-based Portable Cover).
Also, it breaks apart around 12th-15th level, when the "3/4ths BAB" and "1/2 level skills" run into the wall of "+1 all defenses every level for everyone always". Until then, the skill classes can make a big difference, but after that, it's Soldier/Acrotwink or go home.
Most importantly, it doesn't use Vitality/Wounds. It's a nice system, overall, I only have the two above issues with it, and I'm happy you brought it up so other people looking for a Star Wars game know which system to go for, but it's not really relevant to the discussion at hand.
Incidentally, if you want to talk about Saga further, make a new thread and stick a link here - I'd be happy to join in.
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Monte Cook laid out a nice Vitality/Wounds system in the Book of Experimental Might.
I have considered using it when I run my Carrion Crown campaign.
Really? I have not heard of this book, much less the Vit/Wound system within it. I'm a fan of Monte Cook's work; I've got all three of his Eldrich Might books, and the only reason I don't have Plotus is because it's 3.5 and not pathfinder.
I will look into the book more. In the meantime, and for those following along at home, can you summarize the relevant sections?
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I have long toyed with various uses of vitality/wounds, to various degrees of success.
The longest run applied them thusly: a PC gains CON mod + 1 per level as wounds, rolls normal HD (max value at 1st level) as vitality.
Healing spells affect vitality for their variable part, and wounds for their fixed part; so a 2nd level cleric using Cure Light Wounds heals 1d8 vitality points and 2 wound points. Any excess heals the other value (so a PC with no wound points lost would be healed by a full 1d8+2 vitality points in the previous example).
Regeneration/fast healing heals vitality as normal and wounds at per-minute rate.
The Toughness feat adds to both vitality and wound points, making it really useful for any class.
As this whole subsystem was used in conjunction with armor as DR (and a class based Defense value similar to BAB), it made more sense, IMHO.
Crits did not bypass DR, but applied base damage to wounds and multiplied damage to vitality; precision damage added 1 point per dice to the inflicted wound value.
Lethal, but liked.
Recently I've come up with a whole rehash of the conditions system (blinded, stunned, sickened, shaken, etc.), converting it into a 5 class, 5 type stackable value mechanic, that hopefully will be easier to use than the actual system and does not need any differentiation between vitality and wounds, but will go back to the catch-it-all HP value.
I've been playing around with a variant version, but haven't implemented it.
Basically taking the -hp and moving it to a stat called vitality. Vitality is your Con Score + Level.
You are shaken and staggered whenever you take Vitality damage.
Endurance Feat adds +4 vitality points and removes shaken condition
Die Hard Feat adds +4 vitality points and removes staggered condition
Save or Die spells would return to their previous incarnations but deal vitality damage directly (save for HP damage or fail for Vitality Damage). This keeps save or die spells scary, but not necessarily as deadly, especially for fighters/rangers and anyone else who takes the feats.
Critical hits do not target Vitality, although I have thought about Rogue Talents that target Vitality.
When you run out of HP you take Vitality damage instead.
For simplicity sake, healing is the same for vitality or HP, although I have thought about creating something similar to lessor restoration for healing vitality and have it return at a rate of 1 point a day. Since the effects of vitality damage are high, having it heal the same as HP makes the character more payable and the game more enjoyable.
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That system strikes me as... hmm.
So, I'm a first level Dwarven Fighter. I've got a con of 18, because I know I'm dealing with vit/wounds, and a strength of 14, because of my con. I've got a chain shirt (guessing DR 4), because I can't afford the really nice stuff at first level. I've got a shield, which presumably adds to my defense/AC instead of DR (doesn't make sense as DR). I've got a Waraxe that presumably does 1d10+2.
Thanks to my Con, I've got 14 vitality and 4 wounds.
I'm fighting a mirror image of myself, who lands a crit on me. I'm taking 1d10+2 Wound Damage, -4 DR. I take an average of 7.5-4=3.5 wound damage.
That... actually sort of works. Splitting the crit and adder damage off isn't bad from a conseptual point of view, but the implementaiton feels kind of clunky. Weapon Specialization? +1 weapon bonus? Sneak Attack? Flaming Weapon? How do these work?
I would like to know specifics on how you worked out the AC thing.
