Solution: cheap, easily accessible watertight bags/plugged powder horns.
If you drop a pre-loaded musket into the river, then you have to reload it.
Done.
The same thing that happens to the archer.
thats the what we're going with at the table right now however the other gunslinger didnt buy a oiled bag. so right now he's sol.
Sure he did. That's what the gunpowder comes in.
thats the what we're going with at the table right now however the other gunslinger didnt buy a oiled bag. so right now he's sol.
Well then that's his own fault then.
I think it breaks immersion to reduce the level of the character's professional competence to the level of the players knowledge of the job. If the gunslinger should have had waterproof equipment, then he has water proof equipment.
Aye, the whole player and character knowledge thing runs both ways. If the character would know about something, the player ought to be made aware. This one seems fairly handwavable and simply warn the player for future reference.
do you also remove the string from bows at night? Spend several hours taking a wet stone to a sword that is dinged up from hacking at a guy in full plate? What about that armor? Do you spend the day after a battle pounding out the inevitable dings from when that dragon cracked you with its claws? Do you roll to see how many arrows fall out of a quiver when they go into the water? Or just when they fall down?
Seriously people, there is a level of abstraction in the game. Firearms are hamstrung enough in this game, lets not make the 'oh you went into water, sorry all your 10 gp a shot powder is useless...
This came up before with the whole "is the wizard screwed if his spellbook gets wet?" thread.
As a GM myself, I wouldn't be so draconian as to screw over my PCs by wrecking their stuff like that. However, seeing as it would be perfectly realistic, I don't see why not.
do you also remove the string from bows at night? Spend several hours taking a wet stone to a sword that is dinged up from hacking at a guy in full plate? What about that armor? Do you spend the day after a battle pounding out the inevitable dings from when that dragon cracked you with its claws? Do you roll to see how many arrows fall out of a quiver when they go into the water? Or just when they fall down?
Seriously people, there is a level of abstraction in the game. Firearms are hamstrung enough in this game, lets not make the 'oh you went into water, sorry all your 10 gp a shot powder is useless...
+5
I sense a lot of the nitpickers have a hidden agenda.
do you also remove the string from bows at night? Spend several hours taking a wet stone to a sword that is dinged up from hacking at a guy in full plate? What about that armor? Do you spend the day after a battle pounding out the inevitable dings from when that dragon cracked you with its claws? Do you roll to see how many arrows fall out of a quiver when they go into the water? Or just when they fall down?
Seriously people, there is a level of abstraction in the game. Firearms are hamstrung enough in this game, lets not make the 'oh you went into water, sorry all your 10 gp a shot powder is useless...
+5
I sense a lot of the nitpickers have a hidden agenda.
Indeed they do.
This came up before with the whole "is the wizard screwed if his spellbook gets wet?" thread.
As a GM myself, I wouldn't be so draconian as to screw over my PCs by wrecking their stuff like that. However, seeing as it would be perfectly realistic, I don't see why not.
As I have said in another thread, we have to let go of our realism hangups the minute an old guy in his pajamas starts shooting fire and ice out of his fingertips at a spider the size of a Hummer.
As I have said in another thread, we have to let go of our realism hangups the minute an old guy in his pajamas starts shooting fire and ice out of his fingertips at a spider the size of a Hummer.This came up before with the whole "is the wizard screwed if his spellbook gets wet?" thread.
As a GM myself, I wouldn't be so draconian as to screw over my PCs by wrecking their stuff like that. However, seeing as it would be perfectly realistic, I don't see why not.
I know we are on the same side as far as giving the gunslinger a break, but I really hate this argument.
What is important to me in an RPG is that the world is internally consistent. Not necessarily realistic, because for a ton of reasons realism is impossible and tedious. That said, the magic of the game world lets people cast spells and lets dragons fly. That is a part of the inner logic of the game world. Another part of the internal logic of the game world is that the gunslinger knows how to take care of his equipment and how to keep it from being ruined by the environment.
I PERSONALLY don't have any idea how to care for a musket, but if I played someone who did, I'd expect that the musket be taken care of.
Just because wizards cast spells doesn't mean wet shot still fires. Just because dragon's fly doesn't mean a suit of armor fits anyone who finds it.
Messing up the internal logic of the game kills immersion for me, and getting into it is what I'm playing it for.
And fantasy technology is exactly the same as Early Modern Earth right? I mean, it's not conceivable that some enterprising fellows developed a water-resistant powder?
