Just a quick question - is the 2+ int modifier (or whatever base number is) the minimum the character gets, or does he gets 1 skill point per level if his int is, say 8?
minimum of 1 thats right
Note that favored class and race related bonus skill points are applied after the 2+Int Mod portion is done. So a human fighter with favored class fighter and an INT of 5 will still get three skill points.
While this has been commented on before at times as a gray area, a character should not loose race or class bonuses. Humans of any type that are in other ways equal to another race ability and class wise will still get one more skill point... just like an equal dwarf gets darkvision or an elf gets a bonus to spellcraft. The favored class bonus skill point follows the same rules and logic.
Note that favored class and race related bonus skill points are applied after the 2+Int Mod portion is done. So a human fighter with favored class fighter and an INT of 5 will still get three skill points.
While this has been commented on before at times as a gray area, a character should not loose race or class bonuses. Humans of any type that are in other ways equal to another race ability and class wise will still get one more skill point... just like an equal dwarf gets darkvision or an elf gets a bonus to spellcraft. The favored class bonus skill point follows the same rules and logic.
+1
This is how it works. didint know there were people who thought it was a grey area...
off topic, but Toadkiller Dog is one of the best characters in Cook's novels. I salute you, sir!
Bomanz wasn't bad either. Love the part when he starts melting bones in people. :D
Note that favored class and race related bonus skill points are applied after the 2+Int Mod portion is done. So a human fighter with favored class fighter and an INT of 5 will still get three skill points.
Good to know. My issue was whether 2 + Int modifier is eglible to be reduced below the base 2, because a friend wants to play a Cleric with Int 8. Too bad, he just gets 2 skill points per lvl.
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Say you have a cleric with 8 int, who is picking hitpoints for his favored class bonus, and is not a human.
He gets 2 + int, which is 2 + -1, which gives him 1 skillpoint. The minimum value is 1 skillpoint, not whatever the class skill is.
However, I don't necessarily agree about the minimum of +3 skill points for the stupid human fighter.
The section on int says:
You apply your character's Intelligence modifier to the number of skill points gained at each level, though your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.
I don't see anything there that implies you apply the minimum value before totaling all the skill points you gain. In fact, the entry strongly implies the total value of skill points must equal at least 1, and not just the combination of class + int.
Also, I didn't see anything in the official errata about it either :/ Could have missed it though.
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On a related point, what is the difference between a fighter with a INT of 8 or 7? At 8, the modifier is a -1 resulting in 1 skill point per level. At 7, the mod is -2, but the minimum rule kicks in and still grants 1. Other than effects that drains INT (rare occurrence), is there really a difference between the two? I ask because I see a lot of players drop to the 7 to get an extra +2 using the point buy option for starting ability scores.
the difference is he would get -2 on all int based rolls.
I will never understand why PFRPG didn't up the base skill points for the core classes who only get two. I think 4 for them would have worked out just as well.
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For a 2-point per level character, if you dump to 7 you can go ahead and dump to 8, there is no game effect. Straight-damage bruisers are best dumping Int/Cha to 7, because they have little game effect (especially for humans willing to be down 1 hp/lvl).
The only saving grace for int and fighters is Combat Expertise is a prereq for a lot of fighter feats for tricky fighters.
On a related point, what is the difference between a fighter with a INT of 8 or 7? At 8, the modifier is a -1 resulting in 1 skill point per level. At 7, the mod is -2, but the minimum rule kicks in and still grants 1. Other than effects that drains INT (rare occurrence), is there really a difference between the two? I ask because I see a lot of players drop to the 7 to get an extra +2 using the point buy option for starting ability scores.
The main point is that this is a role playing game. Mechanically you will have a lower INT based skill check, and you will fail random DM determined ability checks more often. But the real kicker is in the RP.
If your group does not RP and just goes around fighting monsters then there is very little difference between a 3 INT and an 8 INT.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I will never understand why PFRPG didn't up the base skill points for the core classes who only get two. I think 4 for them would have worked out just as well.
A lot of people agree with you. I'm not one of them :-)
With the notable excpetion of the Wizard, it does increase the level of MAD for the casters. If the cleric wants to function, putting that 8 in intelligence isn't going to help (Is it Spellcraft or knowlege religion this level) Same thing for the sorcerer. (Someone posted a build saying the sorcerer didn't need spellcraft, said sorcerer could be bluffed that the dancing light over his head was a fireball).
