I think there's room for all types of portrayals for both men and women, both in the writing, and the art.
Once again, we seem to find ourselves in agreement. Might we consider this common ground and move forward with less antagonism in future encounters? :)
I think,rightly or wrongly, that the old stereotypes persist because it's easier. It gives a person a standard, something familiar to expect. It gives them the idea that if most "fantasy gurlz" wear stripper wear, then the lady in the full plate armor wielding the greatsword must be a complete bad ass.
I also agree that stereotypical representations of both men and women are easier. And I don't necessarily think that 'easier' in this context equates to 'bad'. It's only because stereotypical gender roles and cultural tropes around sexuality are SO prevalent in RPG writing and fantasy art that I comment on it at all. Saying, 'hey, I wish you'd do more of <Q> and maybe reduce some of the <Z> and <Y> in your writing or art doesn't mean 'Stop doing <Z> or <Y> altogether and ONLY do <Q>'. (It seems to me that we've gotten hung up on points like that in the past, so I just want to be explicit about what I mean there.)
As a GM I try to use images that invoke a variety of feelings in players, from fear, to anger, and yes even lust. I happily use the evil seductress, the scantily clad huntress, the kind motherly Lady Mayor, and the virtuous Sisters of Steel* (And all their male counterparts) in my games.
EDIT: I would like to point out that I prefer the lady in the full plate myself, but I get that some don't.
See, this all sounds completely cool to me, and leads me to think that playing at your table could be good fun. (Also, I like the Sisters of Steel idea, and may gank a version of it for my homebrew world. :))
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I shall make you a deal then, we can move along without hostility if you can overlook my bouts of childish play, and I won't take offense when you get your dander up over a topic that you feel so passionately about. ;)
Feel free to gank my dear Sisters, I worked long and hard on them and would love to know that they could spread their presence to other games as well, I'll even try to dig up the old PrC I put down for them if you'd like.
As for the old tropes being so common place, I think it's done out of laziness myself. No harm is meant, just easier to take the road MOST traveled for some. :/
I will apologize for being so hostile towards you, my original comment was not meant as a "STFU", but only to point out that Leafy was only making a jest in an attempt to deflect what it seems I myself helped usher in. i.e. turning this thread into a fire pit.
So what do you consider cheesecake?
Oh, for me it comes down to poses.
I had posted this in the other cheesecake thread you linked to, and since no one in this thread has actually given the true definition, I'm posting it here,too.
Cheesecake art is artwork that specifically emulates the style of pin-up girl photography that was made popular during WWII. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pin-up_girl
The type of art that seems to cause the uproars would be more accurately termed either Good Girl Art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_girl_art or Bad Girl Art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_girl_art.
I shall make you a deal then, we can move along without hostility if you can overlook my bouts of childish play, and I won't take offense when you get your dander up over a topic that you feel so passionately about. ;)
Works for me. :)
Feel free to gank my dear Sisters, I worked long and hard on them and would love to know that they could spread their presence to other games as well, I'll even try to dig up the old PrC I put down for them if you'd like.
That would be awesome, thanks. I'm not running PFRPG, so I won't be able to use it directly, but it'll help me translate the flavor and special abilities into the system I am using. :)
I will apologize for being so hostile towards you, my original comment was not meant as a "STFU", but only to point out that Leafy was only making a jest in an attempt to deflect what it seems I myself helped usher in. i.e. turning this thread into a fire pit.
Apology accepted, and much appreciated. I often leave these threads feeling more than a little singed, and hesitant about posting here at all. It's a pleasant change to have engaged the conversation and come out on the other side with mutual understanding instead. Thank you.
Lindisty, overall I think you provided a good definition of what constitutes cheesecake. I was wondering if you could elaborate a little more on what you mean by a passive pose. I'm curious. I mean, sure, there's the obvious example of the damsel in distress, but there's a whole range of options between damsel in distress and Joan of Arc. Where would you draw that line?