Know what I hate? I hate when the guy in a smoking jacket wades through a river and comes out on the other side devastating his foes by wielding tendrils of pure energy and imploding their minds, while the Gunslinger comes out of the river completely crippled.
Know what I play for? I play to have fun in a setting with the willing suspension of disbelief. If folks can't handle giving martial classes their hall pass of willing suspension, that's their personal issue. But I'll be damned if I let them get their paws on a perfectly viable fantasy concept and destroy it for everyone else.
EDIT: Please note that I was not trying to be deliberately volatile against you personally. As you can tell I am a staunch believer in equal coolness for both sides of the tracks, as it were.
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thats the what we're going with at the table right now however the other gunslinger didnt buy a oiled bag. so right now he's sol.
Do you check a player's character sheet everytime he/she has his wizard cast fireball to make sure the bat guano was stored in hermetically sealed tupperware containers? (do we really stop to think what happens to the excrement carried in the wizard's pockets when he goes for a swim?)
thats the what we're going with at the table right now however the other gunslinger didnt buy a oiled bag. so right now he's sol.Do you check a player's character sheet everytime he/she has his wizard cast fireball to make sure the bat guano was stored in hermetically sealed tupperware containers? (do we really stop to think what happens to the excrement carried in the wizard's pockets when he goes for a swim?)
+1
Black powder meets fireball :)
What we are talking about is environment here. There are other things to adventure besides goblins and dragons.
Do you characters make skill checks to climb? What happens of they fall?
Swims checks? drowning?
What about extreme cold and heat?
All this is adventuring.
If a character fails a bunch of swim checks instead of killing him off and drowning him, you can say he barely makes it to shore but all his gunpowder is wet, or his +2 dagger fell out of his scabbard and his now at the bottom of the river.
There are alot of interpretations to failing a swim check for example.
At my table, if there are a bunch of 1s from the archer does his bow string break? yes.
Rolling a 1 and misfiring is one thing, rolling a 1 and saying "you misfired you must have gotten some of your powder wet during that last river crossing" is essentially that same thing, just better.
If we are just rolling and number crunching that's not role playing it's number crunching.
Wizards can fail spells too, or does everyone just hand wave that?
Rolling a 1 at MOST tables (and all Ive played at) is an automatic fail anyway, so whats the big deal of this misfire issue, your going to miss anyway! Miss, misfire, big deal.
Adventurers can and do fail at tons of things every game session.
Quick draw the back up pistol and fire again!
I think the AoO/pistol whipping thing is a much bigger deal that needs to get fixed than misfires or who it's explained at each and every table.
As for sharpening weapons, in 1st edition there was actually rules in the book for it. IF you missed badly (1) you would get a -1 on your weapon until you sharpened it due to hitting a wall or what not.
I still play this way. But I hand wave it for magic weapons.
Do scrolls get damaged when wet? yes they do. Might your torches have issues if they get wet, for sure.
Water is an obstacle and an enemy in alot of adventures.
IF you can use fire spells to catch flammable material on fire, which will continue to burn, how would you put it out? Could you use water? Oh wait no, that wont work, because when we crossed that stream it didnt put my torch out! I need a spell to counter it.
Nonsense.
Even before Alchemist came out, I've seen character's loaded down with alchemist fire and acid. I've never had those clay or glass containers thing break on the character after getting wacked with a giant's club.
I think things like "your powder gets wet" is good if you're using critical fumbles on rolls. Also, I wouldn't have a fireball set off a character's gun powder but I would allow, for example, a Druid to cast Heat Metal on the gun to discharge a shot and/or make reloading it impossible until the spell ends, if the save is failed. To me this is the same as attempting a Sunder against the gun.
Even before Alchemist came out, I've seen character's loaded down with alchemist fire and acid. I've never had those clay or glass containers thing break on the character after getting wacked with a giant's club.
I think things like "your powder gets wet" is good if you're using critical fumbles on rolls. Also, I wouldn't have a fireball set off a character's gun powder but I would allow, for example, a Druid to cast Heat Metal on the gun to discharge a shot and/or make reloading it impossible until the spell ends, if the save is failed. To me this is the same as attempting a Sunder against the gun.
Heat metal wouldnt work. technically, gunpowder can get hot all it wants, it needs to be ignited by spark or open flame. warp wood would work as it would mess up the stock and grip.
