Before greater dispell GMW is enough to get enhancement bonuses on weapons. Afterwards putting transformative on them is relatively quick and cheap (which lets you transform any two handed medium weapon into a one handed large one).
First off: you'd be burning through a GMW wand in two and a half days, enchanting 18 weapons. And you cannot apply enchantments to temporary magical items. You won't even be able to finish the enchanting before the spell wears off, even if you speed-craft.
Second: What commonly available weapon would you say could reasonably be turned into a huge falcata?
Of course the DM could just stop being a pain in the behind and not make you jump through hoops as well.
Yes, because obtaining a dozen and a half custom crafted AND enchanted huge exotic weapons should not be an issue, and you'd be a bad GM for not giving people everything they want. I'll remember that next session, and demand a mithril full plate from my GM, because I could sure use one with my lv9 paladin that is still stuck in a breastplate+1. And if he doesn't cough one up, tell him he is being a pain. Should be fun just to see his reaction.
Longsword +whatever is easier to obtain than a huge exotic weapon, is the basis of my argument. You WILL find a magical medium-sized sword in a big city. Unless you integrate the existence of LOTS of high level summoners, or have a Huge Creature Mall, there is not really a market for huge exotic weapons.
Cheesed summoners are better than cheesed fighters. Summoners without access to cheese is about as good. The restriction to 7 attacks should still apply in my opinion, if for no other reason than not having to wait half an hour while the summoner resolves 40-ish attacks on his turn as he twin forms and double-full-attacks. It's boring and tedious.
And yes, true casters played by competent players is the most dangerous ones. The lv12 wizard in the Kingmaker campaign I run can easily TPK the rest of the party consisting of a heal/buff cleric, a cavalier, a fighter, a ranger and a cohort paladin.
Indeed. And have anyone here MADE epic level encounters? I can make 2 levels worth of play for normal level campaign for the same effort I need to put into ONE ENCOUNTER that is supposed to challenge people (NOTHING taken right out of the bestiary challenges ANYONE even at lv19-20, much less epic levels).
Yes. On a weekly basis.
And I'll readily admit that I don't run for a munchkin power gamer table. If I did, I probably wouldn't bother.
In my opinion, for any campaign to work in the long run, it's got to be far more about story than it is about power.
The way I see it, if you sit down 4 players and say "okay, make a 40th-level character and we'll play for an evening," you'll get a very different game than if you have a real game world where real things are happening, and where the characters grew organically from low levels, where they had to survive at all those intervening levels.
For the campaign I run, there's a very specific plot line, there's a lot of stuff going on, and they are really part of the game world rather than just uber-powerful characters with no connection to reality. There's even a rationale for why they're at epic levels without it turning into a Forgotten Realms-style "ever commoner is level 10" type of thing (from what I hear - I was never really into Forgotten Realms).
I'll readily admit that epic level play can be broken. So can low-level play. I'm just saying that it doesn't have to be broken, and it can be a long-lasting, rewarding experience. Otherwise, it would have been kind of stupid to run a campaign for 5 years, no?
Ice_deep:
Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks.
I interpret that as how many attacks can be used at any given level. Like how a bear has 3 attacks: 1 bite and 2 claws.
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By raw your still going to have 18 attacks (lvl 15 for ed), I build my character by RAW using herolab, and unless your telling me there wrong and each limb bonus+claw add on should be taking 2 attacks. Seems to me it's simple each limbs+claw add on only takes away one attack.
Again if you change that your admitting summoner is overpowered because your changing RAW.
Actually, Ice Deep, you're changing RAW. At 15th level, your eidolon is limited to 6 natural attacks, period. He is prohibited from taking evolutions which would give him more.
This is per APG, p.59 Table 2-9 Eidolon Base Statistics. It is further explained on p.58 under Max. Attacks.
Your build is illegal.
Ice_deep:
Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks.I interpret that as how many attacks can be used at any given level. Like how a bear has 3 attacks: 1 bite and 2 claws.I understand that, but the Limbs+Claw only adds one attack, it's just because its 2 claws it gets to do damage 2 times. You only roll one attack per limb, but deal damage x 2. This is how I have done Monsters as a GM, as well as summons. If I am wrong I would like to know so I can run it correctly, but this is also the way Hero Lab does it.
The below person "Heymitch" is correct, but thats still 15 attacks with pounce. 3d6+21 (x1), 3d6+14 (x2), 3d6+14 (x2) + Elemental DMG, at 24/19/14. Thats without applying magic items to Ed as well, or spells/buffs.
