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OK,
I can't seem to find anything pushing this question either way. So i'm reaching out for input.
Can a character utilize sneak attack on a target already in combat. For example:
Mark the Brave is fighting a vile Orc. Splat the rogue has been hiding well before the combat ever started. Splat wants to get involved in the fight and fires his crossbow. Granted he takes the penalty for firing into melee, but does he get Sneak Attack still?
In this same scenario lets say Splat was close enough for melee engagement. Would he be able to attack the orc (Not flanking) and gain sneak attack on the first attack?
Also in the above scenarios if you believe he DOES get the sneak attack does he attack the orcs' Flat Footed AC?
Any/All input is welcomed!
Thanks.
By raw, no.
-You cannot fight while stealthed.
-There is no provision in the stealth skill for loosing your dex against a stealthed foe.
-The target is not flat footed. Flat footed is not a condition relative to the attackers, it is a condition that either is or is not on the defender. Since the defender is in combat and has acted, he is not flat footed.
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-The target is not flat footed. Flat footed is not a condition relative to the attackers, it is a condition that either is or is not on the defender. Since the defender is in combat and has acted, he is not flat footed.
And this is the issue I had with it. The interpretation of Flat Footed. Which is why i'm asking the question.
I know this is about to be an issue a campaign i'm going to be starting and bless my players for going with whatever my ruling is on the matter as the DM I want to be fair about it. And have it make sense to all sides.
Fighting while stealthed...Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
By the raw, an obscured location is not the same as invisibility.
If you want to be FAIR, i would let the rogue sneak attack and let successful stealth work like invisibility. If you follow the rules to the letter rogues have a REALLY hard time sneak attacking anything.
Raw: [i]It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
Sniping is a specific exception to that, but the rule does exist.
Flat-footed is a condition just like being stunned or sickened. Either you are or you are not. You can't be flat-footed against only one opponent anymore than you can be stunned against only one opponent.
As for attacking from a hidden position you do get sneak attack damage for the first attack, but once you attack your position is given away, and the rest of the shots, assuming your BAB is high enough, do not get sneak attack damage.
Sweet! Thanks alot for the input.
I'm going to go with the ruling of Splat getting the sneak attack of course, but he doesn't garner the Flat Footed AC target if the target is currently engaged in combat with someone else.
Well the target does lose dex against the hidden attacker. Anytime you lose dex you use the flat-footed AC even if you are not flat-footed.
It is called flat-footed AC because most of the time when you are denied dex you are flat-footed.
then what about feint ability it makes your opponent flat footed to you.
There is no such provision.
Feint makes your opponent loose his dex bonus against you, which is not the same as being flat footed. For example, if you feint a pole arm fighter with spiked armor and then try to move 30 feet away from him, he can still whack you when you leave his threatened squares.
Feint: You can use Bluff to feint in combat, causing your opponent to be denied his Dexterity bonus to his AC against your next attack. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. For more information on feinting in combat, see Combat.
and i agree you can't fight while in stealth; but in this case he was in stealth then attacked.( i know it seems like semantics but it really isn't.) he would be come out of stealth as he attacked but the better option for the player in question would be to stealth to flanking position then attack.
There's nothing in the description of the stealth skill that allows for a loss of dexterity against the stealthers attacks.
but using the current situation the would it be better to consider the Orc surprised by the rogue, there for denied Dex for one attack for sneak attack damage. he gets one action then goes into the normal initiative rotation on the next round of combat.
The orc can't be surprised, he can't loose his turn, he's already in combat.
The rogue either rolls initiative at the beggining, or comes in at the top of the round. Its not fair to give the rogue the possibility of going twice before anyone can react to his presence.
yeah i miss typed on the feint.i meant the dex denial.
Its a very subtle distinction. I don't even think they purged it from all of the spells.
so if a rogues is stealthed and attacks he never gets his sneak damage in your game?
Its not how I'd do it but I'm aware that my ruling is against the raw. Its not quite as bad as 3.5 but a rogue getting in a sneak attack still seems to be damn near a planetary alignment.
i would consider this a wrong assumption. considering that surprise consists of one standard action on the part of the attacker side of things.
There is no mechanism in the rules for having a surprise round mid combat. Also, consider if the instead of a fighter attacking the orc, its another rogue. Frick engages the orc in melee, frack hides in the bushes. Frack waits till the fight starts, pops out of the bushes. Since you're Declaring the orc to be flat footed both Frick AND Frack can sneak attack him.
as well as denying the orc his Dex for one partial action to the rogue only. the orc looses nothing but his Dex bonus for one action. that can be an attack when the rogue comes out of stealth.
