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Ok, here is how I statted it out, going for a 'conquistadore' theme. The design intention was to make him sort of like a switch hitter, charging in with the lance, then firing the musket on the same target, then withdrawing on horseback to reload and charge back in. TWF didn't make sense with two pistols, the grit feats just seemed like crap, so I didn't take them.
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Gunslinger 5th lvl
Human
Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 13
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 8
Init: +4 (+6 with Gunslinger Initiative)
For: +4 Ref: +9 Wil: +9 (includes +1 Cloak of Resistance)
AC: 20
HP: 40
Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Mounted Combat
Weapon Focus: Musket
Mounted Archery
Class Features:
Firearms (musket)
Grit (2)
Gun Training (+4 to attack and damage)
Deeds:
Quick Clear, Leap for Cover, Deadeye
Pistol Whip, Gunslinger Init
Items:
Breastplate +1
Musket +1
Potion of Blur
MW Lance
Smokestick x3
Thunderstone x2
Heavy Warhorse, Military saddle, Adv gear
Potion of Magic Weapon
Attacks
Musket: +14, dam 1d12+5 (BAB+5, Dex+4, Mag+1, Gun Train+4)
Pistol Whip: +12, dam 1d8+5 (BAB+5, Str+1, Gun Train+4, Pistol Whip+2)
Lance charge: +9, dam 2b8+4 (BAB+5, Str+1, Charge+2, MW+1)
[I geared him up like a heroic NPC, which prob. should have been higher]
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Encounter: Random encounter in Kingmaker AP against my usual group. Terrain was lightly wooded area, with some good lines of sight with trees and brush to hide around. The group was all of third level, a cleric, a fighter, a monk and a sorceror/fighter. They were well rested and reasonably equipped for their level.
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Round-by-Round:
1)Started off 120' from party, ready to charge. The GS loses initiative to the cleric, and is held by a Hold Person spell. The party maneuvers to get into range
2)GS fails secondary Hold Person save. The sorc lands 5 damage with a Magic Missile, the party continues to advance through the undergrowth in flanking positions.
3) GS made the Will save to break the Hold Person spell. Still mounted, he withdraws to get in better position.
4) GS and party maneuver around, the GS gets a charge lined up against the monk.
5) The GS charges in against the Monk, the attack roll fails. The fighter and monk wisely attack the horse for 18 damage.
6) GS drops lance, draws musket (avoids AoO) and shoots at Monk. Rolled a 2, misses, jams. The sorc drops the horse are in melee range and take down the horse. GS makes ride check and lands softly. The GS takes 12 damage from the fighter and monk.
7) GS uses pistol whip for one grit to hit the monk, misses. Monk hits the GS for 6 points.
8) GS Pistol whips for the last time, hits the monk for 8 pts of damage. Fighter and Monk continue to assault the GS, he is hit by the fighter for 4 pts.
9) GS drops musket (out of grit), draws a mundane LS, swings and misses. The party cannot land a blow, either, Sorc casts true strike
10) GS swings with LS, misses and tries to move away (AoOs fail). Monk lands a hit for 4 pts, the sorc lands the killing blow with a charge and his dragon blood line claws.
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Comments:
Al-in-all, I was very disappointed with the class, he had staying power, but was pretty ineffectual. If I brought in a level 5 fighter or ranger, I would have been mopping the floor with my players. Some of that may have been from poor feat choices or tactics, but the damage output was horrible, plus rolling a 2 and misfiring in melee sucked HARD. The class in general is feat starved. I really wanted dodge and rapid reload, but couldn't make it work. The class needs to provide feats as automatic class features to make it work better (see the ranger). Here are more specific comments:
Class Abilities:
-Firearms class feature is really the only reason to take the class. Get the firearms at level 1, take the rest in rogue for sneak attack damage.
-Gun Training, what does this stack with? Does it apply to melee attacks with the weapon as well (i included it in my pistol whips)
Deeds:
-Targeting Deed, could this be changed to a feat? I'm sure many x-bow users would like this as well. X-bows are every bit as accurate as these guns.
-Blast lock, really? Why is it so much harder for the GS to hit the lock when any melee user could do it much easier. Not worht the use of a VERY limited grit pool.
-Scoot Object, seems like a great way to intentionally miss objects and destroy them.
-Stunning Shot and Deadly shot, the effects of these are not dependent on the amount of damage dealt, so please leave in the critical damage. These are level 19 deeds that cost grit, as-is they are worhtless.
-Leap for Cover, does it require grit to use? How many? Seems neat, but not good for close range weapons.
-Pistol Whip, it says "surprise attack," it seems like it was intended to catch the opponent flat-footed. Using a point of grit for a flat-footed attack would be great.
Feats:
-Rapid Reload, change the specialization to either firearms or x-bows to reduce the feat tax. Specifically applying to a type of firearm or x-bow is too niche.
-Ricochet Shot, cool idea, but gun ranges make it limited in use.
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Gun Rules:
These just don't work. There are too many negatives to make them work. Also, the class is feat starved and does not make up for those negatives enough to make the class playable. The base damage per gun is simply 'On Par' with other weapons.
