samurai should get TWF with katana and wakizashi as a bonus feat at level 1 or maybe 3 without having to have the prerequisite dex, just like ranger combat style, either that or be able to pick between a polearm style, a daisho style and a longbow style, similar to ranger, because these are landmark abilities of samurai.
Maybe offer the combat styles as an alternate to the horse?
Hah.
no he's good as a cavalier and all.
I just dont think the samurai should need the uber high dex to TWF with a katana and waki.
It's a samurai thing, more so than a ranger thing, heck rangers never TWF'd before some crazy unbalanced dark elf did it...then ALL rangers TWF'd
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TWF WTF. That may feel feel like a trademark ability of the samurai, but I disagree. Giving the samurai free pass to a major ranger class feature(as opposed to Wild Empathy, heh) with Weapon Expertise and saving throw abilities as well would phase out rangers. Why not always be a samurai then, especially if you don't care for hunter's bond at all and are playing rangers just for the TWF goodness. Furthermore, I don't think giving every samurai the Nitou-ryu style, something that historically(buzz buzz says the buzzword) took tons of training.
Not to mention, with the samurai being mounted, using archery and all, having 15 dexterity for TWF and Double Slice is not that much of a character investment. Rangers, barbarians and fighters do it all the time. I think it fits that only ambidextrous people would use Nitou-ryu and regular samurais practice with a single weapon.
Why not always be a samurai then, especially if you don't care for hunter's bond at all and are playing rangers just for the TWF goodness.
If you're playing something "just for the TWF goodness", you'd better pick fighter, because those are helluva more awesome TWF'ers than rangers are.
I don't agree with the OP.
TWF wasn't the samurai historic style. Only a few great fighters went for it, such as musashi miyamoto. The kenjutsu main style was 2-handed.
What is the problem with the Samurai just taking the prerequisite feats? You intrude on the ranger's niche if you give out TWF-without-prerequisites. There is no historical/mythological reason to pigeon-hole samurai to specific weapon forms.
What is the problem with the Samurai just taking the prerequisite feats? You intrude on the ranger's niche if you give out TWF-without-prerequisites. There is no historical/mythological reason to pigeon-hole samurai to specific weapon forms.
1) they should get something to be a choice instead of horse.
2) why do rangers get it? because of one dark elf in one book? Alot more samurai were written about it than 1 dark elf.
3) rangers do alot more than TWF
4) feats are set up in a way that everyone spams dexterity. the fighter used to be a class that didnt prioritize dexterity, now its a str and dex class. im tired of seeing everyone spam dex just to get a fighting style they want to be like/look like the character they have in their head. there has never been a reason why ranger gets those feats without the necessary dex, largely due to the fact how many ranger builds have you seen where the ranger doesnt already have tons of dex? everyone wants to build a legolas and so they want to bow shoot and TWF (even tho he does it maybe three times in the entire trilogy) and you need a high dex to be good with a bow, so you just double tap into TWF naturally anyway.
5) whats the deal with the shield proficiency I've never seen a samurai shield anywhere. They get this proficiency for no other reason than it is attached to the cavalier archetype.
1) they should get something to be a choice instead of horse.
Agreed, but being mounted warriors is far more historically relevant than sometimes fighting with two weapons.
2) why do rangers get it? because of one dark elf in one book? Alot more samurai were written about it than 1 dark elf.
More or less, yes, but it's been that way a long time now and is a standard trope of D&D; not something easily changed. That said, for them it's mostly a limitation in style compared to the fighter; it's kind of like, the fighter gets to be good at anything, the ranger has to pick between a few choices and still not be as good at them as the fighter.
The cavalier gets a lot of other bonuses that the ranger doesn't, and while I agree that he should be able to get something instead of mounted combat, why should it be TWF? Twohanded weapon styles or polearm styles would be more historically fitting.3) rangers do alot more than TWF
Yes, and I don't see what that has to do with anything.