I'm trying to figure out how the Dwarf above would fair against a crit from himself at 5th, 10th, and 15th level, but it's clunky. I'm also concerned about the two-handed Strength build archtype, but again, working it out at 5th, 10th, and 15th level is giving me a headache.
It's necessary to account for magic items, feats, class abilities, and everything else, and doing so in my head is proving awkward. That might be the mechanic, or the fact that it's just new and different OMG, not sure which.
The one I'd been toying with was basicallyto get rid of rules that are obnoxious or downright hated in my groups. I was also trying to make a nod towards those who hate save or die effects. Note: this was made during 3.5.
1) Hit Point rules work the way they always do.
2) There are no "Drain" effects.
3) You get Wound Points equal to your Constitution + Level. You loose Wound Points after you loose Hit Points. If you have no more Hit Points but still have Wound Points, you are Staggered (Unless you had the Die Hard Feat). If you reached 0 to -10 Wound Points, you fell unconcious, -11 or below means you're dead.
4) You may only bypass Hit Points certain ways: Level Drain, Constitution Damage/Drain, Bleeding Damage, spells such as Disintergrate or Finger of Death, etc. In these cases the effects would cause you to loose WP equal to the what ever the effect would normally be if you failed the save. If you loose WP but still have HP, you are Staggered for 1 Round.
Example: A Vampire's Energy Drain would deal 2 WP damage per Slam unless you save versus a DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha. The Blood Drain would deal 1d4 WP, though I'd rule for no Save against this one since the Vampire has to pin you first, but that's just me.
Example: Disintergrate does 5d6 (this was based on the 3.5 version) directly to WP on a failed save. On a successful save you take 5d6 to HP.
I'm leaving out a lot but hopefully that gives you a good overview.
Crits bypassing Vitality simply doesn't work in a desirable manner especially with the buckets of dice that high level characters are typically throwing around. You end up needing to remove feats like vital strike, changing sneak attack, etc.
I think the only way for it to be done in an acceptable manner is to have it so that the Vitality Track needs to be depleted prior to the Wound track taking damage.
In a sense you are dividing the HP track into 2 components. I think this is desirable from the standpoint of decentralizing healing and reducing the healbot/wand of CLW trap. If vitality points return to base value after 15 minutes rest or so you don't have to waste spells on healing unless you need to recover more rapidly such as between a quick series of encounters.
Some stuff like poisons are ability damage/drain. Con Drain would do it's normal brutal job.
NPCs are tricky. I would be tempted to say that NPCs with NPC classes only get wound points modified by size and feats like toughness. This would mean that even high level arisotcrats and warriors could get chopped down in droves.
Monsters that are less than CR = APL -2 or -3 could be Wound Point modified by size only. This would make them more friendly to use as mooks and would make evocation blasts much more desirable.
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That system strikes me as... hmm.
So, I'm a first level Dwarven Fighter. I've got a con of 18, because I know I'm dealing with vit/wounds, and a strength of 14, because of my con. I've got a chain shirt (guessing DR 4), because I can't afford the really nice stuff at first level. I've got a shield, which presumably adds to my defense/AC instead of DR (doesn't make sense as DR). I've got a Waraxe that presumably does 1d10+2.
Thanks to my Con, I've got 14 vitality and 4 wounds.
I'm fighting a mirror image of myself, who lands a crit on me. I'm taking 1d10+2 Wound Damage, -4 DR. I take an average of 7.5-4=3.5 wound damage.
The mirror image obviously suffers the same. Note that the 1d10+2 waraxe (which looks halfway between a battleaxe and a greataxe) does the usual multiplied damage value to vitality (average again, 7.5x3=22.5), and any points exeeding the vitality value goes to wounds points - which means death, as usual for a character receiving a crit from such an attack at 1st level.
The wounds/vitality subsystem "goes live" at different level ranges considering crit damage, at lower levels is more something reflecting serious damage after some lesser scrapping.
I wouldn't do the number crunching based on crits (rolling at the table is way different than doing table math), but YMMV.
That... actually sort of works. Splitting the crit and adder damage off isn't bad from a conseptual point of view, but the implementaiton feels kind of clunky. Weapon Specialization? +1 weapon bonus? Sneak Attack? Flaming Weapon? How do these work?
I would like to know specifics on how you worked out the AC thing.