Lindisty, overall I think you provided a good definition of what constitutes cheesecake. I was wondering if you could elaborate a little more on what you mean by a passive pose. I'm curious. I mean, sure, there's the obvious example of the damsel in distress, but there's a whole range of options between damsel in distress and Joan of Arc. Where would you draw that line?
That's... really hard to describe in words. Let me take some time after work tonight to do some searching and grab some examples to link to and I'll have more to say, if the conversation hasn't left this topic far behind by then.
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Bettie Page? :)Actually that is a perfect description. Thank you!
-Idle
I find she is almost always a good answer for topics like this. :)
Ahhh BettyWrong Bettie but thanks for playing. :)
Try this Bettie
Yeah I know the difference, Notice I wrote Betty, not Bettie. I was tryign to inject some levity into this @&*$*#*&$^ retentive thread. Plus as much as I love her Bettie is neverSFW
Lindisty, overall I think you provided a good definition of what constitutes cheesecake. I was wondering if you could elaborate a little more on what you mean by a passive pose. I'm curious. I mean, sure, there's the obvious example of the damsel in distress, but there's a whole range of options between damsel in distress and Joan of Arc. Where would you draw that line?That's... really hard to describe in words. Let me take some time after work tonight to do some searching and grab some examples to link to and I'll have more to say, if the conversation hasn't left this topic far behind by then.
Okay. I hope you do get a chance. I have a feeling that we agree more than not, and that would really help me have a better idea of what you mean.
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So what do you consider cheesecake?
Oh, for me it comes down to poses.
I had posted this in the other cheesecake thread you linked to, and since no one in this thread has actually given the true definition, I'm posting it here,too.
Cheesecake art is artwork that specifically emulates the style of pin-up girl photography that was made popular during WWII. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pin-up_girl
The type of art that seems to cause the uproars would be more accurately termed either Good Girl Art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_girl_art or Bad Girl Art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_girl_art.
See I always felt that cheesecake was more along the lines of fan service than pin-up girls. Simply because I feel that there can be art with action in it that is cheesecake but would not fit into the pin up category. For example this is clearly cheesecake and pin up as is this. However, while this is clearly cheesecake I would argue that it is not part if the pinup genre.
See I always felt that cheesecake was more along the lines of fan service than pin-up girls. Simply because I feel that there can be art with action in it that is cheesecake but would not fit into the pin up category. For example this is clearly cheesecake and pin up as is this. However, while this is clearly cheesecake I would argue that it is not part if the pinup genre.
No, technically speaking, cheesecake = pinup girl, and it must emulate the style of photos from the mid-40s to the early 60s.
I would define your first example as cheesecake, because the character is in a classic pin-up girl pose.
The second one I wouldn't define as cheesecake at all. I wouldn't even call it good-girl/bad girl art or fan service either. Yes, you can see Seoni's thigh and a bit of cleavage, but that's it. It's not a classic pin-up girl style, either.
The third one I would call bad-girl art, not cheesecake. Again, it doesn't emulate the classic style of the pin-up photos, which it should in order to truly be called cheesecake.
Cheesecake vs. Beefcake.
(Also, if you keep posting stuff that so clearly gets across the points I try -- and apparently frequently fail-- to communicate, I'm gonna have to organize a Stebehil fan club or something.)
You are too kind. I guess it has something to do with having to think my posts through to the end, because I´m not a native speaker (or writer in this case, my spoken english is much worse due to a lack of practice). I changed that post several times before posting when I noticed that I went off a religious tangent, which is a touchy topic at best - and in this context, it is far from the best and nothing that belongs here.
Then again, a fanclub might be nice :-)
Stefan
Religion AND sex, Stebehil? Why don't you just burn the whole house down?
Religion AND sex, Stebehil? Why don't you just burn the whole house down?
Hmmm.... Now that you put it that way, I should look for a way to bring politics into it as well, to add some fuel to the fire.
Jess: Just pitching in the terminological distinction, since Hunter1828 was pointing it out.
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I can totally see that! Don't get me started on the lack of support and pinching involved in chainmail bikinis! But I'm confused where beefcake comes in to the discussion of the proposed "cheesecake" art linkified...is there some other definition of beefcake that makes it relevent to hunter1828's post?