4) feats are set up in a way that everyone spams dexterity. the fighter used to be a class that didnt prioritize dexterity, now its a str and dex class. im tired of seeing everyone spam dex just to get a fighting style they want to be like/look like the character they have in their head.
Yeah, it's so sad that I have to put points into strength to be good at wielding a great-axe... Oh, wait. It makes perfect sense, just as having to be dextrous to effectively wield two weapons at the same time makes sense. Note however, that you don't need a really high dex to dual-wield effectively. A dex of 15 at level 1 and 17 at level 6 or so is enough, the third attack isn't that important and can be picked up far later.
everyone wants to build a legolas and so they want to bow shoot and TWF (even tho he does it maybe three times in the entire trilogy) and you need a high dex to be good with a bow, so you just double tap into TWF naturally anyway.
Didn't you just say that no-one twfed before drizzt? I can't remember where legolas twfs, ages since I read the books, but whatever. If the exception for dex requirements on the TWF feats is irrelevant, why does the ranger's bonus feats mean that much to you?
Basically, you need a decent dex to TWF. Which is appropriate.
5) whats the deal with the shield proficiency I've never seen a samurai shield anywhere. They get this proficiency for no other reason than it is attached to the cavalier archetype.
AFAIK (though I could very well be wrong, I'm no historian) shields were common in the japanese military, just not among the samurai. Thus it seems logical that they would get it as basic military training.
And I mean, druids get shield proficiency. I don't think [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid]these guys
were specifically trained in the use of shields.
Just want to point out, samurai did not use shields as they used two handed weapons. Some of the armor did have buckler like guards however.
The culture and weapons tech went a different way, but it was not as if they did not know what a shield was or that it was not in use.
Just want to point out, samurai did not use shields as they used two handed weapons. Some of the armor did have buckler like guards however.
Yes, and really, most classes gets shield proficiency even if it sometimes doesn't make sense. These are military characters, warriors that has trained a lot. I see a lot more reason for them to be able to pick up a shield and use it freely (whether due to having limited training with a shield, or through simply being experienced in fighting and getting the feel for it naturally), while I don't see why most bards, clerics, and druids should have it for free (from a thematic perspective, that is).
Just want to point out, samurai did not use shields as they used two handed weapons. Some of the armor did have buckler like guards however.Yes, and really, most classes gets shield proficiency even if it sometimes doesn't make sense. These are military characters, warriors that has trained a lot. I see a lot more reason for them to be able to pick up a shield and use it freely (whether due to having limited training with a shield, or through simply being experienced in fighting and getting the feel for it naturally), while I don't see why most bards, clerics, and druids should have it for free (from a thematic perspective, that is).
my point is everyone needs to use dex BUT the ranger, based on a character from a book with a VERY high dex. where as the samurai are more iconic for it.
No TWF wasnt in the game before drizzt.(essentially the drow of that period of the game ushered in the popularity of the ambidextrous, age but Ambi was too powerful so it was made into TWF) While Legolas was around before then, people used his influence for elf fighters. The original Ranger in DnD was a mess, could cast magic-user spells and druid spells in full armor (plate mail) he was essentially a gish and could only be human or half elf... so no legolas's.And i also mentioned the samurai could get a polearm fighting style or archery fighting style in lieu of the horse as well. I know i did, re read it.
The only other thing that might fit is a "bonded" weapon. the katana was so important to a samurai it was treated as if it was an ancestor its self, so this could extend in fantasy terms to 'whatever weapon', but i dont want to see the paladin power copy and pasted. Maybe some more thematically addressed powers like keen etc,
or what would be REALLY cool is that it takes on intelligence features, but only while in possession of a samurai.
Call it "Infuse Spirit Weapon"
The samurai can create a magical weapon by force of will alone. The samurai can only create one such weapon. He can craft the magic weapon as if he had the prerequisite feats according to his level. As a bonus the Samurai can impart an intelligence unto the weapon by giving it a name. This Intelligence and magical powers works only in the hands of the samurai who created it, After 11th level, the weapon retains its intelligence in the hands of, a descendant or successor to whom it was passed down to, or a samurai, ronin, or cavalier who has defeated the rightful owner in battle. The weapon must be in possession of the Samurai for 1 year and a day before the infused spirit can manifest. The weapon must be of masterwork quality, if the weapon is every lost or stolen the time must start over. Stealing an infused weapon will cancel the weapons effects permanently.
