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According to the description of the Bardic Performance ability, the Bard can maintain a performance as a free action each round.
My question is simple: Can a Bard who uses a string instrument maintain his performance each round as a free action and also attack with a weapon as a standard action or as part of a full-round action?
It seems illogical since he couldn't possibly play his instrument and wield a weapon at the same time. Unless the Bard begins his performance by playing the tune, which then hangs in the air, continuing to be played without the Bard having to actually play his instrument. I think this would fit with the theme of the class, since the Bard's music is magical.
Well, anyone else ever consider something along these lines?
The bard doesn't have to perform to have his bardic performance ability work. It's completely untied to actually doing anything except have the correct component available (audio or visual).
Really? That's awesome. I always just assumed it did since each of the Performances required a certain rank in the Perform skill. Doh!
Thanks a bunch.
Um... you should actually read the bard then -- since you seemed to have missed where they completely took out the perform skill tax.
You can be a bard and never put a rank in any perform skill while still keeping all your class abilities (except versatile performance).
Hmm, looks like they did remove it in the description of for Bardic Performance. Though in the chapter on skills it refers you back to the Bard section for the Perform skill ranks required to use the different Bardic Performance abilities. I guess it just got carried over from 3.5.
I haven't read every inch of text in the Pathfinder books I own. I took note of the big changes, but that one seems to have eluded me.
Thanks again.
No problem -- bard is one of my favorite classes so I've been really pleased with most of the changes that the bard received (they were really needed).
That would be an interesting magical item.
I was thinking of letting bards use their musical instrument as their weapon, maybe even as a ranged weapon.
Bardic Instrument
Price 500 gp
Damage 1d8 Force
Range 30'
Special: Can be used at melee range without incurring an AoO.
Bonus Damage: Add Charisma Modifier to Damage
That is a pretty neat idea. I like it.
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The last Bard I played, the GM allowed for creative uses of weaponry to create music.
For instance, I had Perform: Percussion. I would snap and pop my whip in a staccato like fashion. I also had Perform: Stringed Instruments. I would twang the string on my bow, making it an impromptu harp/lyre. Of course I also had requisite performs in Dance and Singing too, but I liked to also do some "Hambone" or Juba style dance. With gauntlets and studded leather armor, I figured it would be a variety of noises available, with Percussion and Dance, a few realistic ways of translating a performance into a visual for the other players.
Juba, via Wiki and Hambone via Youtube .
See also more hambone, kinda like this
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The Shoanti Barbarians' Sun tribe have a special weapon, a special spear if I recall, that allows them to attack and the weapon produces music simultaneously.
Still, I'm not sure that Bards are intended to no longer require the act of performance to continue benefiting from Bardic Performance. Select snippets ...
"A Bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him," ....
"Each bardic performance has audible components, visual components, or both."
It seems to me that the reason you require these components is because you are performing. It simply doesn't make sense to me that as a bard, your spellcasting requires the verbal component of song, recitation, or music -- but your bardic performance doesn't, instead requiring only that you talk about the weather, or make rude gestures. To say the contrary smells a little like the arguments that if the book says you don't have to breathe, then you don't have to.
The fact that you don't require ranks in Perform doesn't convince me, since Perform is not an Untrained skill, and there are a couple of abilities that *do* reward you for putting ranks in Perform anyway. All Bards are capable of using Perform, so ranks is no special bar to using Inspire.
I realize that the Free action may make it seem like you no longer have to spend time maintaining it, but it could just as easily be a matter of exerting muscle memory to continue a performance you can do in your sleep.
And I'm saying this as a current bard player. Currently, I'd love to be swordswinging and drumming and benefiting from my buckler simultaneously, but the logic is overriding my bias for now.
Note that the spear shouldn't apply to the discussion since it is, last I heard, a 3.5 system weapon.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I was thinking of letting bards use their musical instrument as their weapon, maybe even as a ranged weapon.
I did something similar with a shield:
Gong Shield: If Sweettalker agent buys a heavy or light steel shield at first level, this shield is upgraded to a gong shield for free. A gong shield has the same effect as a normal shield, with the exception that the gong shield sounds like a gong when struck. Shield bashing a creature with a gong shield adds a circumstance bonus to his Perform (gong) check for that round. A light gong shield gets a +1 circumstance bonus and a heavy gong shield gets a +2 circumstance bonus. A gong shield costs twice the amount of a normal steel shield.
I love Bards!!!
The fact that you don't require ranks in Perform doesn't convince me, since Perform is not an Untrained skill…What do you mean by this? You can use Perform untrained.
Is not a trained only skill*.
The other position is that since you do not require ranks in perform, then it must not require perform to use (for example) inspire courage.
Which does not convince me, because perform is not a trained-only skill. Since anybody can use Perform, this alone is not proof that bardic performance isn't using Perform.
The bard doesn't have to perform to have his bardic performance ability work. It's completely untied to actually doing anything except have the correct component available (audio or visual).
It depends on the performance.
