Yes, that is what we need!
We need a good Space Opera RPG (and supporting adventure material).
Based on Pathfinder rules? I would say that StarWars d20 or True20 do the job.
But he wants something that is actively supported ... as do I ... for Pathfinder rules. The only ones emerged thus far is Dredan: Metal & Myth and Infinite Futures. Alas, both products still leaves one "wanting..."
I'd like Space Oriented Game as well! I'm toying with the idea of developing my own game off the D20 rules for home use. I've done it before using Phoenix Command's Living Steel game and Travelers system using the Fire Fusion and Steel book and bit of Shadow run for cyborg stuff. Turned out quite good but overly complex.
I saw Traveler had D20 system years ago but not sure if it's even available anymore.
voska66 wrote: I saw Traveler had D20 system years ago but not sure if it's even available anymore. It's out of print. I was immensely shocked when I saw it in a FLGS and was discounted last year. Needless to say, I snatched it so I could use it later to lift mechanics from it.
I'd also like to see a decent Space Opera game using the Pathfinder rules. In my spare time, I've been playing with a few ideas for one ...
I see, well, after playing d20 modern, StarWarsd20, etc. the last thing I would do is playing a Space Opera using modified Pathfinder/3rdEd/3.5 rules, horrible for anything that involves modern weapons and tactics IMO, but those are just my tastes.
Edit: Not including heavy modifications like M&M, which doesn't seem to be the intent
Pathfinder really needs a sci-fi rules sub-set.
Right now, we're very focussed on strengthening what we do best—and that's fantasy gaming. So—not in the cards for us anytime soon.
But that's part of why we offer the Pathfinder RPG Compatibility License...
Lord Fyre wrote: Yes, that is what we need!
We need a good Space Opera RPG (and supporting adventure material).
I think PAIZO would do a great job engineering an Sci-Fi RPG. I don't think the D20 rules are the system to go with. They are just molded more respectably towards melee combat.
There are some good d20 space rpgs, but nothing that has ever caught my fancy. I think Star Wars is well done, but not original. I'd love to see something truly original.
I know they say it's not in the works, but it's something they should consider. I know I'd be looking at buying it. I trust Paizo and doubt they'd let us down.
Just my thoughts,
Ken
Lord Fyre wrote: Yes, that is what we need!
We need a good Space Opera RPG (and supporting adventure material).
I have a good name, I just thought up.
How about Starfinder?
I tell you what I don't want, I don't want Modern Fantasy, I don't want anything like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or modern horror, such as zombies in the streets of New York city, no blood sucking vampires. I think we need to distinguish between Modern Fantasy/Horror/Ghostbusters/Vampires and classic space opera science fiction.
Generally Classic Space Opera Science Fiction occurs in the future, typically there are small affordable space ships with faster than light drives, multiple planets settled, multiple alien species besides humans, and some other things like intelligent robots and a few other science fiction devices, but mostly its about star travel, space ships, exploration, trading, military conflict, basically its like the "High seas in space, people seeking their fortune, trying to get rich, pretty much the same idea as in Pathfinder, except it occurs in a space opera backdrop rather than in a fantasy universe.
Kenneth Cole wrote: Lord Fyre wrote: Yes, that is what we need!
We need a good Space Opera RPG (and supporting adventure material).
I think PAIZO would do a great job engineering an Sci-Fi RPG. I don't think the D20 rules are the system to go with. They are just molded more respectably towards melee combat.
There are some good d20 space rpgs, but nothing that has ever caught my fancy. I think Star Wars is well done, but not original. I'd love to see something truly original.
I know they say it's not in the works, but it's something they should consider. I know I'd be looking at buying it. I trust Paizo and doubt they'd let us down.
Just my thoughts,
Ken I think with a role playing game, people are looking for the familiar, not the original. The thing about Pathfinder that attracts me is that its very familiar looking, they don't do much thats original at all, and to me thats a good thing, because then I don't have to learn new stuff, a few tweeks here and there, but that's it. The problem with the new 4th edition is that its too original, too much creativity went into creating a new Role Playing game, and people who have learned the ins and outs of the old system like me, are completely lost, there is no familiarity with much of the new concepts they are throwing at me at once, and thus when I try to gamemaster in 4th edition, the game slows down to a craw as every thing is completely new, unfamiliar character classes, rules and so forth.
I'd like to write the core rules for Starfinder if someone doesn't get to it before me, my problem is that such a product doesn't exist at the moment. The product that comes closest to it is Traveller, my main problem with Traveller is that it doesn't have a consistent rules set, it is basically a setting with multiple RPG systems, but one feature of the system that I don't like is that combat is deadly, and the ability to heal wounds is pathetic, maybe that's realistic, but I don't necessarily want a game that's realistic and results in instant death of your characters. The T20 game is based loosely on the 3rd Edition D&D game, I believe its out of print.
The problem with Traveller is that the beginner spaceships are too expensive, you literally have to have characters that are multi-millionaires to afford them, have generous credit ratings so the bank will extend a multi-million credit load, or have the Gm simply drop a spaceship into the beginning character's lap by fiat and attach some conditions to its use. I think a good beginning spaceship should cost no more than one million credits/dollars or whatever currency units you prefer, the currency unit should be comparible in value to the dollar though. You want to start out with characters that aren't automatically rich playboys with nothing to do, or have a rich uncle that dies and wills them a spaceship. There must be a pathway to advancement just like in Pathfinder.