** spoiler omitted **...
Each limb does its own attack, and does its own damage. The bear gets three attack rolls. I don't have the full version of herolab so I can't comment on that, but if it is telling you to roll the attack dice once for all the claws, and then multiply the damage by the number of claws then it is wrong, because that means that all the attacks hit with one roll for a lot of damage.
The reason monsters are written "2 claws +18 (2d4+8 plus grab)", instead of--> "claw +18 (2d4+8 plus grab), claw +18 (2d4+8 plus grab)" is because it takes up unnecessary space.
Do you honestly think this guy at level 15 doesn't outclass a level 15 fighter? Now let me add equipment to the summoner+ed, and use some all day duration spells... Do you still think Ed wouldn't outclass that fighter?
I would have to see the builds. More than likely the summoner+eidolon combo is better than a fighter, but I don't think it is good enough to make the fighter feel unwanted unless the fighter is poorly built compared to the summoner, and it is definitely not broken.
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Ice Deep, I'm still having a hard time understanding some of what you're saying, but...
Are you thinking that your eidolon gets iterative attacks with it's natural weapons? Because he doesn't. Natural attacks don't work that way.
He's got 5 attacks and only 5 attacks. He doesn't get an increased number of natural attacks for a higher BAB. Nobody does.
If he has a claw attack at +28, that's a single claw attack. Not one at +28, one at +23, and another at +18.
The relevant rule is in the Core Rulebook p.182, "You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack..."
Your eidolon is limited by RAW to 6 body parts that are capable of a natural attack at level 15 (yours has 5). Therefore he has 5 (and only 5, not 15) attacks.
That makes him considerably less impressive...
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Unarmed strike does ... but he is adding way too much damage on his natural attacks (which all become secondary).
No, all of his attacks are primary.
Claw and Bite attacks are primary attacks, and possessing multiple attack forms doesn't make them secondary (although, for example, using melee weapons in conjunction with natural weapons would cause them to be treated as secondary).
I'm not sure what your reference to Unarmed Strikes refers to. This isn't a Monk flurrying. An eidolon with natural weapons follows all of the rules of natural weapons...they don't get iterative attacks. Period.
Do you honestly think this guy at level 15 doesn't outclass a level 15 fighter? Now let me add equipment to the summoner+ed, and use some all day duration spells... Do you still think Ed wouldn't outclass that fighter?I would have to see the builds. More than likely the summoner+eidolon combo is better than a fighter, but I don't think it is good enough to make the fighter feel unwanted unless the fighter is poorly built compared to the summoner, and it is definitely not broken.I understand your side. Well put, while I disagree somewhat still the point of contention is less now.
Throwing everything I could at the fighter to give him more damage, and better attacks he still only has the same as Ed would have, and Ed by the rules gets a lot more attacks at his higher modifier. Even discounting that, saying it's in error (which is specifically says, so that wouldn't seem like a error) he still would do more damage.
Damage Reduction doesn't cut it when you figare that the fighter would have to spend 1/2+ his WBL to get better weapons than a spell+extend cast 2 times can provide as a level 4 spell.
Throwing just all day buffs, and considering just casting say a quickened Protection from Evil, and hold a action to counterspell the person who might cast against him, or Ed and have Ed doing on average about 2 or 3 times the amount of damage the fighter is going to do.
** spoiler omitted **...
I have no idea how you got that armor and other stuff, and I could probably reverse engineer it, but could you at least tell stat out the evolution points.
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". . Unarmed Strike +28/+23/+18 (1d6+17/20/x2)"
He is using unarmed strike, which are a defacto melee weapons, so his natural weapons do become secondary (which is why this is in general not a great idea, unless you abuse multiweapon fighting).
Oh, now I see what you're talking about.
The thing is, though, I'm not sure I trust that stat block. HeroLab has a tendency to tack Unarmed Strike onto everything.
I have a low level Druid with a Club (actually, it's a darkwood bong...he's a stoner). HeroLab lists Darkwood Bong (2H) plus Unarmed Strike in his stat block. I'm not smacking people with my bong, and then kicking them, and HeroLab isn't modifying the attack to reflect my trying to do both. It's an "or" situation, that looks like an "and" situation.
I have a suspicion that Ice Deep is attacking with a Bite and 4 Claws, but that he's attacking 3 times with each of them...thus 15 attacks, when it should be just 5.