I can totally see that! Don't get me started on the lack of support and pinching involved in chainmail bikinis! But I'm confused where beefcake comes in to the discussion of the proposed "cheesecake" art linkified...is there some other definition of beefcake that makes it relevent to hunter1828's post?
Lack of support may be an issue but I've got it from a reliable source that a scale bikini, at any rate, isn't uncomfortable much at all.
Discussion of male sexy fantasy art, next to female sexy fantasy art, all taking place under the same heading of cheesecake, called forth the distinction. If it doesn't apply to what Hunter was saying, a may have misread in my haste. I wasn't tying it to the links.
Discussion of male sexy fantasy art, next to female sexy fantasy art, all taking place under the same heading of cheesecake, called forth the distinction. If it doesn't apply to what Hunter was saying, a may have misread in my haste. I wasn't tying it to the links.
It applies. I just didn't mention it because the OP asked for a definition of "cheesecake".
But, as long as the subject is up, while the word "beefcake" is derived from cheesecake, beefcake doesn't adhere to the same definition of emulating pin-up girl photos from the 40s-60s. Beefcake is defined as photographs - or artwork - depicting handsome, nude or nearly nude males displaying their muscles.
I don´t think it is about aggression per se, it is about the way dominance is depicted. If the aggressor is male, he wields a bloody sword and has bulging muscles. If the aggressor is female, she wields a whip and is scantily clad, overemphasizing the sexual aspect. The way drow are depicted has come from a view that an evil matriarchial society has to rely on some form of sexuality, however perverted, to stay the way it is, as if women have no other instrument than sex to ensure dominance about others. This is the old "women are evil, and sex proves that" idea.
As you noted above, I´m not against women as BBEG. I love the "Evil Seelah" depicted in the GMG (I think), and it would be a loss to rule out the very idea of such characters. But I don´t want the stereotypical evil witch/priestess/sorceress showing off her "charms" permanently as a BBEG, at least not all the time. A Circe-like character sure has its place in gaming, but it should not be overdone.
Stefan
I have to disagree - the male of the an evil society is little more than an animal, a ravening sexual beast, his very depiction is that of penetration and rapine. It is a mainstay of the imagery used by the more extreme "all men are rapists" school of feminism. Thus using your argument this portrayal of male sexuality is is just as damaging as the portrayal of the female "black widow" style of using sex to kill and dominate.... Yet the ravening beast, muscles and loin cloth, hypersexualised masculinity is far more common fare.
These are monsters - they are meant to be abhorrent in all ways social and sexual. You are meant to hate them and what they stand for and want to stop them and change them.
I can not see how you can use one the "beast", and not use the other the "black widow", without betraying gender balance.
I like to think of Drow as populated with personalities like Elizabeth Bathory, Delphine LaLaurie, La Quintrala, Darya Nikolayevna Saltykova, Lucrezia Borgia, Agrippina the Younger, and Livia Drusilla. Far more interesting and far more terrifying than any Drow as their use of sex and murder was real.
She was one of my ... hero's... idols? growing up. Someone I looked up to and respected. So big Bettie Page fan.Bettie Page? :)I failed my save and fell for this post. I admit it.
On a lighter note; I kind of like the variety in cheesecake offered in Paizo products. The characters don't even have to be partially nude to evoke the cheesecake stereotypes. It's less Boris Vallejo and more... you know I don't have a followup for that.
-Idle
Bettie Page was a goddess.
Back in 2008, Betty Page died in a hospital in LA and, as I'd later discover, transformed into a nurse devouring zombie. I was there visiting Sarah, a publisher friend of mine just before she underwent a minor elective procedure. I was trying to gain some friend points while also subtly pitch her my latest premise for a novel. But Sarah was too medicated and so I wished her well and left, a bit dejected over my poor sense of timing.