Sketchpad wrote: I'd also like to see a decent Space Opera game using the Pathfinder rules. In my spare time, I've been playing with a few ideas for one ... I think Starfinder would be fairly descriptive for what it is, the second part of the name tells you its related to Pathfinder and compatible with it, the Star part tells you it is a Space Opera, not a technothriller, not horror, not a near future setting with a lot of jacked in cybertech. I'm not interested in big cities of the mid to late 21th century with a Megacorp breathing down your neck, with Cyberwarriors on the run from corporate police officers, I'm not interested in social commentary on our present society, or some future project on where the author thinks its heading, I want something thats fun, and adventerous with as many opportunities for adventure as Pathfinder, but in a science fiction setting. Some of the old RPGs had that adventurous feel, some of the newer ones simply got lost in their own creativity. Star Trek has the right feel, Star Wars too, but I think I like smaller space ships that are in more to scale with individual PCs, rather that Star Destroyers, though fighters and the Millenium Falcon are good. I also think the science should have a more realistic feel that Star Wars, the spaceships should obey the laws of physics on the tactical level, that is they accelerate and decelerate, with rockets pointing in the direction of their current acceleration. The Star Wars RPG attempts to duplicate the behavior of Star Wars ships on the Movie screen, I like Travellers realism, but not to the point where combat is not fun, where you get too many instant kill results for instance, and have the Game Designers excuse it away by saying they are trying to deemphasize combat. Pathfinder rules deal mostly with combat, it is the core mechanic, the rest is role playing, and interaction and you don't need a combat resolution system for that.
See, I think there's some merit in doing something more generic, but, on the flip side, I'd like to follow a Pathfinder model and have a barebones setting in the main book as well ... I have a pretty solid plan, but we'll see how far I get :) So far, I have a name for the system, a logo, and a rough outline ;)
Tom_Kalbfus wrote: Sketchpad wrote: I'd also like to see a decent Space Opera game using the Pathfinder rules. In my spare time, I've been playing with a few ideas for one ... I think Starfinder would be fairly descriptive for what it is, the second part of the name tells you its related to Pathfinder and compatible with it, the Star part tells you it is a Space Opera, not a technothriller, not horror, not a near future setting with a lot of jacked in cybertech. I'm not interested in big cities of the mid to late 21th century with a Megacorp breathing down your neck, with Cyberwarriors on the run from corporate police officers, I'm not interested in social commentary on our present society, or some future project on where the author thinks its heading, I want something thats fun, and adventerous with as many opportunities for adventure as Pathfinder, but in a science fiction setting. Some of the old RPGs had that adventurous feel, some of the newer ones simply got lost in their own creativity. Star Trek has the right feel, Star Wars too, but I think I like smaller space ships that are in more to scale with individual PCs, rather that Star Destroyers, though fighters and the Millenium Falcon are good. I also think the science should have a more realistic feel that Star Wars, the spaceships should obey the laws of physics on the tactical level, that is they accelerate and decelerate, with rockets pointing in the direction of their current acceleration. The Star Wars RPG attempts to duplicate the behavior of Star Wars ships on the Movie screen, I like Travellers realism, but not to the point where combat is not fun, where you get too many instant kill results for instance, and have the Game Designers excuse it away by saying they are trying to deemphasize combat. Pathfinder rules deal mostly with combat, it is the core mechanic, the rest is role playing, and interaction and you don't need a combat resolution system for that.
Vic Wertz wrote: Right now, we're very focussed on strengthening what we do best—and that's fantasy gaming. So—not in the cards for us anytime soon. THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU...!
Vic Wertz wrote: But that's part of why we offer the Pathfinder RPG Compatibility License... So, anyone 3PP interested? *Listens*
power distribution goes a bit wonky in a space game
a 1st level character witha +5 sword in PFRPG is no threat to a level 10 character
a 1st level character with a plasma repeater rifle in 'SFRPG' is quite a threat to a level 10 character
ok thats quite extreme example
we played a lot of a home written d20 scifi game, based on 3.0, from about 1st to 11th level...i would love for someone to write a SFRPG, so i dont have too!!
please no orcs or elves in space....
Tom_Kalbfus wrote: The product that comes closest to it is Traveller, my main problem with Traveller is that it doesn't have a consistent rules set, it is basically a setting with multiple RPG systems, but one feature of the system that I don't like is that combat is deadly, and the ability to heal wounds is pathetic, maybe that's realistic, but I don't necessarily want a game that's... Traveller has always been a "hard" sci-fi game, that's why it isn't very good for space operas, altough it is one of the most detailed sci-fi games out there.
Honestly, the best Space Opera system I've played was West End Games' Star Wars d6. It gives you the heroic, loose fantasy feel, without just being "D&D in space".
I wouldn't mind working on something sci-fi for our 3PP, but as our name indicates, we are and will be primarily a FANTASY GAMING company.
Sean
4WFG
IkeDoe wrote: Tom_Kalbfus wrote: The product that comes closest to it is Traveller, my main problem with Traveller is that it doesn't have a consistent rules set, it is basically a setting with multiple RPG systems, but one feature of the system that I don't like is that combat is deadly, and the ability to heal wounds is pathetic, maybe that's realistic, but I don't necessarily want a game that's... Traveller has always been a "hard" sci-fi game, that's why it isn't very good for space operas, altough it is one of the most detailed sci-fi games out there. What do you mean 'hard'? A hard science fiction game wouldn't have an FTL drive at all, aliens would be rare, and those encountered would either be primitives on their own planet, or if space faring so advanced as to be incomprehensible, almost like gods. An example of such would be the aliens of [u]2001 A Space Odyssey[/u] On the other end of the extreme is Star Wars, there the science is so soft, it is mush, you have swiss cheese planets that are filled with water, giant space slugs, and TIE fighters that "scream" as they bank and roll in space, I don't see why that is necessary for a good intellectual Space Opera Setting, there are a few elements that I think are necessary though.
1) Cheap starships, they are starships that individuals can buy, to run a small interstellar trade business, to give the PCs a bit of independence and not have to follow company directives, I think a price for a typical PC spaceship of $100,000 to $500,000 would be reasonable, I could see a bank extending a starship load for around $500,000 to the "average joe" but not $50,000,000 which is about the price of a small Scout/Courier in Traveller. I don't like to begin a RPG Campaign with, "You've just won the lottery!" or "Your very rich uncle has just bequithed you a starship," or "You just retired from the Scout service, and they let you keep the $50,000,000 Scout/Courier as a retirement gift" To be trusted with such an expensive piece of equipment by some megacorp, indicates an employee of extremely high value. I'd rather not have PCs begin at the top at say 9th level, to start at 9th level due to a prior career seems to take the fun out of it, and remove the sense of accomplishment, I'd rather start at 1st level just like in Pathfinder, and have the characters work their way to the top during play, rather than, "after rolling up your prior career, you retire with such in such a cash bonus, a scout ship, and a gun."