I think the Unarmed Strike listing is a weird quirk of HeroLab.
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Quick question with all this huge falcata stuff going around.
Wasn't it already cited earlier in this thread that magical items can resize to work with any size creature. I believe this was mentioned when people wanted the dragon to use his own loot.
Thus the falcata's size should be irrelevant. In fact if you just give your eidolon martial weapon proficiency, you can basically hand him any non exotic light melee weapons you find and have them resize.
Weapons and armor don't re-size. Only magic clothing and jewelry re-size. The relevant rule is on p.459 of the Core Rulebook, under Size and Magic Items.
Quick question with all this huge falcata stuff going around.
Wasn't it already cited earlier in this thread that magical items can resize to work with any size creature. I believe this was mentioned when people wanted the dragon to use his own loot.
Thus the falcata's size should be irrelevant. In fact if you just give your eidolon martial weapon proficiency, you can basically hand him any non exotic light melee weapons you find and have them resize.
Fighters get a bad rep on the internets.
That's because of fallacious assumptions that parties don't exist and that fighters are not well or smartly built.
Building a fighter takes a bit more craft than building a caster is all it really is.
-James
Isn't it a more serious error to assume that the fighter is simultaneously well built and in a party designed to cover his weaknesses?
I think this sort of thought process means that you do not disagree that fighters/non-casters are weak. It is more that you disagree on whether fighter's being weak is a problem.
Weapons are armor do not resize. Things like rings of protection, and headbands do.
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Unarmed strike does ... but he is adding way too much damage on his natural attacks (which all become secondary).No, all of his attacks are primary.
Claw and Bite attacks are primary attacks, and possessing multiple attack forms doesn't make them secondary (although, for example, using melee weapons in conjunction with natural weapons would cause them to be treated as secondary).
I'm not sure what your reference to Unarmed Strikes refers to. This isn't a Monk flurrying. An eidolon with natural weapons follows all of the rules of natural weapons...they don't get iterative attacks. Period.
Ok it's still
Fighter = 2d6+23 @ +33, 2d6+23 @ +28, 2d6+23 @ +23
Ed = 3d6+24 @ +28, 3d6+17 @ +28, 3d6+17 @ +28, 3d6+17 @ +28, 3d6+17 @ +28
I haven't added on the +2 extra from enchanting his claws with magic fang (summoner would add +3 but Herolab won't allow it?), even if you lower his BAB -3 (-5 total for secondary attacks from multi attack) though Claw stat's they are primary, he still out damaged the fighter about 2 to 1 when you count round 1.
4 rounds (all hit)
Fighter=20d6+230 = 310
Ed=60d6+368= 608Now you might say the difference will be between his +28 (or +25 depending on how you look at multiattack and claw) to hit for Ed and +33/+28/+23 to hit, but really that is the difference of one spell. Even saying the first round Ed only hits with his primary Bite+Claws he would still do about 175% of the damage a fighter is doing.
Okay, thanks. That's clearer to me now. I'm not arguing that Eidolons can't outdamage Fighters, although I think a lot will depend on the particular build. At least the overwhelming number of attacks have been dealt with.
One general note, though. A Fighter is going to have better equipment, since a Summoner has to split his funds between items for himself and his Eidolon. Still, by this level the Eidolon looks very solid to me.
Also, your claws and bite are all primary. Pinky had mentioned that they were secondary, because he thought you were using weapon attacks in combination with natural attacks.
Plus, your Eidolon doesn't require (or gain any benefit from) Multiattack, since you have only primary attacks. I suppose if he picked up a weapon, and used it in combination with some of his natural attacks (which would then be treated as secondary), this would help. Otherwise, it doesn't actually do anything.
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One other thing about high level Fighters...
I'd generally go for something like Staggering Critical (and later Stunning Critical) at this level, which (on a confirmed critical) gives my opponent the Staggered condition for 1d4+1 rounds, unless they make a DC 25 Fort save (in which case they're still Staggered, but only for 1 round). Stunning Critical at 17th level is actually scarier.
With a Falchion and Improved Critical, every attack is a 30% chance of a critical threat, and I'll have +4 on the roll to confirm the threat.
Staggered sucks, especially for people (or eidolons) with lots of attacks, since it limits you to a single move or standard action. Plus, I don't remember the Summoner having a spell to remove this or other conditions.
