Sorry but what do you mean?
"this is a problem with the rogue"? What are you refering to?
I love Pathfinder have removed the need of a trapfinding rogue. You can play a ranger, or a monk, or a rogue archetypes without trapfinding, or a druid. anything with high perception. Detect magic at will helps.
The 3.x motto "every party must have a xxx" sucked.
What I mean is that if giving up a main feature of a class (trapfinding in this case) doesn't hurt the class in any way then it probably isn't the ninja that has a problem but the rogue needing better class features
Overpowered classes are bad, nerfing other classes to mach the weakest ones are even worse
O_O i agree
As a side note, people talks about Ki as it would be infinite. Is not.
A) Not all Ninja tricks are based on Ki.
B) A 10 level Ninja with char 12 + a headband of char +4 can cast Improved invisibility 9 times per day as a swift action. That's not infinite but but more than enough.Extra Ki
You can use your ki pool more times per day than most.
Prerequisite: Ki pool class feature.
Benefit: Your ki pool increases by 2.
Special: You can gain Extra Ki multiple times. Its
effects stack.
Lastly: How many times / day does a 10 level rogue use Evasion? not 9 times per day and as I've said before: evasion is overrated.
Sorry but what do you mean?
"this is a problem with the rogue"? What are you refering to?
I love Pathfinder have removed the need of a trapfinding rogue. You can play a ranger, or a monk, or a rogue archetypes without trapfinding, or a druid. anything with high perception. Detect magic at will helps.
The 3.x motto "every party must have a xxx" sucked.
What I mean is that if giving up a main feature of a class (trapfinding in this case) doesn't hurt the class in any way then it probably isn't the ninja that has a problem but the rogue needing better class features
Overpowered classes are bad, nerfing other classes to mach the weakest ones are even worse
OK. Good point.
I still think the ninja needs some nerfs. Improved invisibility 9 times per day as a swift action is too good.Even invisibility as a swift action is too good.
A) Not all Ninja tricks are based on Ki.
B) A 10 level Ninja with char 12 + a headband of char +4 can cast Improved invisibility 9 times per day as a swift action. That's not infinite but but more than enough.
Invisibility is overrated, too, IMHO, expecially at the high end of the game :)
And Improved Invis 9/day means you are a one-trick pony. Try to use other ninja tricks, to pimp full attacks and stuff, and you'll see ki points go away quickly.
A) Not all Ninja tricks are based on Ki.
B) A 10 level Ninja with char 12 + a headband of char +4 can cast Improved invisibility 9 times per day as a swift action. That's not infinite but but more than enough.
Invisibility is overrated, too, IMHO, expecially at the high end of the game :)
And Improved Invis 9/day means you are a one-trick pony. Try to use other ninja tricks, to pimp full attacks and stuff, and you'll see ki points go away quickly.
16 Cha +4 eadband of intellect ninja level 8
took expanded ki pool.
11 points of ki at level 8 and thats if he takes ki pool boost once and he hasnt spent both his points to up his charisma to 18 by level 8.
yeah.
Not to mention I would dip into that monk class that steals ki. Then we have a problem because the level for ki stacks and you get to steal it back for your talents. Just take the feats that grant bonus talents so you can grab them while your being all monk like. Not to mention the flurry and such.
I just dont think they are really analyzing how this is going to be abused.
You just made my point.
You used a resource wich is high-value for a melee PC.. just to be sure of have a non restricted use of your class features.
You just made my point.
You used a resource wich is high-value for a melee PC.. just to be sure of have a non restricted use of your class features.
You mean like any other class? Not to mention the fact that when they are burned out, they are still basically a rogue without evasion or trapfinding.
3 ki points an encounter at level 8 and 3 encounters for the day with 3 left over for outside? sounds fine to me.
not to mention lets not forget that ninja's might get a race that adds 1/4 a ki point or something to their ki pool.
You just made my point.
You used a resource wich is high-value for a melee PC.. just to be sure of have a non restricted use of your class features.
You mean like any other class? Not to mention the fact that when they are burned out, they are still basically a rogue without evasion or trapfinding.
3 ki points an encounter at level 8 and 3 encounters for the day with 3 left over for outside? sounds fine to me.
not to mention lets not forget that ninja's might get a race that adds 1/4 a ki point or something to their ki pool.
I Just read JB post about the whole issue. I think I will wait the next round of the playtest or the final product.
I Just read JB post about the whole issue. I think I will wait the next rpound of the playtest or the final product.You just made my point.
You used a resource wich is high-value for a melee PC.. just to be sure of have a non restricted use of your class features.
You mean like any other class? Not to mention the fact that when they are burned out, they are still basically a rogue without evasion or trapfinding.