2) We need a galaxy full of aliens, realistically, this would occur sometime in the distant future, perhaps several millenia in the future, to have them all of roughly equal technological accomplishment so they can fight wars and have some doubt as to the outcome indicates a common origin for all "Alien life" perhaps they are descended from Earth life that has been genetically modified, they would thus breath the same air, eat the same food, and be able to communicate with humans and interact with them just as in a classic space opera, they are not true aliens however, those would likely breathe a different mixture of air from humans, much like the aliens of Avatar, though those are a bit too human looking to be the result of sheer coincidence.
Lyingbastard wrote: Honestly, the best Space Opera system I've played was West End Games' Star Wars d6. It gives you the heroic, loose fantasy feel, without just being "D&D in space".
I wouldn't mind working on something sci-fi for our 3PP, but as our name indicates, we are and will be primarily a FANTASY GAMING company.
Sean
4WFG
I don't want D&D in space either, that is an RPG called Dragonstar, My idea of Starfinder is an RPG that parallels the structure of Pathfinder, but doesn't include fantasy elements such as elves, dragons, and magic in space, instead it substitutes reasonably plausible technology for magic. That is starships don't bank and roll and "scream" in space as they pass by, instead they accelerate, coast, and decelerate, as anyone who's been an average student in a high school physics class would tell you, that is how spaceships ought to behave in space, their is no "air" in space to push against, the laws of enertia are enforced. An FTL drive is indispensible though, in order to have a galactic mileu so we have to include that.
thenovalord wrote: power distribution goes a bit wonky in a space game
a 1st level character witha +5 sword in PFRPG is no threat to a level 10 character
a 1st level character with a plasma repeater rifle in 'SFRPG' is quite a threat to a level 10 character
ok thats quite extreme example
we played a lot of a home written d20 scifi game, based on 3.0, from about 1st to 11th level...i would love for someone to write a SFRPG, so i dont have too!!
please no orcs or elves in space....
One way to prevent that is to have cheap starships, so PCs can go planet hopping without being multi-millionares, and so therefore can afford that spaceship, but that plasma rifle is a little beyond their reach. Also plasma rifles should not work in an atmosphere, they can only work in the hard vacuum of space, the main reason is that plasma won't stay a plasma if it come in contact with cold air, and once it ceases to be a plasma, it can no longer be confined by magnetic fields and can't be directed, what is most likely to occur is a small explosion at the end of the plasma rifle's muzzel if fired in an atmosphere. In space, the characters need to be wearing space suits if they are to fire a plasma rifle, plasma weapons work better as starship weapons than as personal weapons.
Tom_Kalbfus wrote: IkeDoe wrote: Tom_Kalbfus wrote: The product that comes closest to it is Traveller, my main problem with Traveller is that it doesn't have a consistent rules set, it is basically a setting with multiple RPG systems, but one feature of the system that I don't like is that combat is deadly, and the ability to heal wounds is pathetic, maybe that's realistic, but I don't necessarily want a game that's... Traveller has always been a "hard" sci-fi game, that's why it isn't very good for space operas, altough it is one of the most detailed sci-fi games out there. What do you mean 'hard'? A hard science fiction game wouldn't have an FTL drive at all, aliens would be rare, and those encountered would either be primitives on their own planet, or if space faring so advanced as to be incomprehensible, almost like gods. An example of such would be the aliens of [u]2001 A Space Odyssey[/u] On the other end of the extreme is Star Wars, there the science is so soft, it is mush, you have swiss cheese planets that are filled with water, giant space slugs, and TIE fighters that "scream" as they bank and roll in space, I don't see why that is necessary for a good intellectual Space Opera Setting, there are a few elements that I think are necessary though.
Beyond semantics or whether hard sci-fi has something to do with FTL drives or not (which isn't even mandatory for your campaing), you are gonna have a hard time finding a game less meant to be a Space Opera than Traveller.
As you point out in Traveller starships (and space travel) are far from cheap or comfortable and if you get shot (usually by a XXI century firearm, because laser weapons in Traveller are expensive and plasma stuff rare) there is no magic portable medikit that cures your wounds, among many other things.
IkeDoe wrote: Tom_Kalbfus wrote: IkeDoe wrote: Tom_Kalbfus wrote: The product that comes closest to it is Traveller, my main problem with Traveller is that it doesn't have a consistent rules set, it is basically a setting with multiple RPG systems, but one feature of the system that I don't like is that combat is deadly, and the ability to heal wounds is pathetic, maybe that's realistic, but I don't necessarily want a game that's... Traveller has always been a "hard" sci-fi game, that's why it isn't very good for space operas, altough it is one of the most detailed sci-fi games out there. What do you mean 'hard'? A hard science fiction game wouldn't have an FTL drive at all, aliens would be rare, and those encountered would either be primitives on their own planet, or if space faring so advanced as to be incomprehensible, almost like gods. An example of such would be the aliens of [u]2001 A Space Odyssey[/u] On the other end of the extreme is Star Wars, there the science is so soft, it is mush, you have swiss cheese planets that are filled with water, giant space slugs, and TIE fighters that "scream" as they bank and roll in space, I don't see why that is necessary for a good intellectual Space Opera Setting, there are a few elements that I think are necessary though.
Beyond semantics or whether hard sci-fi has something to do with FTL drives or not (which isn't even mandatory for your campaing), you are gonna have a hard time finding a game less meant to be a Space Opera than Traveller.
As you point out in Traveller starships (and space travel) are far from cheap or comfortable and if you get shot (usually by a XXI century firearm, because laser weapons in Traveller are expensive and plasma stuff rare) there is no magic portable medikit that cures your wounds, among many other things. Spaceships are easily fixed by shifting the decimal place a few digits to the left, by a factor of 100 or so, you keep the plasma weapons expensive.