Also, you can't quite do this at 15th level (at least not with my favorite crit feats), but with Critical Mastery you can apply the effects of a second critical feat, such as Exhausting Critical, in addition to Staggering or Stunning Critical. Exhausting Critical allows no save and gives your opponent the Exhausted condition, which is a -6 penalty to Str and Dex, plus 1/2 move and no running or charging for at least one hour.
It's things like this that would allow a Fighter to go toe to toe with an eidolon. Not a guaranteed win, mind you, but a single reasonably lucky die roll will gimp the eidolon nicely.
That's 2 castings of a 2nd level spell per cycle of casting. You can do that 3 times per day. That's 10.5 hours per day, or less than half the day. On top of that, you're obliterating your entire 2nd level spell resources.
I can quicken cast it if I get into trouble in the meantime.
This won't work. The Twin Eidelon ability copies the eidelon, not the Eidelon and the spell that's giving him extra evolutions. You'd get the Eidelon's base form. Since the surge spell's target is 'your edielon', you can't cast it on yourself after your in his form.Second, there is no immunity to fire. There is resistence to fire (15 pts), which is what I assume you are talking about? That's not immunity to fire.
1) It says I copy the eidolon's abilities, including evolutions. If I have increased my Eidolon's evolutions by a spell there is nothing that states I won't get them when I change.
2)See the 2-point evolutions... the one called Immunity...
I'm going to assume that automatic loss of spells is a house rule? I see nothing in the Greater Dispel Magic that would make it automatically lose any spells. Each spell has to be rolled for.
Woops, I read a "you auto succeed on a spell you 'can' cast"... but it says that "you have cast" (as in spells you actually cast yourself, not spells you HAVE cast on you). Still, 1d20+20 vs DC 26 gives me a 75% chance to dispel... those odds are just fine with me. :-)
I love how these battles always have the dragon sitting still for 2 rounds at a minimum, never casting or interfering as the summoner puts his pants on and buffs and debuffs.
Um.. I'm not using any buffs to do my damage. I don't need it... but many buffs will already be up, just like the ones on the dragon. I also said I'd go round by round if you'd like.
What are the chances it casts a quickened summon creature next to the summoner on the first round, making it an AoO for each spell the summoner casts?
Chances are 0%. You cannot quicken summon spells.... nor can the dragon quicken limited wish (his only way of casting summons)
What are the chances it then takes off straight up with a magic item that doubles it's speed and starts sniping the eidelon/summoner with range spells the next round?
It could I guess, It's init is +2 and mine is +5ish sooo... not likely it's going first.
Turn 1 I'm in Twin Eidolon, my Eidolon attacks.Turn 1 for Dragon it flys into the air (provokes attack of opportunity) and casts spells... none of which I am too afraid of as they have DCs I only fail on a 1.
What are the chances it just spam summons from that point on, again quickened, every round?
No summon Spells listed.... Chances about 1-2% that the dragon will be "spamming" limited wish to cast summon spells at 1500gp a pop.
What if it casts 'anti-magic' on the summoner or eidelon?
It can't cast Antimagic field on us... the field is centered on the caster at the time of casting. I would actually welcome this spell as it would remove the dragons AC buffs, doing my job for me
Probably it's best move would be to cast AntiMagic field on itself and enter melee. This, at least, shuts down my Eidolon and my Summons.It also shuts down the dragons DR and Supernatural abilities.
Or a quickened dispel magic of it's own as soon as the summoner buffs his eidelon?
I don't need buffs to do my damage... this is why. So let it dispel me, the damage I've posted is SANS buffs.
What if it has Leadership feat and has a pet summoner of it's own who's in hiding and starts spamming it's summon monster ability to interfere with the summoner? What if what if what if.
Not likely. but possible I guess. Seems like a DM fiat to me.
If you're hitting a dragon of that age, he has minions and spells and knows you're coming.
You mean.. the DM knows I am coming? Where is the 'Omniscient' power on the dragon? I thought dragons sought seclusion... not one big happy family of minions whom they cannot trust.
That's 2 castings of a 2nd level spell per cycle of casting. You can do that 3 times per day. That's 10.5 hours per day, or less than half the day. On top of that, you're obliterating your entire 2nd level spell resources.
I can quicken cast it if I get into trouble in the meantime.
Now you're blowing out your 6th level spell slots for a 2nd level spell.