If a player carried a ridiculous amount of potions, or pots full of acid or alchemist fire and somehow found annoying ways to use only those. I might ask him to make a save from falling really far (not stumbling) or if he got stepped on by a huge giant or something, there are rules for things like being crushed, damage for falling, and catastrophic death. so things like that would come in then,maybe you dont want to snuff the character out of existence, but you could destroy his potions or if you had the old potion miscibility table from 1st edition you could have that character take the effects of a mixed batch of potions.
Or at the very least, if that giant creature id step on and destroy said PC maybe he took the damage from all the acid and alchemy fire that he crushed as well?
most of the time however, if there are a bunch of things like that, they have made their way into a handy haversack.
I once had a PC with a vial of healing salve (of extra healing) back in the day, who fell a certain distance off a ladder that an enemy had cast warp wood on, the PC fell and would have died but the extra healing salve broke, and healed him.
Im not saying to bog the game down with "it rained and ruined everything" but when overwhelming amounts of flammable stuff comes into contact with overwhelming amounts of fire, have stuff burn.
If the character is immersed in water for tons and tons of rounds, but you dont want to drown him have his powder get ruined, or make the party expend time/resources or skills to dry it out of fix it somehow.
It's a challenge, not a "you're screwed", It's a story builder not a let's stop the story and bog this down all night over semantics
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Even before Alchemist came out, I've seen character's loaded down with alchemist fire and acid. I've never had those clay or glass containers thing break on the character after getting wacked with a giant's club.
I think things like "your powder gets wet" is good if you're using critical fumbles on rolls. Also, I wouldn't have a fireball set off a character's gun powder but I would allow, for example, a Druid to cast Heat Metal on the gun to discharge a shot and/or make reloading it impossible until the spell ends, if the save is failed. To me this is the same as attempting a Sunder against the gun.
There are things that will specifically target the hundred vials of alchemist fire that are wrapped around someone, bandoleer-style, such as shatter, or certain spell that specifically make you catch fire on a failed save... those "could" in my opinion, mess up a gunslinger a bit (not shatter if you use a powder horn, but the spells that make you catch fire with Reflex 15 could, on a failed save, I guess...
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What happens when you get your black powder wet? does it base come in oiled paper or did the gm just start laughing manically?
The same thing that happens to a wizard/ alchemist/ clerics scrolls when they get dunked... AKA nothing, most GMs aren't going to take all the character's inventories and compare them for how water prepped they are.
If you are the sort of GM who soaks gunpowder the you are probably the same GM who burns spellbooks and scrolls and smashes potions and alchemical substances. Most likely you are sitting at a table alone also.
What happens when you get your black powder wet? does it base come in oiled paper or did the gm just start laughing manically?
The same thing that happens to a wizard/ alchemist/ clerics scrolls when they get dunked... AKA nothing, most GMs aren't going to take all the character's inventories and compare them for how water prepped they are.
If you are the sort of GM who soaks gunpowder the you are probably the same GM who burns spellbooks and scrolls and smashes potions and alchemical substances. Most likely you are sitting at a table alone also.
+1
Everything in moderation. If the GM constantly and intentionally goes after your glass vials, or your gunpowder, or burns spellbooks, etc., then it's not fun. If it happens once in a while under semi-realistic and extreme circumstances, it's a load of fun.
For the incident in question, I would have ruled it similarly. I would allow that the stored powder was kept in waterproof containers, but the powder in the musket itself would need to be removed for the gun to function...
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Everything in moderation. If the GM constantly and intentionally goes after your glass vials, or your gunpowder, or burns spellbooks, etc., then it's not fun. If it happens once in a while under semi-realistic and extreme circumstances, it's a load of fun.
For the incident in question, I would have ruled it similarly. I would allow that the stored powder was kept in waterproof containers, but the powder in the musket itself would need to be removed for the gun to function...
I don't like the general concept of dealing with breakage but the bigger issue is you are consistent. Having everyone deal with occasional breakage is a matter of table preference. Singling out one character for special breakage rules is just being a jerk.
Also, some characters are kind of shafted inherently when you add breakage rules so there is some inherent imbalance introduced when you do this.
Heat metal wouldnt work. technically, gunpowder can get hot all it wants, it needs to be ignited by spark or open flame. warp wood would work as it would mess up the stock and grip.