In the Traveller Game, according to my T20 Handbook, a Scout/Courier costs 52,823,000 credits, a tech level 12 man-portable plasma gun - the cheapest one on the equipment list costs 2,500 credits, therefore for the cost of a scout/courier able to haul 4 player characters from planet to planet, you can equip an army of 21,129 soldiers with plasma rifles which do 6d12 points of damage! Do you see something wrong with this picture. As a GM, in order to make the PCs mobile I'm tempted to drop the most basic starship a scout/courier into their laps so they can move from planet to planet, but once they have the scout courier, they are instant millionaires, they could sell the scout/courier and retire on the savings interest, at least any normal person would. Why would they travel around the galaxy in a multi-million credit space ship in search of a few thousand credits income here and a few thousand credits there, and if your the GM who'd just dropped a Scout/Courier in their lap, and they ask why they can't afford to equip each character with plasma rifles for just a few thousand credits extra, I as a GM don't have a good answer for them. Seems to me a bank that's willing to loan them 52 million credits, won't likely balk at 53 million with the extra million to equip each character with plasma guns or even worse fusion guns, is it really realistic to suppose we'll have weapons like that? a plasma gun costs 0.004% above the cost of a basic scout/courier starship, it really stretches the mind that the PCs don't have the credit flexibility to purchase the plasma gun if they can already afford the starship they are travelling around in, and if its stolen, what's to stop them from stealing plasma guns too?
My solution is just to adjust the price downwards a bit. Lets say the Scout/Courier costs, 100,000 credits, that way the plasma gun would cost 2.5% on top of those 100,000 credits, assume its a used starship, discount the price to 50,000 credits, and the GM can more easily tell the players that they can't afford the plasma gun, they've had the starship for a while and there is no bank around willing to give them the loan for 2,500 using the starship as collateral, because they could always run away with the starship and its a big galaxy with no way to track them down if they do.
IkeDoe wrote: ...
Beyond semantics or whether hard sci-fi has something to do with FTL drives or not (which isn't even mandatory for your campaing), you are gonna have a hard time finding a game less meant to be a Space Opera than Traveller.
As you point out in Traveller starships (and space travel) are far from cheap or comfortable and if you get shot (usually by a XXI century firearm, because laser weapons in Traveller are expensive and plasma stuff rare) there is no magic portable medikit that cures your wounds, among many other things.
As for guns, how do energy weapons change anything? Why is it necessary to have man portable plasma guns to have a space opera, what's wrong with bullets? Rayguns have gone out of fashion anyway, judging from movies like Avatar. Bullets can do the job just as well, lasers will burn a hole in you if sufficiently powerful, but its much more efficient just to have a bullet punch a hole in you, and it will kill you just as dead, lasers can be used for other things, a lower powered laser can, for instance ionize a column of air between the gun and the target, there is not enough energy to burn a hole in the target only to ionize the air so that it conducts electricity, then the gun passes through an electric current through the air connecting with the target, if the voltage is high enough, you can electrocute the target, or with a lower voltage, simply stun them, that is an electrolaser, a weaker laser can do that. Lasers work better in space, a bullet if fired a long distance in space can be detected by radar and evaded, as laser cannot be as it travels at the speed of light, and locally at the tactical level, the speed of light is the ultimate speed limit, we make exceptions for FTL drives, but those apply only under special circumstances that don't come into play in space combat scenarios, the laser beam cannot be detected before it strikes, and the first information about the laser beam is the laser beam itself striking the starship. On a tactical level with manportable weapons, bullets are more effective, they are cheaper, less energy intensive, and can't be ducked or evaded at short ranges that are involved in personal ranged combat.
Tom_Kalbfus wrote: Lyingbastard wrote: Honestly, the best Space Opera system I've played was West End Games' Star Wars d6. It gives you the heroic, loose fantasy feel, without just being "D&D in space".
I wouldn't mind working on something sci-fi for our 3PP, but as our name indicates, we are and will be primarily a FANTASY GAMING company.
Sean
4WFG
I don't want D&D in space either, that is an RPG called Dragonstar, My idea of Starfinder is an RPG that parallels the structure of Pathfinder, but doesn't include fantasy elements such as elves, dragons, and magic in space, instead it substitutes reasonably plausible technology for magic. That is starships don't bank and roll and "scream" in space as they pass by, instead they accelerate, coast, and decelerate, as anyone who's been an average student in a high school physics class would tell you, that is how spaceships ought to behave in space, their is no "air" in space to push against, the laws of enertia are enforced. An FTL drive is indispensible though, in order to have a galactic mileu so we have to include that. Aerotech has a great mechanical system for that. Interceptor did too. I agree that this would have to be a core part of the system.
Lord Fyre wrote: Yes, that is what we need!
We need a good Space Opera RPG (and supporting adventure material).
A key to "Starfinder" to me would be to limit the range of known space, and make a great deal of this game about exploring new solar systems.
I would imagine a core of maybe six or seven populated planets and only a small host of playable races. Else you get into such a variety of playable races that you get bogged down in the character creation process, or nothing seems special or unique because everything is weird.
Did anyone else play Star Frontiers?
Kenneth Cole wrote: Lord Fyre wrote: Yes, that is what we need!
We need a good Space Opera RPG (and supporting adventure material).
A key to "Starfinder" to me would be to limit the range of known space, and make a great deal of this game about exploring new solar systems.
I would imagine a core of maybe six or seven populated planets and only a small host of playable races. Else you get into such a variety of playable races that you get bogged down in the character creation process, or nothing seems special or unique because everything is weird.