Weapon specialization adds to base damage (eg. longsword=1d8+2): the value is applied both to the non-multiplied value for wounds, and to the multiplied value for vitality. Same for +X magic enhancements.
Sneak attacks (precision based damage) and flaming magical qualities add +1 wound damage per dice, and the usual roll(s) to vitality.Yes, shield bonus goes to AC/Defense rather than DR. The parry/block immediate action - yet another subsystem of mine - allows however to put added value to the armor DR.
AC class based bonus is based off tables from Green Ronin's Advanced Gamemaster's Manual (amazing-good-fair-poor), but it's not considered a dodge bonus: it is instead something that stands on its own, such as the BAB.
I'm trying to figure out how the Dwarf above would fair against a crit from himself at 5th, 10th, and 15th level, but it's clunky. I'm also concerned about the two-handed Strength build archtype, but again, working it out at 5th, 10th, and 15th level is giving me a headache.
It's necessary to account for magic items, feats, class abilities, and everything else, and doing so in my head is proving awkward. That might be the mechanic, or the fact that it's just new and different OMG, not sure which.
TBH, I never did any serious math evaluation of the system at the various levels; I'm more an empiric trial-and-error guy than a number cruncher.
I thought it more as a concept of verisimilitude (not realism!), and after approval by my players, used it.
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The main difference between Hit Points and (Star Wars style) Vitality Points description-wise is that Hit Points allow you to convert a solid hit (which, in real life, would maim or kill you outright) into a cinematic glancing blow, resulting in a 'flesh wound' or 'scratch', whereas Vitality Points allow you to avoid the hit completely.
This means that, concept-wise, Vitality points have some serious issues when implimented as straight HP substitutes - not only the problem with nullifying poison and similar 'needs a wound to work' attacks you mention, but anything which requires even a touch to work, nullifying many spells. Their logic also quickly falls down as to why bigger damage attacks cause you to lose more Vitality Points - shouldn't it take more character resource to avoid that low damage attack which got an attack roll ten more than needed to hit than it does to avoid the high damage attack which only just hit? If you're not actually hit by the attack, then the damage itself shouldn't be relevant...
The main advantage of the Vitality Point system is that the things come back quickly. There's no real reason that it'd be hard to house rule that Hit Points do that - as long as the bad guys and good guys get the same benefits it should even out.
Of course, the Wound Point element is meant to allow for some long term damage as well. The simplest way to impliment something similar would be to rule that once Hit Points are gone all damage is applied as Constitution damage (i.e. there's no such thing as 'negative Hit Points'). That actually makes a lot more sense in some ways than the existing rules (getting badly wounded messes up your chances of resisting disease or fighting the effects of poison - i.e. it weakens you overall). Since 'negative HP' wouldn't exist, the HP per level loss from taking Con damage after losing all your HP wouldn't do you any more damage, but it would effect how far you can be healed (giving a nice 'long term effect' from being badly wounded).
These two changes (Hit Points return quickly and damage after Hit Points are gone goes to Con) are simple to impliment, and don't really require any further rules changes to deal with things like touch spells, Cure spells, poisons, etc..
In this case Cure spells and the like would generally be considered less useful than they are now (depending on how long a time period Hit Points take to return), whilst Restoration spells and the like would be considered more useful.
How long should such a system say Hit Points take to return? Well, that's up to individual groups to decided. The existing daily healing rate per hour leaves Cure spells pretty vital, whereas per minute leaves them with some utility, and prevents huge periods of waiting around for Hit Points to recover. 'All Hit Points return after every fight' is an interesting option, making Cure spells only really useful during combat, and making PCs really tough... but also making hit-and-run tactics pretty difficult to pull off (since both sides are likely to just start back at square one after each 'skirmish'). Healing rate taking a full turn action is also an interesting option, as it allows for a character to tactically step out of combat to 'take a breather'... as long as they're not attacked / harassed whilst trying to do so (old time Champions players will know this tactic well).
Hopefully some food for thought there...
That system strikes me as... hmm.
Thanks to my Con, I've got 14 vitality and 4 wounds.
You will have 14 Vit and either 14 (Full con score)/ 15 (Con score + LVL) Wounds
Its a deadly system, yet, easy to figure it out.- It Gives me a MERP Flashback, when you where able to get an open crit with a sling and kill a epic character with a lucky shot.-
Vitality and wounds only work if you are trying to add a level of realism to the game. I like the system and have used it. It turns characters from super human into flesh and blood. I also like armor as DR but that is a bit broken to me.