This won't work. The Twin Eidelon ability copies the eidelon, not the Eidelon and the spell that's giving him extra evolutions. You'd get the Eidelon's base form. Since the surge spell's target is 'your edielon', you can't cast it on yourself after your in his form.Second, there is no immunity to fire. There is resistence to fire (15 pts), which is what I assume you are talking about? That's not immunity to fire.
1) It says I copy the eidolon's abilities, including evolutions. If I have increased my Eidolon's evolutions by a spell there is nothing that states I won't get them when I change.
2)See the 2-point evolutions... the one called Immunity...
1) The evolutions granted by the Surge spell are not your eidelon's evolutions. They are evolutions granted by a spell. If you dispel the spell, the evolutions go away. Ergo, not the eidelons. Twin Eidelon doesn't duplicate spell effects on the eidelon, just the eidelon itself.
2) I admit to missing immunity.
I'm going to assume that automatic loss of spells is a house rule? I see nothing in the Greater Dispel Magic that would make it automatically lose any spells. Each spell has to be rolled for.
Woops, I read a "you auto succeed on a spell you 'can' cast"... but it says that "you have cast" (as in spells you actually cast yourself, not spells you HAVE cast on you). Still, 1d20+20 vs DC 26 gives me a 75% chance to dispel... those odds are just fine with me. :-)
Also assumes the dragon has no abilities to make it harder to kill his spells. Dangerous assumption.
I love how these battles always have the dragon sitting still for 2 rounds at a minimum, never casting or interfering as the summoner puts his pants on and buffs and debuffs.
Um.. I'm not using any buffs to do my damage. I don't need it... but many buffs will already be up, just like the ones on the dragon. I also said I'd go round by round if you'd like.
You do go round by round, but only for yourself. Going round by round for the dragon would be useless without the dragon stats, and with all due respect, you are so biased, I doubt you'd build a good dragon and play him smart. And a buff is a buff, wehther it does damage or not is completely irrelevant. I never said you were doing damage with them.
What are the chances it casts a quickened summon creature next to the summoner on the first round, making it an AoO for each spell the summoner casts?
Chances are 0%. You cannot quicken summon spells.... nor can the dragon quicken limited wish (his only way of casting summons)
A) You are flat out wrong on this. Summon spells can be quickened. They have a casting time of 1 round. Quickening works for any spell that has a casting time of 1 full round or less.
B) The dragon can't cast summon spells? Why not? A dragon casts spells as if a sorcerer of a specific level based on his age. There's no limits to what sorcerer spells he can know. So we're talking about an 11th, 13th, or 15th level sorcerer. All have has access to 5th level spells. Alternately, he could have a metamagic rod of Quickening to pop those spells off as quickened.
What are the chances it then takes off straight up with a magic item that doubles it's speed and starts sniping the eidelon/summoner with range spells the next round?
It could I guess, It's init is +2 and mine is +5ish sooo... not likely it's going first.
Turn 1 I'm in Twin Eidolon, my Eidolon attacks.
Turn 1 for Dragon it flys into the air (provokes attack of opportunity) and casts spells... none of which I am too afraid of as they have DCs I only fail on a 1.
Hmm, 3 pts difference on init? That's not a lot. Pretty much a 65% chance of going first. 35% is a big number. And that assumes there's nothing else going on. And, so what if you get a single attack on him if you do beat his initative? Better to take one AoO and then blast you apart from above. Your immunity won't last forever, neither will the eidelons. Circle above, wait for it to go away, blast you apart with energy breath from outside your attack range. Only an idiot of a dragon would sit and go toe-to-toe when he can kill from above.
What are the chances it just spam summons from that point on, again quickened, every round?
No summon Spells listed.... Chances about 1-2% that the dragon will be "spamming" limited wish to cast summon spells at 1500gp a pop.
Not listed? OH! I see, you mean you think that the spells known in the dragon entries are the only spells they can know! I can see how that would confuse you. That is simply the typical spells known by the average dragon. A dragon can learn any sorcerer spell it wants. They are there for ease of use by a GM. Any specific dragon can know any sorcerer spell it wants.
What if it casts 'anti-magic' on the summoner or eidelon?
It can't cast Antimagic field on us... the field is centered on the caster at the time of casting. I would actually welcome this spell as it would remove the dragons AC buffs, doing my job for me
Probably it's best move would be to cast AntiMagic field on itself and enter melee. This, at least, shuts down my Eidolon and my Summons.
It also shuts down the dragons DR and Supernatural abilities.