Did anyone else play Star Frontiers? I played Star Frontiers, I GMed the Voltunus series, where the PCs crash land on the planet Volturnus, and basically had a series of encounters with different factions, in essence it was a series of adventures, building up to a Sathar plot to invade civilized systems using the planet as a jumping off point I believe. Structurally Star Frontiers played much like D&D did, except to a science fiction universe, one main difference was there were no character classes, and percentile dice were used in place of d20s, the hit points for the characters was similarly percentile, that would make each beginning character the equivalent to a 10th level character in D&D approximately, the laser guns were adjustible, you could fine tune the number of hit dice of damage they put out with a correspondingly greater drain on the power packs. One big cop out was the lack of a real FTL drive, instead they had a law of physics that stated that if you exceeded 1% of the speed of light, you slipped into the void, coincidentally, it takes a spaceship accelerating at 1g about 3.5 days to reach 1% of the speed of light and 3.5 days to slow down again, about a week's worth of travel time plus 1 day per light year traveled in the void, I believe its called. To tell you the truth I'd rather have a specific FTL drive that does the same thing, rather than this being a property of all objects that exceed 1% of the speed of light. Maybe make it a requirement for the FTL drive to operate. I always felt that starships should leave a star system before engaging their FTL drive - its just a fictional device to allow interstellar travel and commerce over a reasonable time frame, otherwise it will be years to decades doing the acceleration and deceleration. As for the power plant for the starship, how about a simple "matter converter" it is bascially a "black box" that we don't understand but they do which converts a sizeable percentage of matter into energy, perhaps 50% of matter gets converted into energy while the rest gets wasted due to the drive's inefficiency. Exactly how it converts matter into energy is left up to the imagination, but the process doesn't involve antimatter, it only converts small amounts of matter into energy at any one time, so there is no chance of a catastrophic explosion, and the drive is fairly safe, damaging it simply leaves it inoperable, no titanic explosions at all E=mc^2 produces a lot of energy after all.
Kenneth Cole wrote: Lord Fyre wrote: Yes, that is what we need!
We need a good Space Opera RPG (and supporting adventure material).
A key to "Starfinder" to me would be to limit the range of known space, and make a great deal of this game about exploring new solar systems.
Yep, I like exploration campaigns, and its very difficult to draw large maps in three dimensions anyway. Another thing Traveller lacked was thre dimensional maps, its maps were 2 dimensional hexagonal subsector and sector maps, though the width and breath of the campaign area was huge, it had only 11,000 star systems within the Imperium. In three dimensions it would have been millions.
I think Super Genius had a similar project one time for a modern system, but funding was an issue. It may end up being something several board members have to get together to do. That is how DSP was started. I am guessing that since most of us have jobs that don't allow 8 hours of game developing time that it would a year or more to develop the system.
PS:If it was not Super Genius then I apologize in advance.
Tom_Kalbfus wrote: IkeDoe wrote: ...
Beyond semantics or whether hard sci-fi has something to do with FTL drives or not (which isn't even mandatory for your campaing), you are gonna have a hard time finding a game less meant to be a Space Opera than Traveller.
As you point out in Traveller starships (and space travel) are far from cheap or comfortable and if you get shot (usually by a XXI century firearm, because laser weapons in Traveller are expensive and plasma stuff rare) there is no magic portable medikit that cures your wounds, among many other things.
As for guns, how do energy weapons change anything? Why is it necessary to have man portable plasma guns to have a space opera, what's wrong with bullets? Rayguns have gone out of fashion anyway, judging from movies like Avatar. Bullets can do the job just as well, lasers will burn a hole in you if sufficiently powerful, but its much more efficient just to have a bullet punch a hole in you, and it will kill you just as dead, lasers can be used for other things, a lower powered laser can, for instance ionize a column of air between the gun and the target, there is not enough energy to burn a hole in the target only to ionize the air so that it conducts electricity, then the gun passes through an electric current through the air connecting with the target, if the voltage is high enough, you can electrocute the target, or with a lower voltage, simply stun them, that is an electrolaser, a weaker laser can do that. Lasers work better in space, a bullet if fired a long distance in space can be detected by radar and evaded, as laser cannot be as it travels at the speed of light, and locally at the tactical level, the speed of light is the ultimate speed limit, we make exceptions for FTL drives, but those apply only under special circumstances that don't come into play in space combat scenarios, the laser beam cannot be detected before it strikes, and the first information about the laser beam is the laser beam itself striking the starship. On a tactical level with... That's good reasoning, but that kind of reasoning is hard sci-fi, not Space Opera, that's my argument about Traveller ruleset (not just the standard campaing setting) needing serious modifications when you want to play a future that doesn't look like XXI century Earth with just some kind of starships that need several years to go to another solar system.
The least I expect from a Space Opera is unexpensive Kevlar suits (or whatever comes next) and unexpensive Gauss Rifles, instead of UZIs and a second world war helmet.
wraithstrike wrote: I think Super Genius had a similar project one time for a modern system, but funding was an issue. It may end up being something several board members have to get together to do. That is how DSP was started. I am guessing that since most of us have jobs that don't allow 8 hours of game developing time that it would a year or more to develop the system.
PS:If it was not Super Genius then I apologize in advance.
You're absolutely correct. I can't speak for them, but I have my doubts that they'll take the route to relaunch a second attempt on this as Hyrum has since joined Paizo and they're busy with the Dungeon-A-Day project on top of all the other things they have their hands in right now. It's a shame, because I had high hopes of what could be carved out of that niche with Owen and Stan! at the developer helm. :(
not traveller.....its just not epic enough....so not serenity either
STARFINDER needs the PF model regard number of classes and races
need a way to hone in skill numbers. With black nova d20 i had about 40 and it was way to many....25 tops id say
armour is always a tricky thing in space games
Pilot should be a skill, with pilotting feats allowing the cool stuff / range of vehicle classes...so many folks can pilot buit only the 'pilot' class is the best combat pilot
no over arching empire......lots factions, consortium, noble houses, etc vying for control
Personally, it needs to start with the basics such as core/base races and classes, parse down the skill set into a more streamlined bundle, revisit some of the feats to make them applicable; etc. That will have to be standardized. Follow up with the basics on equipment and armor.
Anything beyond that can be added as supplemental content (i.e. fluff & crunch) in their own releases.
thenovalord wrote: need a way to hone in skill numbers. With black nova d20 i had about 40 and it was way to many....25 tops id say
Any way to track this down? Only thing I see alluding to this was a 8+ year old thread on EnWorld. I'm given the impression that might have been 'free' or public domain?
didn't the game mastery guide have details or something on space flight or something???