Countersong makes a Perform (keyboard, percussion, wind, string, or sing) skill check.
Distraction makes a Perform (act, comedy, dance, or oratory) skill check.
The Perform skill says "Special: A bard must have ranks in specific Perform categories to use some of his Bardic Performance abilities." but nothing in the Bard description mentions requiring ranks, only skill checks, which can be made untrained.
To say the contrary smells a little like the arguments that if the book says you don't have to breathe, then you don't have to.
Actually the rules do say you have to breathe:
Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.
Other than that I would point out that this has been covered by the designers and developers multiple times and is in the FAQ iirc.
Heh, the breathing was more about a method of interpreting the rules than the example itself.
So far I've found the following.
One of the bard's cool stunts is the ability to play the flute or drums or lute AND still cast spells or attack. For REALLY bulky musical instruments, I'd say either that the bard's magic keeps the instrument playing once he starts, or (if that solution is too high magic for your tastes) that he simply incorporates his other actions into the performance in a way that enhances it.
I looked on Tim Shadow's FAQ but this wasn't referenced. The more material I get on this the better, since my DM already knows that a lot of the devs tend to disagree, and if I can't find it listed in a FAQ, he'll remain that much unconvinced.
I was thinking of letting bards use their musical instrument as their weapon, maybe even as a ranged weapon.
Bardic Instrument
Price 500 gp
Damage 1d8 Force
Range 30'
Special: Can be used at melee range without incurring an AoO.
Bonus Damage: Add Charisma Modifier to Damage
Would this be like the Desperado guitar case machine-gun?
Here's what I got for you troubleshooter:
Bardic performance is a supernatural ability -- as such it doesn't require verbal or somatic components unless it specifies otherwise. Bardic performance specifies it has either (and possibly both) verbal and somatic components -- nothing else. It goes into detail that the bard's performance can specifically not be disrupted however the bard must be able to spend the free action each round to keep it going.
Blind or deaf creatures will be immune to bardic performances that they can not preceive but nothing in the bardic performance itself requires actual performance -- simply the ability to perform the standard action to start (later move or swift) and the free action to maintain. Even the abilities that allow a skill check do not require ranks -- simply a check (which can be done untrained).
The key to remember is that pathfinder is its own system -- and as such unless a rule is present then there isn't such a rule. Bard's inspire/whatnot is as much magical as it is a performance, as such it's more the bard himself causing the magic than anything he is doing.
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Another good James quote from a previous thread.
Okay; I've been thinking this over and rephrased myself better on a similar thread... but basically, here's the trick.
Bardic performance does NOT require you to use a Perform skill that you have ranks in. It doesn't even need a Perform skill at all. Not only is Perform usable untrained, but the bardic performance ability does not require you to make Perform checks of any kind except for a few specific TYPES of bardic performance, such as countersong or distraction.
This means that when you inspire courage, you're not necessarily doing so by playing the flute or banging drums. It's more likely that you're singing or bragging or taunting or dancing or otherwise just showboating to raise your allies' morale. If you WANT to say that your bardic performance is from a particularly rousing violin solo, that's fine... but once it's started you don't have to keep playing the violin if you want to put the violin down and fight or spellcast or whatever because the actual Perform (strings) skill doesn't ever enter the picture.
I wonder if any other devs have spoken on the subject.
Alright, I did more searching. It is conclusively not in the FAQ (Jim Shadow's FAQ is not THE FAQ) and the only developer to comment on the issue in two pages of archives is Jason.
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Um... you should actually read the bard then -- since you seemed to have missed where they completely took out the perform skill tax.
You can be a bard and never put a rank in any perform skill while still keeping all your class abilities (except versatile performance).
...and you missed Countersong and Distraction there...
...and you missed Countersong and Distraction there...Um... you should actually read the bard then -- since you seemed to have missed where they completely took out the perform skill tax.
You can be a bard and never put a rank in any perform skill while still keeping all your class abilities (except versatile performance).
No I didn't. You don't need ranks to use those abilities. You will do better with those ranks but they aren't needed. Of course by that measure I was wrong in the opposite direction for versatile performance since you don't need ranks there either (again the ranks simply makes it more likely to succeed).
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Still tied to a Perform check though, so while you don't, *I* still treat this as a skill tax. I think Countersong is important enough an ability to somewhat "force" the bard into putting ranks in it, although I finally found a way around it: 1st level Saving Finale spell from APG --> with that, I can max rank ONE type of Perform only (Perform Oratory, thus gaining the full use of the Distraction ability), and to hell with Countersong... *if* one of my party members then ever fails a save against a harpy, I cast Saving Finale and let him reroll his own will save to resist... (not as good as making a full blast max ranked Perform Sing check, but it has the added advantage that the bard does NOT have to use Countersong at all.... as is, Countersong must be initiated *before* the party members are subjected to a sonic effect... if Countersong was an immediate action, as it should, it would be worth it, but as is, to hell with it, and I'll *maybe* key a future headband of Int to "Perform Sing" at some point just to get the ability..... **mayyyyyybe***)
What else is countersong good for besides harpy's song? What other creatures have magical sonic attacks?