Heading out of the building I heard a shriek and turned to see 85-year-old Betty Page fly down hall in a hospital gown and then tear the throat out of a stocky male orderly with her teeth. Twenty people screamed at the top of their lungs and yet had I somehow had the stones to chuck a bottle of organic putanesca sauce at her (why I had that on me is another story). I was never a greatly accurate pitcher, but that jar shattered against her skull like Roger Clemens in a Ragu commercial directed by Eli Roth. That got her attention. So, covered in tomatoes and gore she chased after me, into the parking lot. I ran to my car and locked the door and she threw herself against the windshield hard enough that I at first instinctively worried she'd hurt herself. Then, collecting my wits, I held up my copy of the thigh thick LA phonebook and shouted, "The power of millions of desperate Hollywood wannabes compels you to leave this place, foul undead! Leave, or I will tell them all that you're a producer and send them to audition for you! Shrink back into the shadows from whence you came, oh spawn of the underworld!"
Can you believe it worked? She shuffled off into a dark alleyway near the hospital and joined the Crips. I think they made her queen.
I never did write that novel, but no matter... the LA times reported the next day,
I never did write that novel, but no matter... the LA times reported the next day, "Rone Barton is a Real Page Turner!"
I need to get my book out before Boomer picks up an official publisher. It'll cut into my fanservicing.
I never did write that novel, but no matter... the LA times reported the next day, "Rone Barton is a Real Page Turner!"I need to get my book out before Boomer picks up an official publisher. It'll cut into my fanservicing.
Absolutely, DoppleRoner. Boomer said all fanservicing are belong to us. That's just so typically arrogant of him. All fanservicing are belong to me! CAN I GET AN AMEN?!
I have to disagree - the male of the an evil society is little more than an animal, a ravening sexual beast, his very depiction is that of penetration and rapine. It is a mainstay of the imagery used by the more extreme "all men are rapists" school of feminism. Thus using your argument this portrayal of male sexuality is is just as damaging as the portrayal of the female "black widow" style of using sex to kill and dominate.... Yet the ravening beast, muscles and loin cloth, hypersexualised masculinity is far more common fare.These are monsters - they are meant to be abhorrent in all ways social and sexual. You are meant to hate them and what they stand for and want to stop them and change them.
I can not see how you can use one the "beast", and not use the other the "black widow", without betraying gender balance.
Hm. I´m not getting what you are trying to say here, even after reading that post five times. I guess this may be due to my still not perfect command of the english language. Could you try to paraphrase it differently?
I like to think of Drow as populated with personalities like Elizabeth Bathory, Delphine LaLaurie, La Quintrala, Darya Nikolayevna Saltykova, Lucrezia Borgia, Agrippina the Younger, and Livia Drusilla. Far more interesting and far more terrifying than any Drow as their use of sex and murder was real.
Yes, drawing real-world comparisons makes it easier to portray them. But that was not the point I was getting at. Did you intend the last paragraph as a general statement, or did you want to use it in the discussion of my post above?
Stefan
Absolutely, DoppleRoner. Boomer said all fanservicing are belong to us. That's just so typically arrogant of him. All fanservicing are belong to me! CAN I GET AN AMEN?!I never did write that novel, but no matter... the LA times reported the next day, "Rone Barton is a Real Page Turner!"I need to get my book out before Boomer picks up an official publisher. It'll cut into my fanservicing.
As long as I get an awomen!
As long as I get an awomen!Absolutely, DoppleRoner. Boomer said all fanservicing are belong to us. That's just so typically arrogant of him. All fanservicing are belong to me! CAN I GET AN AMEN?!I never did write that novel, but no matter... the LA times reported the next day, "Rone Barton is a Real Page Turner!"I need to get my book out before Boomer picks up an official publisher. It'll cut into my fanservicing.
When do you ever not get all the dopplegroupies? Come on.
Seemed appropriate for the thread, however not entirely appropriate for all viewing audiences: Cheesecake ArmorCrafting
Photos inside are rather distracting
When do you ever not get all the dopplegroupies? Come on.As long as I get an awomen!Absolutely, DoppleRoner. Boomer said all fanservicing are belong to us. That's just so typically arrogant of him. All fanservicing are belong to me! CAN I GET AN AMEN?!