Good stuff. I'd love to see a sci-fi RPG with the Pathfinder ruleset.
I'm still holding out hope for these products from Sinister Adventures. Their write-ups are intriguing.
Tom Qadim wrote: Good stuff. I'd love to see a sci-fi RPG with the Pathfinder ruleset.
I'm still holding out hope for these products from Sinister Adventures. Their write-ups are intriguing.
Heh. People will be happy just to have Razor Coast see the light of day.
Kenneth Cole wrote:
A key to "Starfinder" to me would be to limit the range of known space, and make a great deal of this game about exploring new solar systems.
I would imagine a core of maybe six or seven populated planets and only a small host of playable races. Else you get into such a variety of playable races that you get bogged down in the character creation process, or nothing seems special or unique because everything is weird.
Did anyone else play Star Frontiers?
+1! Exactly what I was thinking ...
thenovalord wrote: not traveller.....its just not epic enough....so not serenity either
STARFINDER needs the PF model regard number of classes and races
need a way to hone in skill numbers. With black nova d20 i had about 40 and it was way to many....25 tops id say
armour is always a tricky thing in space games
Pilot should be a skill, with pilotting feats allowing the cool stuff / range of vehicle classes...so many folks can pilot buit only the 'pilot' class is the best combat pilot
There is the skill 'Fly' in Pathfinder, why not use Fly to "Fly" a spacecraft, the game mechanics would be the same, the setting particulars would be different of course, but I see no reason to add another skill where one already exists. Fly in Pathfinder was used to deal with the skill of flying using magical equipment, beasts and spells which allow flight, spaceflight is another kind of flight, so I think Fly could be used in this setting to fly spacecraft and air craft, the ability to used controls and other things are implied in the use of this skill, it doesn't mean that a fantasy character imported from another universe with the Fly skill could automatically fly a spacecraft, but for that you put an asterisk next to the skill and an explainatory not detailing what exactly he can fly, otherwise in the Starfinder Universe, Fly means the ability to use various machines that allow flight in both air and space, as space travel is common here.
thenovalord wrote: no over arching empire......lots factions, consortium, noble houses, etc vying for control
I believe a more normal situation paralleling the Nations of Earth might be called for here, it is hard to draw borders on a 3 dimensional map. I would suggest the campaign area include only a small portion of inhabited space. A sphere in a section of space similar to a part of the Galaxy in the Earth's neighborhood would include about 1000 stars, 90% of these would be red dwarfs, this would leave 100 stars of more interesting types, these would be type K, G, and F mostly main sequence stars, perhaps a few giants, some white dwarfs and perhaps a black hole or two. The campaign history is thousands of years into the future, exactly how far into the future is uncertain, there was an interstellar Dark Age that followed a war which occured after the initial wave of colonization and terraforming, the records have been somewhat jumbled, and even the original location of Earth is uncertain, but what is certain is that the life on most of the habitable planets is derived from a single planet which the legends say is Earth, much of it has been genetically modified to adapt to the various unearly environments presented by some not so completely terraformed planets, these creatures have in turn become alien in most senses, except for the fact that they are all DNA protean-based and taken from the genentic stock which could only have evolved on a single planet. Many planets possess similar life forms as a result, though enough time has elapsed and enough genetic manipulation has occured that the life has adapted to the particulars of each planet that they inhabit, there is a wide variety of unfamiliar looking and alien life, which if examined at the cellular level isn't really alien at all, but derived from Earth stock life forms. Galactic biologists have puzzeled over this for quite some time, but most galactic sentients don't spend too much time worrying about it. Many planets claim to be Earth, most have no fossil records prior to about 3000 to 5000 years in the past, with ample evidence of terraforming that probably occured prior to or during the Interstellar Dark Age.
Sketchpad wrote: Kenneth Cole wrote:
A key to "Starfinder" to me would be to limit the range of known space, and make a great deal of this game about exploring new solar systems.
I would imagine a core of maybe six or seven populated planets and only a small host of playable races. Else you get into such a variety of playable races that you get bogged down in the character creation process, or nothing seems special or unique because everything is weird.
Did anyone else play Star Frontiers?
+1! Exactly what I was thinking ... Most planets would not be home planets, most habitable planets are terraformed colonies or once were colonies, and have since been abandoned or perhaps have regressed to a pre stellar tech level during the Dark Age and have not been recontacted since. The current era is analogous to the Renassance era on Earth and the Age of Exploration, but with much higher tech of course. The Dark Age was a time of high tech also in most places, but trade and communication had broken down, and the records of that era are scattered and incomplete, that's how I would play it. The local area would have a few playable races, but they would inhabity multiple worlds, plus the fact that most "alien" races are derived from Terran Stock animals or are highly modified humans. True alien creatures discovered so far are animals, none more clever than a smart chimp of dolphin, Most alien biospheres aren't compatible with humans, the proteins they are based on are alien, human digestive systems can't break them down, the air mixture on truly alien planets are usually unsuitable for humans and at least require breathing masks,and at worst require full environment suits for humans to operate in, a good example would be a planet like Pandora such as in the Avatar movie. Alien biochemistry is usually indigestible at best and poisonous at worst, and lots of things would trigger alergy attacks as the human immune system reacts to foreign particles in the air. Fortunately, most planets in the setting are not truly alien, but are in fact terraformed planets seeded in the distant past with Earth derived life forms, so creatures on those planets can eat humans and be eaten by humans with little ill effect - which is basically what we are shooting for I believe. The time is thousands of years in the future, the time when mankind first left his home planet is as remote to this period as the time of ancient Babylon and the city states of Sumer are to us in the present.
Vic Wertz wrote: Right now, we're very focussed on strengthening what we do best—and that's fantasy gaming. So—not in the cards for us anytime soon. Good!
I'd like to see a modern or sci-fi game with the Pathfinder rules too, but I'd much rather have the Paizo gang focused on keeping quality fantasy products coming.