I dunno, something like that?
Would not heirloom weapon cover a weapon passed down though the family?
When I did my PF Samurai, I had the following, allowing the samurai to select from a number of possible ancestral weapon types. Sorry, it's long.
A samurai forms a special bond with the spirits of his long departed ancestors. These spirits grant the samurai special powers that enhance his prowess in battle (see also bushido techniques).
This bond takes the form of an ancestral weapon that his been passed down from generation to generation, and held in a place of honor by the samurai. This weapon is always a masterwork weapon of the samurai’s choice, but is typically one of the following preferred samurai weapons: great bow, halberd, katana (bastard sword), nagamaki (pole arm), naginata, no-dachi (greatsword), or spear.
Starting at 4th level, this ancestral bond allows a samurai that has remained true to his code of honor to enhance his ancestral weapon as a standard action by calling upon his ancestral spirits for 1 minute per samurai level. When summoned, the ancestral spirits grant the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For every three levels beyond 4th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 19th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5, or they can be used to add
any of the weapon properties listed hereafter up to a maximum of +10.
The samurai can the following special abilities to a melee ancestral weapon: axiomatic, brilliant energy, defending, disruption, flaming burst, flaming, frost, ghost touch, holy, icy burst, keen, merciful, shock, shocking burst, speed, thundering, and unholy.
The samurai can add the following special abilities to a ranged ancestral weapon: : axiomatic, brilliant energy, defending, distance, flaming burst, flaming, frost, holy, icy burst, merciful, shock, shocking burst, seeking, speed, thundering, and unholy.
Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s cost (see Table 15–9 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook). These bonuses are added to any properties the weapon already has, but duplicate abilities do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. The bonus and properties granted by the ancestral spirits are determined when the spirits are called and cannot be changed until the spirits are called again. The ancestral spirits impart no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other than the samurai but resume giving bonuses if returned to the samurai. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon. A samurai can use this ability once per day at 4th level, and one additional time per day for every four levels beyond 4th, to a total of five times per day at 20th level.
A samurai can make these enhancements and special properties granted by his ancestral spirits permanent by following the rules set forth in the Creating Magical Weapons section of Chapter 15 in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. The samurai must sacrifice the equivalent base price value in gold or gems as an offering to his ancestors. The ancestral weapon serves as the material component for this process, while the samurai’s ancestral spirits function as the required spellcaster with a caster level equal to the samurai’s level + 3. Making such enhancements and properties permanent in this manner takes only half the time required (1/2 day for each 1000 gp value of the base price).
If a samurai’s ancestral weapon is lost or stolen, the character must strive to recover it by any means that do not violate his code of honor or alignment. A samurai who knowingly abandons an ancestral weapon is treated as if he lost his honor, and cannot advance in level as a samurai until it is recovered, or he has atoned. A samurai who abandons a signature weapon and atones for the deed can begin to create a new ancestral weapon.
If an ancestral weapon is destroyed, the samurai loses the use of this ability for 30 days, or until he gains a level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the samurai takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls. After which time, he may begin to create a new ancestral weapon. If enough is left of the weapon to salvage (the shattered shards of a sword, for example), the samurai can reforge the weapon as if he were using the Craft (weaponsmithing) skill to make a masterwork weapon.
A daisho is an ancestral weapon given down from one generation to the next.
it is usually a katana and a the waikisashi ( many apologies for mispelling).
it does NOT mean that a diasho could not bee a Naginata.
TWF for a samuria= A big HELL NO.
Erm the word Daisho translates into Long and Short, referring directly to a set of a Katana and wakizashi in a matching pair. No a naginata could NOT be a daisho, daisho does NOT mean "ancestral weapon".
