I have been playing a halfling ninja now with real good stats.
Probably i am better off than some other charakters, but there are some issues. The ninja heavily depends on the ki, which is really limited. Without it, fighting and surviving becomes difficult, because a lot of the feats a rogue would take are spent on cool ki dependant things.
In general, i cant understand why so many people want to nerf it.
Anyway, i think the two above mentioned feats should just work like those of a rogue. Deadly range should increase automaticaly every 3 levels, While the bleeding attack should work sneak attack dice dependant. Sneak attacking from a distance is difficult anyway without the stealthy sniper feat and with an empty ki pool. Many fights last much longer than a ki pool and then the day nor the adventure didnt end yet.....
No trace and ome other ninja tricks are so heavily situational and then often not worth much or end much too fast.
I personally would propose giving a lot of ninja tricks even cheaper ki cost for two simple reasons:
-Magic users, while on low BAB, gain most of their "buffs" for at least some rounds. Rangers get something similar even on high BAB. So why not ghost step, wall climb and else for minutes or at least some rounds?
As long as it doesnt directly affect damage, would be more balanced.
-Both directly comparable classes, rogue and monk, have a higher constant damage output and are more likely to survive somehow.
While there are many lovely options to choose from for a ninja, only few can be taken actually. Free use of a ninja trick once a day should not be nerfed in anyway. The ninja should better be buffed in some way because of her heavy dependencies. Compared to a rogue, she is even more squishy.
So like many others here, i vote for giving the rogue types a buff, perhaps in form of even more feats or something.
There should be more balance between magic users and others in mid to later levels anyway and perhaps even in early levels.
I personally would propose giving a lot of ninja tricks even cheaper ki cost for two simple reasons:-Magic users, while on low BAB, gain most of their "buffs" for at least some rounds. Rangers get something similar even on high BAB. So why not ghost step, wall climb and else for minutes or at least some rounds?
As long as it doesnt directly affect damage, would be more balanced.-Both directly comparable classes, rogue and monk, have a higher constant damage output and are more likely to survive somehow.
If anything I must heavily disagree with making the ki abilities cheaper. What exactly was your Ninjas build and level?
Your remark about Ninja survivability is anything but. Shadow Clone, problem solved, you are far less squishier than the Rogue is since the Rogue WILL get hit, you? You got a good chance of not getting hit.
Also, Rogues and Monks? Higher damage output? Eh? What the hell you been drinking?
Also, your comment on "if it doesn't affect damage, it doesn't affect balance" is very much false. The most powerful Wizard spells are irrelevant of damage and the reason they are broken. Also, Ghost Step is EXTREMELY game breaking.
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I personally would propose giving a lot of ninja tricks even cheaper ki cost for two simple reasons:-Magic users, while on low BAB, gain most of their "buffs" for at least some rounds. Rangers get something similar even on high BAB. So why not ghost step, wall climb and else for minutes or at least some rounds?
As long as it doesnt directly affect damage, would be more balanced.-Both directly comparable classes, rogue and monk, have a higher constant damage output and are more likely to survive somehow.
I agree that ki abilities should not be nerfed. The ninja does get very few ki points and plenty of ways to spend it. And like you said Heretek, yes the ninja could Shadow Clone but they have to select that as a ninja trick and spend one ki.
However, the ninja has a far higher damage output than the rogue or monk. Check post 616 on this:Optimized Ninja
I personally would propose giving a lot of ninja tricks even cheaper ki cost for two simple reasons:-Magic users, while on low BAB, gain most of their "buffs" for at least some rounds. Rangers get something similar even on high BAB. So why not ghost step, wall climb and else for minutes or at least some rounds?
As long as it doesnt directly affect damage, would be more balanced.-Both directly comparable classes, rogue and monk, have a higher constant damage output and are more likely to survive somehow.
I agree that ki abilities should not be nerfed. The ninja does get very few ki points and plenty of ways to spend it. And like you said Heretek, yes the ninja could Shadow Clone but they have to select that as a ninja trick and spend one ki.
However, the ninja has a far higher damage output than the rogue or monk. Check post 616 on this:Optimized Ninja
Didn't you multiclassed inquisitor to do that?
"If anything I must heavily disagree with making the ki abilities cheaper. What exactly was your Ninjas build and level?"
Halfling Ninja- lvl9 - 63hp - vanishing trick, deadly range, fast stealth, wall climber. Feats: Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting, Ammo Drop, Juggle Load, Pass for human.
We play a low money game, so magical items are rare somehow
"Your remark about Ninja survivability is anything but. Shadow Clone, problem solved, you are far less squishier than the Rogue is since the Rogue WILL get hit, you? You got a good chance of not getting hit."
Sure, shadow clone is nice, but you can only do it so often and its still difficult to get away, it only keeps you alive for some more rounds perhaps. If you try to hide, all duplicates will mimick your action.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mirror-image
"Also, Rogues and Monks? Higher damage output? Eh? What the hell you been drinking?"
Ninja is an alternative Rogue. Monk is comparable because its the only other class that has a ki pool. While Ninja has to use the ki to make cool moves, a monk gets this by class feats and then still can use ki to do something. Its not primarily about the damage output. By the way, i only drink the bst stuff, so don´t worry ;)
"Also, your comment on "if it doesn't affect damage, it doesn't affect balance" is very much false. The most powerful Wizard spells are irrelevant of damage and the reason they are broken. Also, Ghost Step is EXTREMELY game breaking."
Thats right. I agree, it does affect the game, but it doesnt give the ninja some incredibly deadly enhancements over others. In fact, its the best get away. If you view the ninja as something like a ranger, a fighter type (only ninja is rogue type) with some magic and other abilities, this becomes more balanced. A lot of other classes can use magic enhancement and don´t forget, its a master trick, so only available at Level 10.