The orc also looses his ability to make attacks of opportunity. So, as you're ruling it, the rogue could run up without cover OR stealth and hit him with a melee weapon in a partial charge. Because the orc is flat footed, he can't do anything about it.
unaware target is flatfooted. under the surprise. the orc is unaware of the rogue. so for one action he is flatfooted only in relation to the rogue.
A---> B does not mean that B----->A.
Just because you loose your dex when you are flat footed does not mean that you are flat footed every time you loose your dex.
just because his party members are in combat does not mean a stealthed character is in combat. but i see the two action argument. so you have him come in at a specific initiative whenever he goes that is the initiative he is stuck with.
Right, he decides what initiative to decloak at, and he's stuck there.
The answer to this question was dealt with way back in 3.5 FAQ and those rulings generally stand unless PF has specifically changed them, which in this case it has not. The answer is YES, if you attack from Stealth you gain SA damage. However, you leave Stealth when you attack so you will only get SA on the first attack then you are plainly visible.
As quoted by Nethys HERE:
Q:If a rogue has successfully hidden behind some bushes and fires an arrow at a target less than 30 feet away from her, does she deal sneak attack damage?
A:Yes. The rules don’t come right out and say this, but a character who has successfully hidden from an opponent is considered invisible for the purpose of rendering that foe flatfooted, and thus deals sneak attack damage.
The answer to this question was dealt with way back in 3.5 FAQ and those rulings generally stand unless PF has specifically changed them, which in this case it has not. The answer is YES, if you attack from Stealth you gain SA damage. However, you leave Stealth when you attack so you will only get SA on the first attack then you are plainly visible.
As quoted by Nethys HERE:
Q:If a rogue has successfully hidden behind some bushes and fires an arrow at a target less than 30 feet away from her, does she deal sneak attack damage?
A:Yes. The rules don’t come right out and say this, but a character who has successfully hidden from an opponent is considered invisible for the purpose of rendering that foe flatfooted, and thus deals sneak attack damage.
I know this is a thematic balance issue for this particular case, but in this example the rogue is attempting a sneak attack (precise damage) against a target in close combat.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Normally, if the target has concealment you can't sneak attack- I personally would rule that a rogue fighting at range, firing into close combat without precise shot would suffer the same restriction. A -4 to hit with the possibility of hitting your ally seems like it should qualify.
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For reference, from the d20pfsrd.
If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.
Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
The Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants
Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC and Combat Manuever Defense (CMD) (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat or Uncanny Dodge class ability.
Characters with Uncanny Dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat.
The ability to move about unseen is not foolproof. While they can't be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt.
Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision.
Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger's favored enemy and from sneak attacks.
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.
Invisible creature is... Perception DC Modifier
In combat or speaking –20
Moving at half speed –5
Moving at full speed –10
Running or charging –20
Not moving +40 +20*
Using Stealth Stealth check +20
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door) +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15* From unofficial Paizo board post by SKR (10/12/10)
A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature's current location. If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.
If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.
If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment(and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow invisible creature might get a smaller miss chance.
If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy's not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there and tell him that the character has missed, regardless of the result. That way the player doesn't know whether the attack missed because the enemy's not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance.
If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour falls off or blows away).
Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature's location.
An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment.
A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one.
A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss chance roll rather than two 50% miss chance rolls.)
A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility.
An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light or similar spell cast upon it.
Ethereal creatures are invisible. Since ethereal creatures are not materially present, Perception checks, scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don't help locate them. Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don't help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Perception checks can help.
Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks.
Invisibility does not thwart divination spells.
Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible.
You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to slip past foes or strike from an unseen position. This skill covers hiding and moving silently.
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Stealth checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Special:
If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving.
If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on all Stealth skill checks. If you have 10 or more ranks in Stealth, the bonus increases to +4.
Your senses allow you to notice fine details and alert you to danger. Perception covers all five senses, including sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell.