Interestingly the term daisho predates the katana and wakizashi as weapons. apparently an earlier weapon called the uchigatana was carried in two lengths together (daisho). Ive seen pictures of the uchigatana which honestly looks like a katana, so im assuming the difference is in manufacture.
The only way a naginata could be referred to in the term daisho is if it was leaning up a against a wall next to a nagimaki (a shorter female version) then the grammar 'daisho' could technically be used, but the daisho as a term is more 'slang' and not really used for anything "long and short" or "big and little" except paired/matched sword sets.
That being said, I was merely brainstorming for ideas for people who dont want a samurai with a horse.
Seems TWF is less of a bump than bonded weapons.
thank you for the education...
my only knowelwdge of that word was from the CW: samurai which forced the samurai to use a katana and the other blade.
still, I could do without the horse anyay....
I just don't want to be forced with a set of weapons to do it
edit: I'd also like to point out that I never payed it much head in tha tbook either and that I'm also not a fan of the cavlier either
you wouldnt be forced into a set of weapons. you could choose between TWF, Bow or Naginata/yari, or horse, thats not forced.
You could easily just put a quick archetype together that replaces the weapon training thing(don't have it in front of me so i cant get the name), and the bonus feats and turn that into the fighting style, because thats basically what those are. In turn it would go from them getting quick draw for free and qualifying for fighter feats to they can get feats from a list and not have to qualify for them, you could even tag on the mounted combat style to support their mounted feature more.
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Exactly... it was a specialist style. Musashi just got better press is all.I don't agree with the OP.
TWF wasn't the samurai historic style. Only a few great fighters went for it, such as musashi miyamoto. The kenjutsu main style was 2-handed.
Musahi did not get better press. He killed alot of people. Starting when he was 13 to his death. 64 duels if you lost you died. He fought in 2 wars. He was the one that started Ichiden ( One Way Two Swords ). Up untill him no one used the Dashio as a hole. After him there where a few that tryed to mimic his style. The amount of samurai that used two swords is somthing like 10,000 to 1. So I have never realy agreed that samurai should get twf. Miyamoto Masashi style of Icheden uses the katana or wakazash to block then using the other to attack with. You never use both for attacking in the style he created.
P.S. I might be a few off in the number of duels. I don't feal like looking it up.
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Exactly... it was a specialist style. Musashi just got better press is all.I don't agree with the OP.
TWF wasn't the samurai historic style. Only a few great fighters went for it, such as musashi miyamoto. The kenjutsu main style was 2-handed.
Musahi did not get better press. He killed alot of people. Starting when he was 13 to his death. 64 duels if you lost you died. He fought in 2 wars. He was the one that started Ichiden ( One Way Two Swords ). Up untill him no one used the Dashio as a hole. After him there where a few that tryed to mimic his style. The amount of samurai that used two swords is somthing like 10,000 to 1. So I have never realy agreed that samurai should get twf. Miyamoto Masashi style of Icheden uses the katana or wakazash to block then using the other to attack with. You never use both for attacking in the style he created.
P.S. I might be a few off in the number of duels. I don't feal like looking it up.
Thirded. They were primarily and iconically warriors proficient with two-handed weapons (including longbows and polearms), not TWF.
You could easily just put a quick archetype together that replaces the weapon training thing(don't have it in front of me so i cant get the name), and the bonus feats and turn that into the fighting style, because thats basically what those are. In turn it would go from them getting quick draw for free and qualifying for fighter feats to they can get feats from a list and not have to qualify for them, you could even tag on the mounted combat style to support their mounted feature more.
AHA see thats what ive been saying.
"Samurai" did use shields historically.
The name "samurai" is actually relatively recent. The ancient terms for "warrior" were mononofu and tsuwamono.
The samurai concept is tied to the cavalier because originally the warrior caste were mounted combatants. They used shields and spears from horseback (or on foot) during the proto-historical period. Influence from the Chinese transformed them into mounted archers, leading to the development of the early "Samurai Code" known as Kyuba no Michi ... literally "The Way of Horse and Bow".