Ok, that one is my bad. ANd yes, if you managed to corner it, it should cast antimagic field, and probably would.
Or a quickened dispel magic of it's own as soon as the summoner buffs his eidelon?
I don't need buffs to do my damage... this is why. So let it dispel me, the damage I've posted is SANS buffs.
1st round, fly up. If lost initiative, take some damage. 2nd round, dispel magic (bye bye surge spell and immunity), breath weapon until summoner and eidelon are crispy. Eat remains (saving magic items for hoard).
What if it has Leadership feat and has a pet summoner of it's own who's in hiding and starts spamming it's summon monster ability to interfere with the summoner? What if what if what if.
Not likely. but possible I guess.
Most chromatic dragons have lots of followers, primarily Kobolds. Especially by the time they are level appropriate for a level 20 enemy. Again, this is the 'put the bad guy in an arena with a ceiling and let's duke it out and I'll kill him easy'. Of course, you're taking him out of the real world and putting him in a perfect kill zone.
If you're hitting a dragon of that age, he has minions and spells and knows you're coming.
You mean.. the DM knows I am coming? Where is the 'Omniscient' power on the dragon?
No, I mean the dragon. Crystal Balls (to scry surrounding areas), minions (through leadership or just paid for with gold) such as kobolds. None of this is omniscient, and it's not as if your arrogant 'I can kill dragon easy' summoner is hiding? ;)
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At 8000 gp a piece 3rd level pearls of power are relatively affordable at high level.9000gp unless you've found a discount store...
4500gp to craft.
-James
Either way, a pearl of power is still useless to summoners(bards, inquisitors, and sorcerers) because you have to prepare spells to gain the benefit from the pearl.
Not listed?He's using the badly done out Red Dragon that's listed earlier in this thread.
It's also a Red Dragon that would likely kill his summoner without much trouble.
Take the same Red Dragon, but make a better choice of spells, feats and gear....
-James
Ah,
I must have missed it. I assumed he was looking at the dragons in the bestiary, the spells listed there are just short cut examples for the GM to get one out quickly, or as a starting place. The ones in the bestiary are ok, but not designed for an optimized 20th level character.
btw, summon spells cannot be quickened.
Spells with casting times longer than 1 full round action cannot be quickened.
Summon spells have a casting time of 1 round which is greater than a full round action.
Enough of this "yes you can, not you can't".
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
Summon Monster I
School conjuration (summoning) [see text]; Level bard 1, cleric 1, sorcerer/wizard 1Casting Time 1 round
Quicken Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast spells in a fraction of the normal time.
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action cannot be quickened.
Now IIRC a full round, and 1 round were different in 3.5, but it seems pathfinder has made them equals for the purpose of quickening, and since summoning is not more than 1 full round it is legal until erratta comes out. I thought I had a feat in 3.5 to get past this issue(not being able to quicken summoned spells) in 3.5, so it may be an error that summoned spells can be quickened, and I can only direct someone to start a rules thread and FAQ it so it can be changed, but as it stands now it is legal.
@MDT
Turn by Turn it is.
You roll for my characters... they are on page 6 towards the bottom in spoilers.
Rolf Balkan
20 Summoner
True Neutral Human
Init +5 ;Senses Perception +24
AC 35 (+5 Dex, +5 Deflection, Armor +8, Natural +3,+4 Eidolon Near)
HP 274 (20d8 +180)
Fort +22 Reflex +20 Will +25 (-4 when away from Eidolon)
Evasion
Spd 30ft,
Melee (Doesn't matter until changed)
Str 14 Dex 20 Con 24 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 24
Skills -Doesn't matter...
Aspect- Limbs(Arms)(2) Note: This allows me to choose MultiWeapon FIghting.
Greater Aspect- 2xLimbs(Arms)(4)--but only takes 2 from eidolon.