Using vitality is the only time I make players make crit confirmation checks but I am old school.
Conan from MGP had a better adaptation of the rules but with limited magic removed many of the pitfalls. I also added player level bonuses into wound points and allowed vitality to be recovered very quickly versus wound points.
Monte Cook laid out a nice Vitality/Wounds system in the Book of Experimental Might.
I have considered using it when I run my Carrion Crown campaign.
Really? I have not heard of this book, much less the Vit/Wound system within it. I'm a fan of Monte Cook's work; I've got all three of his Eldrich Might books, and the only reason I don't have Plotus is because it's 3.5 and not pathfinder.
I will look into the book more. In the meantime, and for those following along at home, can you summarize the relevant sections?
I don't have my book in front of me, but I'll do my best.
Monte wrote on his site:
"Someone asked me about hit points and how do I explain them. I gave him the standard answer, that they're a mixture of abstract luck/skill and actual physical stamina and toughness. But right there in the middle of the event, a small but nifty idea came to me. I decided to give everyone an additional number of hit points equal to their Con score. That number, plus their level, represents the actual physical damage a character can take. The rest of their hit points (from their HD) represent training and luck. I'm going to call the former "Health" and the latter "Grace," I think. (Different types of creatures will have a different ratio of health and grace, so for example almost all of a giant's hit points represent toughness.) You lose Grace before you lose Health. First and foremost, this enables me to verbally describe what's happening in a combat in such a way that it conveys information to the players. If they hear me say that a blow seemed to really do some actual damage to a foe, they'll know that he's probably close to defeat."
"This small change not only gives starting characters a few more hit points, but it helps solidify how I've always seen hit points and how they reflect action in movies pretty well. The main character (or the main villain) seems to take an absurd amount of punishment throughout the film and not be too affected by it. But right at the end, the punches (or falls, stabs, whatever) suddenly really seem to matter a lot more. He's lost all his grace and he's down to just health. In other words, movie fights are based on the principle that you wear someone down until you can move in for the really cool finishing blow. This helps set that up without changing anything mechanically, because mechanically, a hit point is still just a hit point. I don't want to go the old Alternity/Star Wars route with vitality and whatever it was called. However, I may do a few funky tweaks with healing and hit point recovery and how it interacts with these Health and Grace."
/end Monte Cook quote ;)
If I remember correctly - grace heals fast out of combat and health heals slowly. Cure spells, potions, etc. restore Grace first, then Health.
I like the way the system sounds - and it plays well with me wanting to change healing and healing dependent magic in my games.
I actually like this (either in Monte's version or Wound/Vitality) for games with little or no magical healing. Means your players can actually be whatever class they wish and not have to worry about who has the healing nearly as much.
This would work really well with the new Pure Steam setting. While it doesn`t specifically say low/no magic the setting speaks that magic users are not trusted and rare. But firearms are much more prevenlent. Going to be a short game if you cannot have your trusty cleric heal the party between encounters. With this system you can recover much faster, atleast for vitality/grace. Depending on your play style you could it recover as much as level+con/hour or as the book has, recovering it all after 8 hours rest.
It also means that 1st level fights are going to last alot longer however. If your going to apply it to every creature and NPC you`ll be adding a good 10+ hp to most creatures. Good news is it doesn`t change high levels much, 10 more HP past 6th level isn`t going to be game changing.
I did like Saga rules that if you get into you wounds you were fatigued, means that bad guy gets to try to crawl away once he's in his wounds but will have a very hard time truely escaping. But it isn`t inherently a death sentance for a player. Also gives them the chance to surrender. I did like the NPC's didn`t have vitality but it broke at higher levels when you were slaughtering same level NPC's because they had no more HP then low level NPCs.
My thoughts anyways is that this wound/vitality isn`t great for the standard D&D game but excellent for one with low or no healing magic.
Maybe I read the crit rules wrong for wounds/vitality but don`t you just do normal damage to vitality and then the crit multiplier as damage to the wounds? Means that at high level even when you`re critically hit you won`t die instantly, repeated crit hits get deadly though.