However, shields were used regularly in Japan prior to the Heian era....
Historical accuracy and clarification is fine. Many of the comments made earlier about shield use is correct if you look contextually at the era from which the 'class is being built'.
The Class is called Samurai, right? Not mononofu and tsuwamono? If we are going to use the time frame of the Pre-Heian period, we change the name to Mononofu and they get the straight, crappy quality, chinese style blades of the era.
Given that the name "samurai" is actually relatively recent and was after they stopped using shields, it is just as fair to say that Samurai didn't use shields... Japanese warriors during the Proto Historical period did, but what we are choosing (for game purposes, given that we are trying to capture a period rather than the entirety of Japanese history) Samurai (you can go as early as Kamakura Period, but realistically we'd be drawing from as far back as the Late Muromachi period) did not use shields... heck, Katana themselves weren't invented until the 1400's - the late Muromachi period.
So if we are giving the Samurai Katana, then shields don't fit historically.
thank you heleman i was going to say something earlier and didnt have time.
+1
Musashi claimed to have fought in 6 battles, though some doubt has been cast upon his participation in the seminole Battle of Sekigahara. Most of them were during the Tokugawa/Toyotomi conflict of 1600.
I'm assuming you intended this to mean that Musashi might not have been at Sekigahara, but most of the battles he fought in were during the Tokugawa/Toyotomi conflict, right? It sounded like you are saying that that the battle was seperate from the conflict my first read through.
On topic: Considering how rare it was to find a Samurai that fought with a katana and wakizashi (lets face it TWF isn't all that common a fighting style compared to others), building a character to use the TWF seems appropriate to me.
I'm going to be honest: I really did care about historical Samurai before these discussions started on the messageboards. I no longer care. T/he constant bickering and competition over who knows more about Samurai.
I'm looking at this solely as an option for a game that I love. In past incarnations of the Samurai (OE and 3.5), Samurai could choose TWF as an option, or were relegated to using TWF due to class options, and did not need the requisite Dex. If a player wants to bring over a player from those versions to Pathfinder (which to me sounds like a perfectly reasonable expectation) and they don't have the requisite Dex, their options are 1)Reimagine their combat style and choose feats that they require for (including mounted archery). 2)They can houserule the class. 3) They can play their "Samurai" as a Ranger, and figure out what to do with all of the other abilities that fit for a Ranger but don't work at all for them.
None of those sound that appealing to me. Particularly at this stage. It seems easy enough to provide an option. If you are particularly excited about playing a historical samurai (however you define the term), go for it. If you want to play a samurai that fights with a Daisho, as you have in previous versions: here's an option for you as well. That to me is just good game design.
However, I realize I interrupted an argument on whether or not Miyamoto won 64 duels or 63. Please continue.
I'm going to be honest: I really did care about historical Samurai before these discussions started on the messageboards. I no longer care. T/he constant bickering and competition over who knows more about Samurai.
I'm looking at this solely as an option for a game that I love. In past incarnations of the Samurai (OE and 3.5), Samurai could choose TWF as an option, or were relegated to using TWF due to class options, and did not need the requisite Dex. If a player wants to bring over a player from those versions to Pathfinder (which to me sounds like a perfectly reasonable expectation) and they don't have the requisite Dex, their options are 1)Reimagine their combat style and choose feats that they require for (including mounted archery). 2)They can houserule the class. 3) They can play their "Samurai" as a Ranger, and figure out what to do with all of the other abilities that fit for a Ranger but don't work at all for them.
None of those sound that appealing to me. Particularly at this stage. It seems easy enough to provide an option. If you are particularly excited about playing a historical samurai (however you define the term), go for it. If you want to play a samurai that fights with a Daisho, as you have in previous versions: here's an option for you as well. That to me is just good game design.
However, I realize I interrupted an argument on whether or not Miyamoto won 64 duels or 63. Please continue.