Urizen wrote: thenovalord wrote: need a way to hone in skill numbers. With black nova d20 i had about 40 and it was way to many....25 tops id say
Any way to track this down? Only thing I see alluding to this was a 8+ year old thread on EnWorld. I'm given the impression that might have been 'free' or public domain? e mail me
jrrtalking(at)aol(dot)com and i'll email to you
Vic Wertz wrote: Right now, we're very focussed on strengthening what we do best—and that's fantasy gaming. So—not in the cards for us anytime soon.
But that's part of why we offer the Pathfinder RPG Compatibility License...
It would be difficult to design a space opera game that isn't a standalone product, wouldn't it? But the compatibility license disallows standalone products.
Capt. D wrote: Vic Wertz wrote: Right now, we're very focussed on strengthening what we do best—and that's fantasy gaming. So—not in the cards for us anytime soon. Good!
I'd like to see a modern or sci-fi game with the Pathfinder rules too, but I'd much rather have the Paizo gang focused on keeping quality fantasy products coming.
Who said there needs to be a tradeoff? Remember what Pathfinder is? It is basically a refinement and continuation of the old D&D Third edition rules. Right now I am preparing on old D&D third edition module for my Pathfinder game, it is called the Sunless Citadel. I am finding the differences between the two systems to be very illustrative. One thing I notice is that Pathfinder has some catchall skills, one called Perception which substitutes for Search, Spot, and listen for example. Another skill such as Fly, could be used in a science fiction setting to fly a spaceship instead of a broomstick, or a magic carpet, the actual dice rolling would be the same to determine if you could fly a spaceship. Now if Pathfinder doesn't want to do science fiction, perhaps a third party could, but the value in the product is in its compatability, not because we necessarily want to introduce fantasy characters into a science fiction campaign, but because people familiar with Pathfinder and 3rd edition D&D could readily get up to speed in understanding the basic mechanics of the game, since they are already familiar with them, and dive directly into the setting, instead of spending time learning how to score a hit with some futuristic weapon. I think the modifications to the basic mechanic to adapt it to science fiction need to be minimal. I think one thing is clear, futuristic personal weapons should not be more damaging that medeaval weapons, the main differences is that their ranges are longer and they penetrate medeaval armor much as a hot knife would through butter. My guess is futuristic armor would depend more on camouflage rather than the ability to deflect a projectile, though their is some of that too. The camouflage component of futuristic armor is whats responsible for Armor Class (AC), the deflection component is whats responsible for damage resistance (DR). Damage resistance works the same as in the Pathfinder game, though most Pathfinder armor doesn't have damage resistance. Weapons in the pathfinder system only do 1 or 2 dice worth of damage. My recommendation is to convert the armor protection values of Pathfinder Armor into Damage Resistance at a 1 for 1 basis. Make the futuristic weapons do mostly multiple dice of damage. A laser rifle might do 2d10 points of damage for example. For medeaval armor, have the DR apply only to the first die of damage only, that is my recommendation, so that the DR is only subtracted from the first 1d10 of damage, the second 1d10 is unaffected and delivers the full amount of damage.
A 2d10 worth of damage has a range of from 2 to 20 points, another thing that could be done is range limits on personal weapons systems. Lets suppose there is a powerful military assault rifle that does 3d10 points of damage but with a range limit of 20, that means the maximum damage it can inflict is 20 points of damage to a person. You roll the 3d10 points of damage if you hit, subtract the DR and if the total damage inflicted is still above 20 points of damage, you reduce it to the maximum range for that weapon which is 20 point in this case, the extra points have only value in reducing the damage value before the maximum range rule is imposed. Medeaval armor DR is only applied to the first die of damage, modern armors are not so restricted, their penetration protect can apply to the first two dice of damage before the maximum damage range of the opponent's weapon is imposed. This has the effect of causing modern and futuristic weapons to mostly ignore medeaval armor, though it does provide some slight protection. Projectile weapons may do a little less damage after penetrating medeaval armor, modern armor offers better protection, modern armor with "Chameleon circuits" provide the best protection yet, as they prevent the projectiles from hitting in the first place by preventing the enemy from aquiring the target by making it less visible to him.
thenovalord wrote: Urizen wrote: thenovalord wrote: need a way to hone in skill numbers. With black nova d20 i had about 40 and it was way to many....25 tops id say
Any way to track this down? Only thing I see alluding to this was a 8+ year old thread on EnWorld. I'm given the impression that might have been 'free' or public domain? e mail me
jrrtalking(at)aol(dot)com and i'll email to you Sent! Thanks!
Tarren Dei wrote: Vic Wertz wrote: Right now, we're very focussed on strengthening what we do best—and that's fantasy gaming. So—not in the cards for us anytime soon.
But that's part of why we offer the Pathfinder RPG Compatibility License...
It would be difficult to design a space opera game that isn't a standalone product, wouldn't it? But the compatibility license disallows standalone products. Just use my simple rule, convert Pathfinder armor protection to DR, then have that DR apply only to the first die of damage from modern and futuristic weapons. Impose a "damage limit" on damage of modern and futuristic weapons and apply DR to the damage amount before the damage limit of the weapons system is imposed. The reasoning is simple, high velocity projectiles tend to pass through the body and keep on going, the full damage of the bullet is not applied to the target because the target doesn't stop the bullet, it keeps on going after it exits the body, because it has that extra kinetic energy left over there is a damage limit to what it can do to the target it hits. If the bullet hits armor first, the DR of that armor dissapates some of the kinetic energy of the bullet, the bullet is now moving slower when it enters the body, and the damage that would have previously escaped the body when armor was not worn, is now applied to the body. the conversion between Pathfinder and Starfinder is rather simple. Medeaval weapons don't have damage limits because they move slower, human bodies tend to stop swords and arrows completely when they are hit, so the damage limit of them is above the maximum damage their damage dice can inflict, for modern weapons the opposite is true.
armour is tricky
i made it deflective and absorbtive
so a light/plastech armour may have AC: bonus +5, DR:2
whereas a heavy battle armour may have AC bonus:+2, DR:7
I gave everyone a +1 doge bonus every 4 levels
the level 10 or so character have defences from
AC 20 / DR3 (assassin synthectic person) to
AC 15 / DR11 (full cyborg Technician type class)
everyone seemd to like it
thenovalord wrote: armour is tricky
i made it deflective and absorbtive
so a light/plastech armour may have AC: bonus +5, DR:2
whereas a heavy battle armour may have AC bonus:+2, DR:7
I gave everyone a +1 doge bonus every 4 levels
the level 10 or so character have defences from
AC 20 / DR3 (assassin synthectic person) to
AC 15 / DR11 (full cyborg Technician type class)
everyone seemd to like it
What if we alter the weapons?