Would it counter a spell like Shout and would you have to have a readied action to counter?
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What else is countersong good for besides harpy's song? What other creatures have magical sonic attacks?
Would it counter a spell like Shout and would you have to have a readied action to counter?
Yes: it counters anything that is listed as sonic OR language-dependent. Coincidentally, the bard gets +4 to his saves versus these effects via the well-versed ability.
language-dependent:
command
command, greater
enthrall
geas, quest
geas, lesser
suggestion
suggestion, mass
sonic:
animal trance
blasphemy
dictum
enthrall
holy word
shatter
shout
shout, greater
song of discord
sound burst
sympathetic vibration
wail of the banshee
word of chaos
Okay, that's a much more impressive list than I thought it would be!
How could you counter an instantaneous spell like Shout? Would you have to have countersong up already? Could you countersong as an immediate action?
Okay, that's a much more impressive list than I thought it would be!
How could you counter an instantaneous spell like Shout? Would you have to have countersong up already? Could you countersong as an immediate action?
Bardic performance cannot be used as an immediate action, so you would have to have the countersong up already.
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Okay, that's a much more impressive list than I thought it would be!
How could you counter an instantaneous spell like Shout? Would you have to have countersong up already? Could you countersong as an immediate action?
You can initiate as a standard and maintain it in the next rounds as a free action. This means you can initiate it in round one, then maintain it in round 2 for free PLUS initiate inspire courage in round two as a standard, then in round 3 you maintain both as a free action.
It allows everyone in the party to use the Perform check DC instead of their own save results. So they still roll their save normally, and if the result is lower than the bard's perform check, they use the bard's perform check.
In the case of shout, a successful save means you're not deafened and you only take half damage.
You can initiate as a standard and maintain it in the next rounds as a free action. This means you can initiate it in round one, then maintain it in round 2 for free PLUS initiate inspire courage in round two as a standardOkay, that's a much more impressive list than I thought it would be!
How could you counter an instantaneous spell like Shout? Would you have to have countersong up already? Could you countersong as an immediate action?
Isn't countersong a bardic Performance? I thought you could only have one of those going at one time.
From the SRD
"Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires a bard to stop the previous performance and start the mew one as a standard action."
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Bardic performance cannot be used as an immediate action, so you would have to have the countersong up already.
Yes, but HOWEVER:
"If a creature within range of the countersong
is already under the effect of a noninstantaneous sonic
or language-dependent magical attack, it gains another
saving throw against the effect each round it hears the
countersong, but it must use the bard’s Perform skill
check result for the save. Countersong does not work
on effects that don’t allow saves."
In effect, it's a really good way to ensure none of your party members are under a geas or suggestion... Geas can wreak havoc at high levels (no save, so an invisible wizard with a silent geas as a 7th level slot can stand by a sleeping character and cast the whole 10 min casting time in relative safety -- note to DMs out there)! :P)
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From the SRD
"Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires a bard to stop the previous performance and start the mew one as a standard action."
You are right: my bad. This means that Countersong is more useless than I thought. It's not exactly useful if you can't combine it to Inspire Courage.
...so I will stick to Perform Oratory and forget about Countersong, and rely on Saving Finale apg spell to pick up the slack with those who fail their saves! :)
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3.0 / 3.5 gave the option to play multiple bardic performances with two hand instruments such as the lute... with a non-mobile large instrument such as a pipe organ, you could actually maintain 3 performances...
I'd love it if this feature would be available in Pathfinder via magic instruments or a feat you can take...
3.0 / 3.5 gave the option to play multiple bardic performances with two hand instruments such as the lute... with a non-mobile large instrument such as a pipe organ, you could actually maintain 3 performances...
Level 16 Mountain Druid in Giant Form II carrying around a pipe organ on his back = Bard's best friend.
Bardic performance cannot be used as an immediate action, so you would have to have the countersong up already.Okay, that's a much more impressive list than I thought it would be!
How could you counter an instantaneous spell like Shout? Would you have to have countersong up already? Could you countersong as an immediate action?
You could ready an action to use countersong if someone casts a sonic/lauguage dependent spell similar to counterspelling, but that would be pretty wasteful unless you knew your opponents were likely to use one of those abilities..
3.0 / 3.5 gave the option to play multiple bardic performances with two hand instruments such as the lute... with a non-mobile large instrument such as a pipe organ, you could actually maintain 3 performances...
I'd love it if this feature would be available in Pathfinder via magic instruments or a feat you can take...
Yeah, I'd hoped that Lingering Melody would let you do that, but the core fact remains that starting a new bardic music ends the effects of the previous one.
If someone were charmed, could countersong help? What if the opponent were using a charm person spell to push the character into doing things via CHA checks. Would countersong help at all?
Charm Person doesn't have to be language-based. Just being considered a friendly creature can be beneficial, such as walking past a guard's post.