See that's what ive been saying from the beginning, whether or not how many real world samurai did or didnt fight two weapon style is irrelevant it is something fantasy samurai are know for way more than what rangers were ever known for, TWF samurai were running around before anyone wrote about darkelves with scimitars.
I personally cant remember a fantasy samurai that DIDNT TWF.
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I'm going to be honest: I really did care about historical Samurai before these discussions started on the messageboards. I no longer care. T/he constant bickering and competition over who knows more about Samurai.
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I personally cant remember a fantasy samurai that DIDNT TWF.
And "unfortunately" enough, I as a person who was born, brought up and still lives in Japan, can't remember a fantasy samurai that DID TWF except Musashi in fictions, or his incarnations, as the rare genius swordman in a warring world.
In that sense, I'd be happy to see some options (like feats, archetypes, any alternate class or whatsoever) of TWF for player characters as truly rare damn cool heroes or paragons, but still hope NOT to see some bloated bunches of TWF samurai lurking around the world as the standard, or as the norm of Pathfinder RPG's Samurai.
Probably, the reason I still care such discussions over Samurai in the historical sense is because I'm a Japanese living in Japan and probably embrace certain images and memories of samurai different from the vast majority of the people here. So, maybe, I should just remain as a silent foreign observer here, trying to find more preferrable games elsewhere, like Sengoku (by A.J. Bryant & M.T. Arsenault, revised 2002) or Blood and Honor (by J. Wick, 2010) that can offer gaming fluffs and crunches that quite fit my images/memories of samurai, if I want to play in or run some medieval Japanesque campaigns.
Or, maybe I just ignorant about pop-culture and American version samurai heroes.
Be that as it may, I agree that there's been too much of bickering and competition to keep enjoy caring about Samurai class casually or gamewisely. Anyway, it's a game basically belonging to people from the US and its Samurai to her Orientalism (my salutes to Prof. E. Said), though I still love people here at Paizo and Pathfinder.
: )
[Edit] Heck, I still enjoy the discussion here, keep it going, mate.
I'm going to be honest: I really did care about historical Samurai before these discussions started on the messageboards. I no longer care. T/he constant bickering and competition over who knows more about Samurai.
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I personally cant remember a fantasy samurai that DIDNT TWF.And "unfortunately" enough, I as a person who was born, brought up and still lives in Japan, can't remember a fantasy samurai that DID TWF except Musashi in fictions, or his incarnations, as the rare genius swordman in a warring world.
: )
[Edit] Heck, I still enjoy the discussion here, keep it going, mate.
See the thing is, the fantasy samurai has gotten up and ran way from Japan, Japan and fantasy samurai are no longer even related.
Jedi were influenced by samurai.DnD samurai in all iterations of it for the last 20 years have had TWF options.
So what samurai did or didnt do in Japan is entirely besides the point. TWF samurai is just as much as sacred cow (and predates) the ranger TWF sacred cow.
When American envisionment of fantasy samurai were taking shape, Japan had long ago gotten bored with samurai and were focused on giant robots and power rangers.
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See the thing is, the fantasy samurai has gotten up and ran way from Japan, Japan and fantasy samurai are no longer even related.
Jedi were influenced by samurai.
DnD samurai in all iterations of it for the last 20 years have had TWF options.So what samurai did or didnt do in Japan is entirely besides the point. TWF samurai is just as much as sacred cow (and predates) the ranger TWF sacred cow.
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Thanks for your reply. I've played Classic (BECMI), v3.5 (not including OA) and 4e D&Ds in my life, but never played a D&D Samurai. So I don't hesitate to see a incarnation of the previous D&D's TWF Samurai in Pathfinder RPG as you mentioned, taking part in the Oriental Adventures's legacy.
And while I really admire your enthusiasm, knowledge, and love on samurai or Japan that can be seen on your posts...
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When American envisionment of fantasy samurai were taking shape, Japan had long ago gotten bored with samurai and were focused on giant robots and power rangers.