What can I say? I like to doppel them up. I try not to make the distinctions between au naturale and the blessings bestowed by a plastic surgeon.
Besides, someone has to pay to keep this mane of mine in pristine order. Doppel up on the competition.
Seemed appropriate for the thread, however not entirely appropriate for all viewing audiences: Cheesecake ArmorCrafting
Photos inside are rather distracting
Very cool... I actually have pictures that would appropriate for the thread, but I don't know if it's my place to post them here.
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While I agree with Hunter on where the term Cheesecake came from. I do think the word has evolved like many do and now for most have a different meaning derived from the original one, to include more things.
Rone - Yeah i knew she died fairly recently, twas a sad day. If she was to come back form the dead she should have done it as a vampire though. :)
While I agree with Hunter on where the term Cheesecake came from. I do think the word has evolved like many do and now for most have a different meaning derived from the original one, to include more things.
Rone - Yeah i knew she died fairly recently, twas a sad day. If she was to come back form the dead she should have done it as a vampire though. :)
Aye. I pour out some sun tan lotion for the sister who couldn't be here.
When I picture her young, I too see a vampire. When I picture her geriatric, zombie seems a decent fit. ;)
Seemed appropriate for the thread, however not entirely appropriate for all viewing audiences: Cheesecake ArmorCrafting
Photos inside are rather distracting
Neat products. Thanks for the link.
Seemed appropriate for the thread, however not entirely appropriate for all viewing audiences: Cheesecake ArmorCrafting
Photos inside are rather distracting
Very cool website, especially if you look at the detail they have on some of the items. However in the context of cheesecake and beefcake it does amuse me that the male equivalent of the page that you posted does not have a live model.
Beefcake armor modeled by a mannequin
Edit: Edited to be honest.
My, bad. There is a female mannequin modeling the equivalent of the male wardancer outfit.
Okay. I hope you do get a chance. I have a feeling that we agree more than not, and that would really help me have a better idea of what you mean.Lindisty, overall I think you provided a good definition of what constitutes cheesecake. I was wondering if you could elaborate a little more on what you mean by a passive pose. I'm curious. I mean, sure, there's the obvious example of the damsel in distress, but there's a whole range of options between damsel in distress and Joan of Arc. Where would you draw that line?That's... really hard to describe in words. Let me take some time after work tonight to do some searching and grab some examples to link to and I'll have more to say, if the conversation hasn't left this topic far behind by then.
Okay, this could eat up all night in the searching and analyzing, so I'm going to limit myself to two examples. Before I begin, I want to make it clear that I'm not saying that either of these examples are bad art, or that they are necessarily sexist in and of themselves. I'm saying they're relatively typical of women in relatively passive poses in fantasy art, and (by extension) of the sexualization of women in contexts where a man's sexuality would most likely be deemed irrelevent.
Seoni: Notice how Seoni's back is arched and her breasts are thrust up, and how she's got one leg cocked at what looks like a pretty uncomfortable angle (with an odd twist in her back) to expose her thigh and most of one buttock. Also notice that her head is tilted back and her expression looks almost serene. She's got one hand up as though she's warding off the dragon, but it looks more like a defensive pose than like she's attacking the monster, to me.
Valeros: Now here's a guy who's DOING stuff. He's got a grimace of rage on his face, and the artist has captured him in mid-sword-swing. It's true that he's leaning back slightly, but it appears more as though he's just following through on the sword stroke than that he's in a defensive posture. As far as I can tell, the only flesh that's visible is his face and hands.
The woman in this picture has a sword, which is cool, but her armor exposes way too much cleavage and thigh to be effective protection in a fight. And what's up with her posture? Her legs are spread, her back is arched, and her back is twisted in such a way that while she's holding up her shield and extending her sword at full length, she's still managing to expose most of her torso to the viewer. Not to mention providing what would be a clear crotch shot if her armor were just a tiny bit more revealing. She doesn't look like she's swinging her sword, and using her shield for defense. She looks like she's posing.