The major point of my Post is about Bleeding Attack and Deadly Range though.
Sure, shadow clone is nice, but you can only do it so often and its still difficult to get away, it only keeps you alive for some more rounds perhaps. If you try to hide, all duplicates will mimick your action.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mirror-image
Only so often? Its 1 ki point and lasts you likely the entire encounter. Encounters on average last 3 rounds, usually less. General rule of thumb is what? 3 encounters a day? That's 3 ki of your allotted amount, that still leaves you a nice remaining pool for other fun. Yeah, it takes a standard action, but you're a rogue anyway, you can rarely get off a SA 1st round of combat since you won't have a flanking buddy.
Ninja is an alternative Rogue. Monk is comparable because its the only other class that has a ki pool. While Ninja has to use the ki to make cool moves, a monk gets this by class feats and then still can use ki to do something. Its not primarily about the damage output. By the way, i only drink the bst stuff, so don´t worry ;)
Sorry but Monk is not comparable. the Monk can use ki in the same manner as a Ninja to get an extra attack and such, but that is hardly useful for a monk in the long run. What the monk needs is to be a mobile skirmisher that DOESN'T rely on... not... being... mobile... Yea.
Thats right. I agree, it does affect the game, but it doesnt give the ninja some incredibly deadly enhancements over others. In fact, its the best get away. If you view the ninja as something like a ranger, a fighter type (only ninja is rogue type) with some magic and other abilities, this becomes more balanced. A lot of other classes can use magic enhancement and don´t forget, its a master trick, so only available at Level 10.The major point of my Post is about Bleeding Attack and Deadly Range though.
Oh I fully agree, these abilities should be used properly, and not for cheese. However not all players have that level of decency, and not all DMs are willing to confront the problem.
Thanks for your comments and the Optimized Ninja Link.
My Ninja build is very different somehow though, more into a social direction. Since its halfling, direct damage is not that high and she needs to rely even more on the sneak attack. Then, the skills and disguise are important play factor, also acrobatics and daring maneuvers she does with that.
The stats at level 9 are:
We roll dice for stats and halfings luck was already there :)
STR 10
DEX 19
CON 12
INT 16
WIS 14
CHA 20
I choose CHA instead of DES because of the Ki point and got rid of -1 modifier for strenght
HP: 63, i took the favoured class circumstance bonus on criticals for the rogue.
AC: 19 (Mithral Shirt, DEX+4, Size+1), Touch 15, Flat-footed 15
Attack: Halfling Sling staff: 13/8 1d6 x3, 2x Ninjato 11/6 1d6 19-20x2, Blowgun 13/8 1d2x2 + poison
Sneak Attack 5d6
Skills: Acrobatics +15, Bluff +15, Sleight of hand +15, Stealth +19,
nearly all other class skills 5 ranks.
Feats and ninja tricks: vanishing trick, deadly range, fast stealth, wall climber. Feats: Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting, Ammo Drop, Juggle Load, Pass for human.
Traits: Power of suggestion, Reactionary
Ki Pool: 9 points
There are not so much magical items yet, but i play with a modified version of the Ninjato, as mentioned in another thread here:
Ninjato - 12gp 1D6 19-20/x2 crit P
Ninjato is a short sword with the hilt of the sword able to hold small equipment, eg. small bombs, poisons, blowgun needles or even a dagger. the scabbard of the sword has a hole in the bottom end to be used as a blowgun (as per normal rules) & can also be used as a snorkel for going under water
My Ninjas Ninjato functions as a halfling sling staff with two blades hidden inside and a blowgun scabbard, all in all it looks like a wandering stick. Cost was like all weapons together.
Also she uses a riding dog.The 3 inquisitor levels really hit the spot. I was first thinking on dipping into monk class for feats and faster movement, but the actual plan is to get the halfling opportunist prestige class.
Having hide in plain sight from Shadow dancer would also be nice, but feat cost is too high.
I hope you can see where i go. Unfortunately i dont know how to calculate dps, there are no magic weapons anyway.
Speaking about hide in plain sight leads me to antoher suggestion for the ninja feats:
I dont think bombs should use ki at all, better pay for them. Because this was you can use it as a hide in plain sight too, since you get concealment from being in a cloud of smoke.
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Didn't you multiclassed inquisitor to do that?
Yes because I wanted to exploit the fact that no ninja capabilites are restricted by armor (and my actual PFS character will be this build). I understand it's not a true interpretation of the ninja as DPR and am currently working on a total lvl 10 ninja. I don't want to comment on my findings yet because I don't have it posted but will get back to you when I do.
Thanks for your comments and the Optimized Ninja Link.My Ninja build is very different somehow though, more into a social direction. Since its halfling, direct damage is not that high and she needs to rely even more on the sneak attack. Then, the skills and disguise are important play factor, also acrobatics and daring maneuvers she does with that.
Direct damage not being high isn't a problem. The ninja should avoid direct damage application at all costs. Hopefully by tonight I'll get a complete lvl 10 dex based ninja up here. If you're curious about the math then post 1 in the DPR Olympics thread tells you the calculations to use. Takes a little time but when investing so uch into your character this can really help you to see how you'll stand up.
Hopefully by tonight I'll get a complete lvl 10 dex based ninja up here. If you're curious about the math then post 1 in the DPR Olympics thread tells you the calculations to use. Takes a little time but when investing so uch into your character this can really help you to see how you'll stand up.
Yes i am interested in both. Would be nice.
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Yes i am interested in both. Would be nice.
Alright. He's post 617 Dex Ninja. I wouldn't recommend playing him though. In building a straight ninja class, I realized that sticking to just ninja is pretty difficult. There is nothing wrong with that, just understand that if damage is what you're looking for then a dip into martial classes is necessary.