Feats Arcane Strike, Quick Draw, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Falcata),Toughness,Power Attack, Weapon Focus(Falcata) Improved Critical(Falcata), Multi Weapon Fighting, Critical Focus, Staggering Critical, Quicken Spell
Pertinent Items Ring of Protection +5, Amulet of Natural Armor +3, Belt of Physical Perfection +6, Circlet of Mental Prowess +4, Ring of Evasion,Bracers of Armor +8, Cloak of Resistence +5
Rolf Balkan (In Eidolon Form)
20 Summoner
Huge True Neutral Human
Init +8 ;Senses Darkvision 60ft,Perception +24
AC 59 (+26 Natural, +8 Dex, -2 Size, +8 Armor,+5 Deflection, +4 Near Eidolon)
HP 314 (20d8 +220)
Fort +24 Reflex +23 Will +25 (-4 when away from Eidolon)
Evasion
Spd 30ft, Flight 70ft(poor)
Melee +4 Falcata + 29/+24/+19 (3d6+49[17-20/x3]), 14 +4 Falcata +29 (3d6+25[17-20/x3])
This is including power attack (-4 to Hit) and not including any party or Self buffs
Str 48 Dex 26 Con 28 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 24
Skills Don't matter
Aspect- Limbs(Arms)(2) Note: This allows me to choose MultiWeapon FIghting.
Greater Aspect- 2xLimbs(Arms)(4)--but only takes 2 from eidolon.
Feats Arcane Strike, Quick Draw, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Falcata),Toughness,Power Attack, Weapon Focus(Falcata) Improved Critical(Falcata), Multi Weapon Fighting, Critical Focus, Staggering Critical, Quicken Spell
Pertinent Items Ring of Protection +5, Amulet of Natural Armor +3, Belt of Physical Perfection +6, Circlet of Mental Prowess +4, Ring of Evasion, Cloak of Resistence +5, Bracers of Armor +8
20 Eidolon
Huge True Neutral Outsider
Init +3;Senses Darkvision 60ft, Perception +18
AC 56 (38 while in attack mode)(+23 Natural, +3 Dex, -2 Size, +4 Mage Armor)
HP 165 (15d10 + 90)
Fort +15 Reflex +10 Will +15
Improved Evasion, +4 will vs enchantment
Spd 30ft, Flight 70ft(poor)
Melee +2 Defending Falcata + 25/+20/+15 (3d6+38[17-20/x3]), 8 +2 Defending Kukri +25 (2d6+16[15-20])
Str 42 Dex 20 Con 22 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
Skills Fly +17, Perception +18, Use Magic Device+18, Acrobatics+21
Biped
Huge(10)
Limbs (Arms)+(Claws)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Limbs (Legs)
Flight (Winged)(70ft)(4)
Total= 22 (6 points going to Summoner for aspects)
Critical Focus, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Falcata), Improved Critical(Falcata), Multi Weapon Fighting, Martial Weapon Proficiency(Kukri), Improved Critical (Kukri), Staggering Critical
You tell me how far away I am from your dragon.
I have See Invis, Spell Turning, Magic Circle AGainst Evil, and Overland Flight on Me.
My Eidolon has, Spell Turning, See invisibility going.
We can make rolls for ourselves using the honor system.
@MDT
Turn by Turn it is.
You roll for my characters... they are on page 6 towards the bottom in spoilers.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **You tell me how far away I am from your dragon.
I have See Invis, Spell Turning, Magic Circle AGainst Evil, and Overland Flight on Me.
My Eidolon has, Spell Turning, See invisibility going.
We can make rolls for ourselves using the honor system.
You'll have to wait until I have time to sit down and make a dragon.
Please answer the following :
A) Age of dragon?
B) You have quite a few spells going, how are these running? Are they permanent? Are they cast at regular intervals? If at regular intervals, we'll need to randomly determine what time of day it is, to account for how many spells you've used up keeping them going. This is with the assumption that neither side has time to 'put their pants on' and cast spells in preparation for combat.
To get the time of day, 4d6 (4 to 24) and we'll assume the encounter doesn't take place between Midnight and 4am. :) We'll assume everyone woke up at 8AM and started casting any spells. If it's before 8AM, but after midnight, then we'll assume everyone has been up since 8pm the night before (traveling by night).
Time of Day :
C) What is the environment? This makes a huge difference in tactics. If it's in a cavern underground, then different tactics from an open field which is different from a swamp. This also affects which type of dragon I use, since a swamp is a black dragon, underground is probably a red dragon, a forest ikely a green, icy tundra a white, etc. This also affects your spells, since if you're on an icy tundra, you'll have to expend spells for protection from the environment. Perhaps we should do a random table.
Environment :
01 - Icy Tundra (White Dragon)
02 - Forest (Green Dragon)
03 - Mountain Top (Blue Dragon)
04 - Swamp (Black Dragon)
05 - Underground Cavern (Red Dragon)
Random roll for location :
May have more questions, this is off the top of my head.
btw, summon spells cannot be quickened.