The man in the photo also looks like he's posing, and it's true that much of his chest is exposed. However, his expression is not pouty and seductive. He's facing the viewer directly, almost meeting the viewer's gaze in a direct challenge. He comes across as powerful, not sexy.
So, those are a couple of examples of art where it seems to me that women are in more passive poses than the men in the same images.
Thank you for the examples, Lindisty.
I'm not sure I agree that those poses are passive. Derogatory,possibly. Idiotic, yes. I mean, really, if I have a character exposing her femoral arteries like that it's because she's wearing freaking mage armor so it doesn't really make any difference whether she's showing skin or not. :P
(In the case of Seoni I would presume that that mage armor is indeed in use. Still not sure what's going on with her outfit, but that's a whole other subject.)
Mostly it seems that Mr Reynolds really consistently struggles with motion and the female form. Overall I'm not his biggest fan. There are a lot of other artists whose work I prefer.
And I do have a much better sense of what you're talking about now. I may not entirely agree with the phrasing, but certainly with the sentiment.
Thank you for the examples, Lindisty.
I'm not sure I agree that those poses are passive. Derogatory,possibly. Idiotic, yes. I mean, really, if I have a character exposing her femoral arteries like that it's because she's wearing freaking mage armor so it doesn't really make any difference whether she's showing skin or not. :P
(In the case of Seoni I would presume that that mage armor is indeed in use. Still not sure what's going on with her outfit, but that's a whole other subject.)
Mostly it seems that Mr Reynolds really consistently struggles with motion and the female form. Overall I'm not his biggest fan. There are a lot of other artists whose work I prefer.
And I do have a much better sense of what you're talking about now. I may not entirely agree with the phrasing, but certainly with the sentiment.
Just to be clear: in those particular examples, I consider the women's postures to be passive relative to the men in the same contextual space. I've certainly seen art with women in more passive poses, but I was specifically looking for images that offered the opportunity to contrast male and female figures within the same contextual frame.
Yeah, I'm just not getting passive as the right descriptive word for that.
I'm probably just being too specific in my language. Kidlet's a bad influence on me.
I do understand what you mean, though.
Ah, here it is!
Pretty low key to be honest. Can't believe people actually got uncomfortable about it, but they did.
It doesn't make me uncomfortable. It looks as if it's supposed to be a sort of idealized Olympian figure, which fits the 'gods' theme of the issue. I don't see anything especially sexual about the costume, pose, etc.
I find it pretty funny that some guys flipped out over that pic- probably many of the same guys screaming 'MOAR CHEESECAKE' and calling me a prude for not loving all those sex kittens with swords.
:)
At some point, I think it'd be good to include the notion of archetype alongside stereotype. Archetypes may be a reason that, in fantasy, verisimilitude sometimes struggles for breath.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. ;)I've never found beholders to be all that attractive, myself.
No, it's in the eye. You kinda have to dissect it first. ;P
Ah, here it is!
Pretty low key to be honest. Can't believe people actually got uncomfortable about it, but they did.
It doesn't make me uncomfortable. It looks as if it's supposed to be a sort of idealized Olympian figure, which fits the 'gods' theme of the issue. I don't see anything especially sexual about the costume, pose, etc.
I find it pretty funny that some guys flipped out over that pic- probably many of the same guys screaming 'MOAR CHEESECAKE' and calling me a prude for not loving all those sex kittens with swords.
:)
That's a very bizarre assumption that the two are even related, Ewan. I'm not sure why you would even draw a connection, honestly.
I find it pretty funny that some guys flipped out over that pic- probably many of the same guys screaming 'MOAR CHEESECAKE' and calling me a prude for not loving all those sex kittens with swords.
:)
Yeah, that's probably why I like Spartacus: Blood & Sand and Spartacus: Gods of the Arena so much. All the naked women kissing. I did write Starz a letter though, and told them to put more clothes on the guys, and don't let the guys kiss because that's icky.
;P