With the favored class bonus it does two things. Encourages the character to stay in one class (Well, unless you're a half elf) and does give the cleric/fighter/sorcerer that bump.
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Jason (designer) has clarified it on a previous thread. It's not a point for debate, the dumb human fighter can have 3 skill points.
I remember that thread :)
But I still haven't seen official errata for it. I should note that a dev's post on the forums, until it appears in errata, constitutes an opinion and not the word of law. It gets hairy when the dev is talking about a clarification of mushy wording for existing rules, but even that needs to be documented in an official manner.
After all, we have all seen devs change their opinions on a subject. This is why we have errata to formalize the process.
Errata for the section I quoted above would be something like:
You apply your character's Intelligence modifier to the number of skill points gained at each level, though your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level. Add your int modifier to your class skills per level with a minimum of one skill point, before applying racial and favored class skill points to the total.
Now, I'm sure there's a shorter way to add that in :p
the difference is he would get -2 on all int based rolls.Most INT-based skills are trained only, so his modifier is moot unless he takes a rank. With only one per level, that is unlikely.
Personaly I apply the fact that if you have a character with an int. penalty, you can't "take 10" to cover the "very easy questions" (DC10) from Knowledges.
So you can't assume your character knows that it's an Orc or an Hobgoblin, how mutch to pay for a sword, if deity is good or bad, that's a Zombie not a sick person, etc.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Personaly I apply the fact that if you have a character with an int. penalty, you can't "take 10" to cover the "very easy questions" (DC10) from Knowledges.I see nothing in the rules to support that, so it's a house-rule. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not supported by RAW.
huh?
If you 'take 10' with a -2 penalty from int, you get an 8.
8 < 10, so you fail the check. What's a house rule about that?
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stuff
only when applied to untrained skills. Yes, if effect, taking 10 with a penalty on untrained knowledge checks assures failure, but making a blanket statement that you disallow taking 10 if the PC has a negative modifier is, in fact, a house rule. What if the PC has spent two ranks on it and has a net +0 modifer? My dex 8 fighter can still attempt a tumble check to avoid an AoO. Granted he will nearly always fail, but debuffs and environmental issues could reduce the target DC.
If that is not what you meant, I misunderstood and apologize.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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stuffonly when applied to untrained skills. Yes, if effect, taking 10 with a penalty on untrained knowledge checks assures failure, but making a blanket statement that you disallow taking 10 if the PC has a negative modifier is, in fact, a house rule. What if the PC has spent two ranks on it and has a net +0 modifer? My dex 8 fighter can still attempt a tumble check to avoid an AoO. Granted he will nearly always fail, but debuffs and environmental issues could reduce the target DC.
If that is not what you meant, I misunderstood and apologize.
Maybe we are reading the original post differently.
I assumed that slime's post was for conversations like this:
Player (playing an Int 7 cleric): Is he a higher rank than I?
GM: That's common knowlege, make a knowlege (religion) check.
Player: "I don't have ranks, but can take 10 to get the very easy questions"
GM: "Nope, you have a 7 intelligence, that's 8. So no, you don't know if he's higher ranking."
Am I to assume you read it like this?
Player: No problem, that's a DC 10, I've 3 ranks, and an Int of 7, I'll take 10.
GM: You can't take 10 with the intellgence that low. Roll for it.
If you did, then I see where you were reading slime's post as a house rule.
(...)
I assumed that slime's post was for conversations like this:Player (playing an Int 7 cleric): Is he a higher rank than I?
GM: That's common knowlege, make a knowlege (religion) check.
Player: "I don't have ranks, but can take 10 to get the very easy questions"
GM: "Nope, you have a 7 intelligence, that's 8. So no, you don't know if he's higher ranking." (...)
Yhep, that's where I'm going. Basically the low int. PC (or NPC for that matter) can't JUST take 10 to cover some basic "features" automatically. He's slow, has bad concentration or slippery memory, whatever way it's part of the character but he might miss some stuff, it's O.K. but it's something I find worth mentioning.