Weapon ------- Dmg(S) DL(S) Dmg(M) DL(M) Critical Range Type
Dagger ------- 1d3 -- 7 --- 1d4 -- 9 --- x2 ----- 3 m - P or S
Short sword -- 1d4 -- 9 --- 1d6 -- 13 -- 19-20/x2 ___ - P
Longsword ---- 1d6 -- 13 -- 1d8 -- 17 -- 19-20/x2 ___ - S
Greatsword --- 1d10 - 21 -- 2d6 -- 25 -- 19-20/x2 ___ - S
Shortbow ----- 1d4 -- 9 -- 1d6 -- 13 -- x3 ----- 20 m - P
Longbow ------ 1d6 -- 13 -- 1d8 -- 17 -- x3 ----- 30 m - P
Hvy Crossbow - 1d8 -- 17 -- 1d10 - 21 -- 19-20/x2 40 m - P
Revolver ----- 2d6 -- 7 --- 2d8 -- 9 --- x2 ----- 30 m - P
Rifle -------- 2d6 -- 7 --- 2d8 -- 9 --- x2 ----- 75 m - P
Assault Rifle 3d6 -- 12 -- 3d8 -- 14 -- x2 ----- 45 m - P
Laser Pistol 2d8 -- 10 -- 2d10 - 12 -- x2 ----- 36 m - E
Laser Rifle 3d8 -- 15 -- 3d10 - 17 -- x2 ----- 60 m - E
Armor ----------- Type --- DR1 --- DR+ --- Armor Bonus
Chainmail ------- Med. --- 6 ----- 0 ----- 0
Half-plate ------ Hvy. --- 8 ----- 0 ----- 0
Full plate ------ Hvy. --- 9 ----- 0 ----- 0
Ballistic cloth - Med. --- 4 ----- 3 ----- 0
Camo-cloth ------ Med. --- 4 ----- 3 ----- +3
Ceramic Armor --- Hvy. --- 6 ----- 4 ----- 0
Chameleon Armor - Hvy. --- 6 ----- 4 ----- +4
Power Armor ----- Hvy. --- 8 ----- 6 ----- +6
A little explaination is required
DL is the damage limit for each weapon, this damage limit reflect the maximum damage such a weapon can inflict, this includes bonuses such as attributed to strength and critical hits where you multiply the damage, the damage limit is still the maximum amount that can be inflicted by this weapon regardless. DR1 is the Damage Reduction that is subtracted from the first die of damage only, at the DM's discretion, this could be the die that inflicts the largest single die of damage, so if a weapon inflicts 2d6 points of damage and one die roll was a 4 and the other was a 3, then DR1 comes out of the higher amount, but it can be out of only one die!
DR+ is the Damage Reduction that comes out of all the rest of the damage after DR 1 is subtracted. Medeaval Armors don't have DR+ values because they weren't designed to stop bullets or lasers, also they are quite visible and don't get AC bonuses for conceilment as many modern and futuristic armors do. Damage Reduction is subtracted from rolled damage before the DL is imposed, this is important, because this is what makes medeaval armor ineffective against modern weapons, but effect against medeaval weapons!
I think you are overdoing the damage of high tech weapons. A sword can kill in one hit as easily as a space blaster. The typical human has 6 hit points.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Kenneth Cole wrote: Lord Fyre wrote: Yes, that is what we need!
We need a good Space Opera RPG (and supporting adventure material).
A key to "Starfinder" to me would be to limit the range of known space, and make a great deal of this game about exploring new solar systems.
I would imagine a core of maybe six or seven populated planets and only a small host of playable races. Else you get into such a variety of playable races that you get bogged down in the character creation process, or nothing seems special or unique because everything is weird.
Did anyone else play Star Frontiers? Yes, although it had its problems. Alpha Dawn had no spaceship rules and Knight Hawks' tacked on rules didn't always mesh well.
TSR's Alternity system (and the Star*Drive setting) did a fairly good job, IMO. It had very different system mechanics than d20, however, and the lack of supporting material (due to TSR's collapse/buy-out) means a lot of work for the GM.
Note that a lot of the problems with a space opera campaign are similar to that of a fantasy sea-faring campaign: the cost of the ship (both initially and repairs/upgrades/replacements), hiring and upkeep of a crew (unless the PCs can do everything that's required to operate/sail the ship), and what the party does when not "flying/sailing around waiting for someone/something to attack them." The first is usually handled through deus-ex-machina methods, so that the party can start with a ship that they would otherwise not be able to afford; alternately, they start as members of a crew on a ship owned by an NPC, which provides a ready-made "patron" for the PCs until they can afford to purchase a ship (or possibly salvage one). The second requires a lot of GM involvement and deftness, as the crew will be supporting characters similar to cohorts/followers (or actually be so). The third is the one that "scuttles" many long-term campaigns, since it requires the development of an economic rules system to track the purchase/transport/sale of bulk cargos to determine profit/loss or a strict limitation on PC actions (such as serving in an established navy).
The other issues with high-tech weapons can be dealt with by using Armor as Damage Reduction or something similar and adding modifiers/energy resistance for energy weapons (i.e., "reflective armor provides an extra +2 AC vs. laser weapons" or "thermal armor provides 5 points of energy resistance vs. plasma weapons"). You could even have certain types of weapon/armor combinations that minimize colateral/friendly fire damage during boarding actions (i.e., low velocity projectiles/flecettes (2d4 damage) and heavy armor (DR 8 vs. such weapons)). Of course this may mean having several different weapons/armors in the ship's armory for each crew member.
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