Spells with casting times longer than 1 full round action cannot be quickened.
Summon spells have a casting time of 1 round which is greater than a full round action.
Enough of this "yes you can, not you can't".
LOL,
Thanks Wraith. I actually did look that up before I posted it the second time, and had thought I remembered the first time that it had changed. I just didn't have time earlier to copy/paste the PRD entries.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/chromatic- red/red-dragon-wyrm
Use this dragon:
Also, we will say I have See Invis Permenantly on me, the rest I cast at intervals.
Please treat this as a vanilla setting. Give the Dragon his Arcane Sorcerer 10 min/level buffs or longer (1 hour per level etc) and just say that he has them on. Even sides starting the fight. Don't bother randomly rolling the time of day.
None of this "the dragon auto knows you are coming" crud either... I can just cast Nondetection to fiat that fiat.
Keep in mind that this dragon is meant to challenge 4 individuals: Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, Fighter as the standard.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/chromatic- red/red-dragon-wyrm
Use this dragon:
Also, we will say I have See Invis Permenantly on me, the rest I cast at intervals.Please treat this as a vanilla setting. Give the Dragon his Arcane Sorcerer 10 min/level buffs or longer (1 hour per level etc) and just say that he has them on. Even sides starting the fight. Don't bother randomly rolling the time of day.
None of this "the dragon auto knows you are coming" crud either... I can just cast Nondetection to fiat that fiat.
Keep in mind that this dragon is meant to challenge 4 individuals: Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, Fighter as the standard.
But in a real game he will know you are coming, and what happens in a real game is what matters. I give all my casters alarm as an example at intervals throughout the lair. You can't ignore what will happen in a real game and expect anyone to take the results seriously. I also have bad guys that are not too stupid too not run away, and alert the other baddies that there is an intruder. There is no way you can really sneak up on this dragon in a real game. Magic Mouth can also be used as a detector. I could keep going, but I think I have said enough.
edit:Nondetection won't stop you from being found.
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None of this "the dragon auto knows you are coming" crud either... I can just cast Nondetection to fiat that fiat.
First, many people would see it as playing the dragon as appropriate for a creature of it's Intelligence score.
Second, I've gone through all your posts in this thread and not once have you posted the spells known list for this Summoner. If you say you're going in with spells up, you should at least have your spells known posted as well.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/chromatic- red/red-dragon-wyrm
Use this dragon:
Also, we will say I have See Invis Permenantly on me, the rest I cast at intervals.Please treat this as a vanilla setting. Give the Dragon his Arcane Sorcerer 10 min/level buffs or longer (1 hour per level etc) and just say that he has them on. Even sides starting the fight. Don't bother randomly rolling the time of day.
None of this "the dragon auto knows you are coming" crud either... I can just cast Nondetection to fiat that fiat.
Keep in mind that this dragon is meant to challenge 4 individuals: Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, Fighter as the standard.
A) No, it's not meant to be a challenge. It's a CR 20 encounter. It's designed to be a minor nuisance in a 4-5 encounter day (it's designed to take up 20-25% of the teams resources for the day). A challenging encounter for four 20th level individuals would be in the 25 CR range.
B) You're putting us back in the 'real world sucks for me, so put us both in an arena, I don't want to deal with real world realities in the game'.
C) I said I was going to make a dragon, per rules, at the appropriate age. The one you link to is a poorly made dragon in some regards, and has nothing listed for hirelings, followers, no items specified, and poor spell selection. Again, 'Please let me pick the weakest thing I can to prove this class is broken'.
D) If the dragon has valid ways of knowing you are coming (such as followers, crystal balls, detection traps, etc) paid for out of treasure, then it knows you are coming. If you want to call that a fiat, that's fine, but you are going to need to expend your resources to overcome it's resources, not just declare it invalid. NonDetection is perfectly valid to prevent it scrying you. Minions can see you, so you'll need to invisible yourself and your eidelon. If you want to take resources from your WBL to do so, I'm perfectly fine with that. Anything I use for the dragon comes out of his hoard, and will be there for the summoner after the battle (if he manages to win). This is how things work in the game, and the test has to take that into account.
If you really want this to be a challenge (point A above), I can instead work up a Great Wyrm dragon instead. This helps get the CR up to 19 to 22, depending on the wyrm (blue per the random roll above, which would be 21). Even that is not a 'challenge' for a level 20 group of four, it's just a level appropriate encounter.