3 ki points an encounter at level 8 and 3 encounters for the day with 3 left over for outside? sounds fine to me.
not to mention lets not forget that ninja's might get a race that adds 1/4 a ki point or something to their ki pool.
What did he say? can I have a link please :)
If the one who laughs last laughs loudest, but the best Rogue/Ninja is no doubt the most silent, then who is the better of the two?
A) Not all Ninja tricks are based on Ki.
B) A 10 level Ninja with char 12 + a headband of char +4 can cast Improved invisibility 9 times per day as a swift action. That's not infinite but but more than enough.
Invisibility is overrated, too, IMHO, expecially at the high end of the game :)
And Improved Invis 9/day means you are a one-trick pony. Try to use other ninja tricks, to pimp full attacks and stuff, and you'll see ki points go away quickly.
16 Cha +4 eadband of intellect ninja level 8
took expanded ki pool.
11 points of ki at level 8 and thats if he takes ki pool boost once and he hasnt spent both his points to up his charisma to 18 by level 8.
yeah.
Not to mention I would dip into that monk class that steals ki. Then we have a problem because the level for ki stacks and you get to steal it back for your talents. Just take the feats that grant bonus talents so you can grab them while your being all monk like. Not to mention the flurry and such.
I just dont think they are really analyzing how this is going to be abused.
That is an interesting mix of classes, but I am not sure that its that powerful since multiclassing with monk is very rough, usually. However there is some nice synergy there.
Still you need 5, count them, levels monk to get that to work. So level 7 before you can steal Ki to fuel your 1 ninja talent (perhaps forgotten trick, since its pretty Ki hungry, badum bum ching!) And getting those Ki require crits or kills.
On the bright side, dropping opponents to get back Ki is somewhat easier with a sneak attacking ninja. You are more likely to have a big damage moment with TWF and sneak attack flanking. You could throw a somewhat crazy amount of shuriken with rapidshot, Flurry/TWF, and flurry of stars. Add Pressure Points onto that and you could do some serious ability damage with slightly less sneak attack damage.
On the not so good side you lose half of your sneak attack to monk levels by level 10. You would not be able to use Assassinate effectively because, you would need Wisdom as your Ki pool attribute for your monk AC. Invisible blades might make more sense, but that would also not be available till level 15.
So a bit of a late bloomer but certainly interesting.
What did he say? can I have a link please :)
Just as a quick note, this is not a place where we are going to talk about changing the rogue. The design team feels pretty strongly that the rogue works just fine as it currently stands. The ninja on the other hand, is probably a bit more powerful and we are looking into ways of correcting that.
One other note, I think many folks are seriously under estimating the value of evasion. That reduction in damaging effects adds a great deal to the rogue's survivability against a number of foes and scenarios. Is it the same value as the ki mechanic as it currently stands... that is something we are still looking into.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Ipse Dixit.
From here.
damn that quote right there means we are getting a watered down class just to make the rogue look useful..ish
damn that quote right there means we are getting a watered down class just to make the rogue look useful..ish
All it means is that talents better get a huge boost.
talents can be made, I think he meant that trapfinding and such are staying and there is no "luck pool" going in for the rogue or anything.
All it means is that talents better get a huge boost.
talents can be made, I think he meant that trapfinding and such are staying and there is no "luck pool" going in for the rogue or anything.
We can hope but it sure sounds like talents aren't being boosted in any way
We can hope but it sure sounds like talents aren't being boosted in any way
All it means is that talents better get a huge boost.
talents can be made, I think he meant that trapfinding and such are staying and there is no "luck pool" going in for the rogue or anything.
I would hope so otherwise the ninja's tricks are totally unfair, as the rogue has nothing even close to that level of power right now.
My bet is talents will be very good for ultimate combat.
I would hope so otherwise the ninja's tricks are totally unfair, as the rogue has nothing even close to that level of power right now.My bet is talents will be very good for ultimate combat.
I would hope so otherwise the ninja's tricks are totally unfair, as the rogue has nothing even close to that level of power right now.
My bet is talents will be very good for ultimate combat.
from what the devs make it sound like the talents wont help much (they aren't making the rogue stronger) and (heres the great news for you) the ninja will be losing most if not all his tricks to be replaced with things noticeably weaker then rogue talents (while still not getting access to half the rogue talents it already cant get) and have light step and poison use (unless they realize light steps is actually useful and remove it because it makes the ninja to strong to be a rogue alt. class).
I could very well be wrong but it does say "The ninja on the other hand, is probably a bit more powerful" (compared to the rogue) and that they will be "fixing" that.
sounds like a watered down rogue to me, no thanks, my aristocrat can be that good too
I'll be happy if there's a feat similar to Amateur Gunslinger for Ninja stuff.
I usually play a Rogue with a Zen-flavor so it'd be right up my alley.
I was hoping the ninja would be the rogue with zen flavor