HAVE YOU EVER READ a vast number of samurai novels and mangas in Japanese published in these decades??
I don't mind how you take your D&D or Pathfinder Samurai at all, BUT I DO mind how you represent Japan in the reality. Please do not define us, Japan, and her history in the reality like this by your presumption and Orientalism. This is not the first time. PLEASE DON'T.
I blame Samurai Showdown, specificly Yagyu Jubei, who was depicted as fighting with both swords.
DnD samurai in all iterations of it for the last 20 years have had TWF options.
Now I haven't played the original OA or 2nd Ed for well over a decade, but what I remember was that Two Weapon Fighting could be bought with Weapon Proficiencies instead of a specific weapon or another fighting style like the two handed fighting style. in the 3rd Ed OA, Two Weapon fighting was suggested as bonus feats if you were playing a Samurai based on the Dragon Clan (one of 8 great clans/combat styles) as they loosely patterned the Miromoto family after Musashi. In all these cases the Samurai had to play by the same rules as every one else.
It seems odd to me that they should go from having to get Two Weapons like every one else to it being a manditory aspect that allows them to ignore the normal restrictions too. I'd honestly drop the Dex requirements to 10 or 12 (as well as similar stat requirements for other feats) instead.
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It seems odd to me that they should go from having to get Two Weapons like every one else to it being a manditory aspect that allows them to ignore the normal restrictions too. I'd honestly drop the Dex requirements to 10 or 12 (as well as similar stat requirements for other feats) instead.
Since it seems only the more scholarly types of samurai in fantasy did some dual wielding, change the requirements to an INT stat, like 14. This would distinguish the TWF samurai, the class itself from the ranger, and it is an easy enough requirement.
I think it is the better of compromises and works for low fantasy just as good as high fantasy.
DnD samurai in all iterations of it for the last 20 years have had TWF options.Now I haven't played the original OA or 2nd Ed for well over a decade, but what I remember was that Two Weapon Fighting could be bought with Weapon Proficiencies instead of a specific weapon or another fighting style like the two handed fighting style. in the 3rd Ed OA, Two Weapon fighting was suggested as bonus feats if you were playing a Samurai based on the Dragon Clan (one of 8 great clans/combat styles) as they loosely patterned the Miromoto family after Musashi. In all these cases the Samurai had to play by the same rules as every one else.
It seems odd to me that they should go from having to get Two Weapons like every one else to it being a manditory aspect that allows them to ignore the normal restrictions too. I'd honestly drop the Dex requirements to 10 or 12 (as well as similar stat requirements for other feats) instead.
Original OA worked different its hard to compare, but with the old proficency system you just didnt take something like naginata and took TWF (older version was better/more powerful too) it was way easier to do, you werent loose something, like feats you habe to burn to twf, you just didnt pick something you didnt want in the first place and took something you did (like TWF)
In my case, like i was saying, if you dont want mount, give options, like TWF or i dunno bonded weapon or something.Bonded weapon seems to fit the divine theme of the paladin, i thought TWF was more 'samurai' than bonded weapon....
Hey, thought I would chime in here. I have enjoyed the discussion on history. Have always been interested in Japanese History. So in that thanks. I agree with Skaorn, I own the 3rd editions versions of both OA and Rokugan, both which used a fighter version of a samurai and it was his "school" that his bonus feats came from. One did use a lot of TWF, but then one school did heavy focus on speed draw fighting. I personally over all like both the Rokugan samurai and ninja better, but they would be hard to balance with PF setting. I don't think they should get the feats free, but I do agree with more options than just mounted combat, so something a kin to OA/Rokugan schools and both versions had an enchanting system for the daisho. OA used gold Rokugan used low amounts of xp, which personally seemed to fit more with the idea of using part of your soul/spirit to empower your weapon. Their system for passing it down was each new generation had to start over again, but each starting samurai got free daisho at masterwork quality from the beginning. So, my point in this jumbled mess is yes more options and either (best both OA & Rougan) have ideas for said options.