Cons:
-High cost of guns [class reduces somewhat, but you have to buy NEW guns (3300 GP for pistols, 3800 GP for muskets) because the starting firearms are not MW]
-High cost of ammo [class reduces somewhat, but once you run out of your 50 shots, you are throwing away 11 gold per shot]
-Low ranges [class does not help with this at all]
-Hard to use [class gives you proficiency, but guns were historically easy to use with little training, so the rules cause a problem that the class has to compensate for]
-High Misfire chance [class only partially helps to relieve this, but the fixes consume a resource and take up a lot of time]
-Slow Reload Time [class does not help at all, you have to buy Rapid Reload, and it only works on one type of gun]
-Lack of iterative attacks [Class does not help, the only way around is with quick draw and LOTS of guns hanging around your neck]
-Difficulty in adding damage modifiers [class only helps a little bit with Gun Training, but you can't take weapon specialization chain, power attack or many of the other goodies that 'real' fighters get]
Pros:
-Hits Touch AC at close range [this is great, but you gotta get in pretty close to hit]
-That's it, no other pros for guns in my opinion.
I hope this input helps to make this class better because I want it to work.
I removed a post (and the replies to it.)
Constructive criticism and legitimate questions are welcome in the playtest threads. Telling someone they did it wrong is not.
Ok, here is how I statted it out, going for a 'conquistadore' theme. The design intention was to make him sort of like a switch hitter, charging in with the lance, then firing the musket on the same target, then withdrawing on horseback to reload and charge back in. TWF didn't make sense with two pistols, the grit feats just seemed like crap, so I didn't take them.
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Question: Were there poor dice rolls that contributed to the feeling that the GS was completely innedfectual? It seems like the Atk bonuses were nice and high but there were a lot of misses.
Also, I question the tactic of charging into melee and then trying to use the gun. I'd be really interested to see the same basic stats but built for purely ranged combat, along with a scenario that puts those abilities to use. I have a fealing it would be very different.
And IMO at lvl 5 dealing 1d12 + 5 dmg per hit(avg of 11) is not too shabby.
Thanks for the clear, concise playtest. It's helping me decide if I am going to use the GS in my campaign world.
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Question: Were there poor dice rolls that contributed to the feeling that the GS was completely innedfectual? It seems like the Atk bonuses were nice and high but there were a lot of misses.
Also, I question the tactic of charging into melee and then trying to use the gun. I'd be really interested to see the same basic stats but built for purely ranged combat, along with a scenario that puts those abilities to use. I have a fealing it would be very different.
A short answer, yes. A poor dice roll with any other class just means you get to try again. With the gunslinger, it means you're done for in melee range.
The reason I chaged first was to minimize the effect of the party cleric. At the time, the cleric was well out of channel range, so if I got the charge in and the shot on the next round, I could have dropped the monk before the cleric could channeled. With the GS slow rate of fire, any shooting I did from range could have been negated by cleric spamming channel energies.
The class really can't stand on it's own against a group. It needs friends to keep the pressure on while he reloads.
hmmm is it possible to ride by attack with a musket shot? it would leave you far enough to reload and you wouldn't have to worry about switch hitting.
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hmmm is it possible to ride by attack with a musket shot? it would leave you far enough to reload and you wouldn't have to worry about switch hitting.
In a more open place, yes it would leave him with enough space to do so. However, I think getting off 1 shot every two rounds would be quickly mitigated by the party cleric. Even if he targeted the cleric first, it would be a long and expensive (11 gp per shot) fight.
hmmm is it possible to ride by attack with a musket shot? it would leave you far enough to reload and you wouldn't have to worry about switch hitting.In a more open place, yes it would leave him with enough space to do so. However, I think getting off 1 shot every two rounds would be quickly mitigated by the party cleric. Even if he targeted the cleric first, it would be a long and expensive (11 gp per shot) fight.
2 shots every round gets pretty well mitigated too, the class has damage problems, I just figure you can at least apply status effects each shot. On second thought same idea but with a large pistol, faster reloading xP
shoot the clerics holy symbol out of his hand and do whatever else you can think of to help, your already a fifth wheel
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hmmm is it possible to ride by attack with a musket shot? it would leave you far enough to reload and you wouldn't have to worry about switch hitting.In a more open place, yes it would leave him with enough space to do so. However, I think getting off 1 shot every two rounds would be quickly mitigated by the party cleric. Even if he targeted the cleric first, it would be a long and expensive (11 gp per shot) fight.2 shots every round gets pretty well mitigated too, the class has damage problems, I just figure you can at least apply status effects each shot. On second thought same idea but with a large pistol, faster reloading xP
shoot the clerics holy symbol out of his hand and do whatever else you can think of to help, your already a fifth wheel
In my playtest, it was the gunslinger AGAINST a party of four. Looking back, there was no way he could win the fight without help.
I also don't like melee for the gunslinger honestly, to much danger for my ultra rare super expensive guns to be in.
If it breaks or is lost any number of ways you become about as good as a monk in medium armor with no IUS, for the next few levels most likely, unless you want to travel to alkenstar and spend 1000 gold. No thank you