If a player carried a ridiculous amount of potions, or pots full of acid or alchemist fire and somehow found annoying ways to use only those. I might ask him to make a save from falling really far (not stumbling) or if he got stepped on by a huge giant or something, there are rules for things like being crushed, damage for falling, and catastrophic death. so things like that would come in then,maybe you dont want to snuff the character out of existence, but you could destroy his potions or if you had the old potion miscibility table from 1st edition you could have that character take the effects of a mixed batch of potions.
Or at the very least, if that giant creature id step on and destroy said PC maybe he took the damage from all the acid and alchemy fire that he crushed as well?
most of the time however, if there are a bunch of things like that, they have made their way into a handy haversack.
I once had a PC with a vial of healing salve (of extra healing) back in the day, who fell a certain distance off a ladder that an enemy had cast warp wood on, the PC fell and would have died but the extra healing salve broke, and healed him.
Im not saying to bog the game down with "it rained and...
Honestly, whether heat metal would ignite a musket really is up to the DM as we'd need to know the temperature heat metal gets to besides "red-hot", the mixture of the gun powder, whether it uses a cartridge, etc. I believe you can ignite gun powder with out a spark if you have sufficient heat but I know you can do it with paper from the cartridge. I also don't know any one willing to try to put gun powder down a red-hot metal tube to test whether it would ignite from heat or not.
I'm inclined to work with players if they want to try X to get Y result. Sometimes cinematics are better then real world physics. Also, RAW:
A creature takes fire damage if its equipment is heated.
There is no differentiation between Heat damage and Fire damage.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on a lot of what you said. You fail a skill check, well rather then kill you I'll put you at a disadvantage for a while. Fell off a cliff? Didn't you have some healing potions on you? I'm all for those DM calls.
I'm against the "you get hit so start rolling saves for all of your gear". To me this is boring and would take way to much time. I prefer to kill my PCs with monsters, not micromanaging.
I think in first edition you used to have to make saves for every single magic item you had, the way it works now your items have your save. so you make one.
I was an explosives expert in the army. Black powder doesn't do anything if it's hot. Won't explode, now if it was contained in something like a cartridge so there was even pressure, and then super heated really fast, you could get an explosion but it woulddnt be very reliable.
I think in first edition you used to have to make saves for every single magic item you had, the way it works now your items have your save. so you make one.
I was an explosives expert in the army. Black powder doesn't do anything if it's hot. Won't explode, now if it was contained in something like a cartridge so there was even pressure, and then super heated really fast, you could get an explosion but it woulddnt be very reliable.
Now I see where you're coming from! I'm not talking about causing the gun to explode, I'm just talking about fouling a loaded shot and keeping some from reloading. I've also always used cartridges in my games and I would go for having it cook off because it's a bit more cinematic, especially if it's the player casting the spell.
Now I see where you're coming from! I'm not talking about causing the gun to explode, I'm just talking about fouling a loaded shot and keeping some from reloading. I've also always used cartridges in my games and I would go for having it cook off because it's a bit more cinematic, especially if it's the player casting the spell.I think in first edition you used to have to make saves for every single magic item you had, the way it works now your items have your save. so you make one.
I was an explosives expert in the army. Black powder doesn't do anything if it's hot. Won't explode, now if it was contained in something like a cartridge so there was even pressure, and then super heated really fast, you could get an explosion but it woulddnt be very reliable.
from what i can tell, the devs are going for non cartridged loads as the shot and powder are listed as separate prices.
but if you were cooking off a round, you would also run the risk of shooting your self (said druid casts spell, then you would have to run a random targeting roll (1-3 random empty space,4,5,6,7 targets infront of the facing of the slinger and 8 being the slingers foot and then have to make a roll with no bonuses, just straight d20, to see if it hit the random target, assuming one was indicated by the first roll)
but if you were cooking off a round, you would also run the risk of shooting your self (said druid casts spell, then you would have to run a random targeting roll (1-3 random empty space,4,5,6,7 targets infront of the facing of the slinger and 8 being the slingers foot and then have to make a roll with no bonuses, just straight d20, to see if it hit the random target, assuming one was indicated by the first roll)
Actually I'd just have the gun discharge into into empty space. If I'm using Hero Points and some one wants to spend one to get a mook shot. I'm not going to randomly decide where a sword ends up after a successful Disarm because there's a slim chance that it might hurt some one. If I want more realism in my games I'll use one that's more realistic.
As far as Gun mechanics go, I'll probably stick with what I've been using or go with Iron Kingdoms for the actual guns.