Detail Perception DC
Hear the sound of battle –10
Notice the stench of rotting garbage –10
Detect the smell of smoke 0
Hear the details of a conversation 0
Notice a visible creature 0
Determine if food is spoiled 5
Hear the sound of a creature walking 10
Hear the details of a whispered conversation 15
Find the average concealed door 15
Hear the sound of a key being turned in a lock 20
Find the average secret door 20
Hear a bow being drawn 25
Sense a burrowing creature underneath you 25
Notice a pickpocket Opposed by Sleight of Hand
Notice a creature using Stealth Opposed by Stealth
Find a hidden trap Varies by trap
Identify the powers of a potion through taste 15 + the potion's caster level
Perception Modifiers DC Modifier
Distance to the source, object, or creature +1/10 feet
Through a closed door +5
Through a wall +10/foot of thickness
Favorable conditions1 –2
Unfavorable conditions1 +2
Terrible conditions2 +5
Creature making the check is distracted +5
Creature making the check is asleep +10
Creature or object is invisible +20
1 Favorable and unfavorable conditions depend upon the sense being used to make the check. For example, bright light might increase the DC of checks involving sight, while torchlight or moonlight might give a penalty. Background noise might reduce a DC involving hearing, while competing odors might penalize any DC involving scent.
2 As for unfavorable conditions, but more extreme. For example, candlelight for DCs involving sight, a roaring dragon for DCs involving hearing, and an overpowering stench covering the area for DCs involving scent.
Check: Perception has a number of uses, the most common of which is an opposed check versus an opponent's Stealth check to notice the opponent and avoid being surprised. If you are successful, you notice the opponent and can react accordingly. If you fail, your opponent can take a variety of actions, including sneaking past you and attacking you.
Perception is also used to notice fine details in the environment. The DC to notice such details varies depending upon distance, the environment, and how noticeable the detail is. The following table gives a number of guidelines.
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
Try Again: Yes. You can try to sense something you missed the first time, so long as the stimulus is still present.
Special: Elves, half-elves, gnomes, and halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks. Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent. Creatures with the tremorsense special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks against creatures touching the ground and automatically make any such checks within their range.
A spellcaster with a hawk or owl familiar gains a +3 bonus on Perception checks. If you have the Alertness feat, you get a +2 bonus on Perception (and Sense Motive) checks.
I think that covers all the bases for the discussion. For the record my table rules that once combat has begun a rogue can snipe, flank, have invis, and others on a case by case basis.
The big reason for us on not allowing stealth melee in combat comes down to it's almost impossible for a rogue to approach an enemy in combat while maintaining cover or concealment. Once in a blue moon someone can manage to do this and that's when the case by case rulings come out.
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Generally speaking, at my table rogues take some efforts to flank in order to make sneak attacks.
While there are ways to get the necessary prerequisite stealth while in combat, it is generally a lot more difficult and time consuming than getting the other front-liners to work with you for flanking.
When combat initiates, the rogues will make ranged attacks at people who have not yet acted for the sneak attack, and then move in and set up flanking.
If combat is already going on when you enter the picture, and you have somehow managed to acquire stealth, then i would still suggest making a single ranged sneak attack and moving into a flanking position.
The element that reduces rogue's damage the most is their low attack bonus. Flanking goes a long way to help them get those hits that would otherwise miss and deal no damage.
Side note: There is a feat in the APG that allows precision damage (such as sneak attacks) to be made against targets with concealment.
You know, every time I read a stealth thread, the same thing is going through my mind.
All these people arguing "according to RAW you can't attack from stealth during combat", "RAW, sleeping people only need to make a DC 0 Perception check to notice a rogue if the rogue is standing in the open", etc.
Completely ignoring for the moment the question of if those arguments are correct...
The thing I keep finding myself wondering is "Does anyone actually play the game that way?"
You know, every time I read a stealth thread, the same thing is going through my mind.
All these people arguing "according to RAW you can't attack from stealth during combat", "RAW, sleeping people only need to make a DC 0 Perception check to notice a rogue if the rogue is standing in the open", etc.
Completely ignoring for the moment the question of if those arguments are correct...
The thing I keep finding myself wondering is "Does anyone actually play the game that way?"
well atleast at our table, sneaking into melee combat is considered impossible, unless you have something to hide behind (granting either cover or concealment all the way till melee contact), as they have made the abstraction of no facing in DnD. Using stealth while in combat on the other hand, like running out of sight and then stealth, is used quite often though. Like if the party cant close on a spellcaster couse of obstacles, the rogue will get sneak attacks in this way (if he succedes te stealth roll ofc).
well atleast at our table, sneaking into melee combat is considered impossible, unless you have something to hide behind (granting either cover or concealment all the way till melee contact), as they have made the abstraction of no facing in DnD. Using stealth while in combat on the other hand, like running out of sight and then stealth, is used quite often though. Like if the party cant close on a spellcaster couse of obstacles, the rogue will get sneak attacks in this way (if he succedes te stealth roll ofc).
How about when a rogue has blur cast on him? (friendly wizard, wand etc.)