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samurai should get TWF with katana and wakizashi as a bonus feat at level 1 or maybe 3 without having to have the prerequisite dex, just like ranger combat style, either that or be able to pick between a polearm style, a daisho style and a longbow style, similar to ranger, because these are landmark abilities of samurai.
I disagree. Just as I noted that a samurai riding a horse was an odd class feature IMO the two-weapon fighting style is also hardly landmark. Since I dislike history as a reference, I'll point out that in L5R (a game where everyone is a samurai) of the 9 clans only one school in one clan fights with the katana and wakisashi style.
Seems to me that samurai who desperately want to can either be simulated efficiently with fighter or just take the feats.
2) why do rangers get it? because of one dark elf in one book? Alot more samurai were written about it than 1 dark elf.
that´s an argument about the ranger, not the samurai. also is your 4) - I agree that it´s strange that rangers can be full str twfers while fighters can´t but that´s not the topic
5) whats the deal with the shield proficiency I've never seen a samurai shield anywhere. They get this proficiency for no other reason than it is attached to the cavalier archetype.
yeah, true.
I´d change katana = bastard sword to katana = greatsword, 2H suits samurais the most in my opinion
1) they should get something to be a choice instead of horse.
samurais rode.
see it as a bonus, like the rangers endurance (nobody picks endurance as free feat)
The only other thing that might fit is a "bonded" weapon. the katana was so important to a samurai it was treated as if it was an ancestor its self, so this could extend in fantasy terms to 'whatever weapon', but i dont want to see the paladin power copy and pasted. Maybe some more thematically addressed powers like keen etc,or what would be REALLY cool is that it takes on intelligence features, but only while in possession of a samurai.
Call it "Infuse Spirit Weapon"
The samurai can create a magical weapon by force of will alone. The...
think about balance. right now it sounds like you want the samurai to be a gestalt ranger/chevalier/paladin.
yes, samurais as iconic characters are strong. as every iconic char is.think of what the class is like at lvl 1. uber ancestral swords don´t fit lvl 1 chars. high lev chars tend to have good weapons even if they have no special ability about that.
The samurai can create a magical weapon by force of will alone. The samurai can only create one such weapon. He can craft the magic weapon as if he had the prerequisite feats according to his level.
samurais fight. blacksmiths create weapons.
I personally cant remember a fantasy samurai that DIDNT TWF.
How many fantasy samurais are there anyway?
And how much does a pnp character behave like a movie or book hero anyway?
You've clearly never played alot of DnD with Samurais, there have been tons of them at every gaming table in the last 20 years.
Not the mention all the paladium derivations.
[Original OA worked different its hard to compare, but with the old proficency system you just didnt take something like naginata and took TWF (older version was better/more powerful too) it was way easier to do, you werent loose something, like feats you habe to burn to twf, you just didnt pick something you didnt want in the first place and took something you did (like TWF)
In my case, like i was saying, if you dont want mount, give options, like TWF or i dunno bonded weapon or something.
Bonded weapon seems to fit the divine theme of the paladin, i thought TWF was more 'samurai' than bonded weapon....
My point is that everyone still had to follow the same rules. If I made a Samurai in 2nd Ed I could take Katana, Wakizashi, Daikyu, and TWF (fighters got 4 Weapon Prof. at 1st level IIRC) but would not be able to take naginata, yari, weapon specialization, two handed weapon fighting, etc. You didn't get TWF free, completely ignoring the proficiency system, so you were in fact loosing something by specializing in TWF.
I've got no problem with people who want a different option then a mount for samurai. I don't think it will be a part of the class though since Cavalier doesn't get to replace it and it has already been printed. Instead I think that Paizo will release Archetypes for both that replace their mounted combat abilities. I think Samurai Archetype would probably be things like "Duelist" and "Yojimbo" but not any thing as specific as the TWF Samurai. Paizo was trying for a more historically accurate Samurai and you can achieve TWF with Feats fairly easily. I just don't see the reasoning for them to get a free pass on the requirements for TWF.