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Back in 2009 I posed a question to Lisa Stevens that I feel is a looming problem in RPG Tabletop. For that question, watch the following video here at 4:34 Seconds into panel.
At NeonCon 2010 I met up with an old friend that loves to play the game and is now a teacher in the Las Vegas Public school system. She founded an RPG High School Club which she wholeheartedly supports and attends.
She sometimes gets libaray funding to buy books but I feel this is insufficient for the support she really needs. RPG companies can really make a difference on this front and I think a teacher support program should be implemented quickly in order to educate and grassroot future gamers in the hobby.
If there is anyone at Paizo that is interested, I am game to help crack the missing gamer child equation.
Can you print the question for those of us on mobile devices?
I keep thinking about somthing like this being a high school teacher but just havent gotten all my ducks in a row yet
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Well, that is what this post is about. My hope would be to eventually have direct support from Paizo in helping teachers put these clubs together with a plan on how to accomplish this. I would also like to see direct support by way of donated materials that clubs can use readily as well as contact with the teachers. A club packet for getting started would also be in order.
I might also add that there would need to be a teacher's lounge on these forums so educators can get together and share Club ideas that work best. As far as I know, my friend is really alone on this and I think establishing support for her efforts is in the best interest of not only the industry but everyone who plays the game.
I was introduced to D&D though a high school gaming club back in the day. I think this is a brilliant idea!
I can't speak for all the schools in my area, but my son's high school would definitely not go for it. Despite the fact that is 2011, I am continually shocked by the number of people around here who still think D&D is a gateway to satanism or some other occult badness. The mother of one of my son's friends called me one day and grilled me about the game, and cited many "examples" of D&D causing pretty much everything from suicide to psoriasis. Yet she allowed her son to watch grisly horror movies and play M rated video games, many with dark fantasy themes (he was 11 or so at the time). I finally convinced her that none of that was true, sent her some urls to websites that explained things better than I could, and he played for a little while until he got older and discovered his mom and stepfather's stash and has spent his senior year wearing an ankle monitor and peeing in a cup for random drug tests. Sigh....
Another example of the mindset around this area: My son and some friends tried like hell to get a debate club or team for the school. They talked to potential sponsors, etc. It was met with a rousing round of apathy and instead the school started a skeet-shooting club.
Sorry, I ranted. I do that. So if there ARE any schools in the central Arkansas area that offers or even allows such a club, I'd love to hear about them.
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It would be interesting to hear other teachers' experience of this.
RPG clubs, by their nature, would probably run quite late.
In my last school I ran a film club. I was told that all clubs except sport should finish by 4:30 (giving us an hour). It took a lot of wrangling and special permissions to get the club running until 5:30 so that we could watch films in one sitting.
I personally think offering a club for roleplaying games is a fantastic idea. Probably a typical feeling from the kinds of wonderous nerds that lurk on these message boards, but still...awesome idea. Incoming tangent
Anyway...I have probably rambled on and on far past being intelligable. Suffice it to say that I truly hope there are some young-blood unabashed geeks out there that can take the fight for table-top roleplaying to our increasingly separatist digital society.
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We have had a consistent Wednesday Gaming group with a student DM (My son, I am so proud) for a year and a half. This is at a middle school level. They only go two hours after school, but are still enthusiastic.
I heartily encourage all of you to attempt this or ask to volunteer to help this happen at your school. There is a high probability that there is a teacher at your school who is or was a gamer. However, these teachers will need support from parents.
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My school demographic doesnt seem like most would be very interested in a gaming club, but im going to start putting our feelers
The other problem with a highschool rpg club is it takes a year or so to get to be a solid player and with all the turn over of kids and hobbies I think it would be hard to keep a solid group that would make the gaming experince fun for everyone involoved
When I was in high school, some friends and I were printing gaming stuff off in the computer lab and a teacher asked us if we were doing devil-worshiping things. Very odd experience. The teacher that said this still works there, too. Sadly, for him, one of the friends started doing articles for the local newspaper and wrote up an article about the experience. According to him, there were a lot of calls from parents wondering who this teacher was (the article didn't name him) but he never gave up the name, as far as I know.
I think a lot of teachers (and school admins) at my high school would be hesitent to have a gaming club. That said, if parents were willing to step up their game, they could probably get something implemented.
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We have had a consistent Wednesday Gaming group with a student DM (My son, I am so proud) for a year and a half. This is at a middle school level. They only go two hours after school, but are still enthusiastic.
I heartily encourage all of you to attempt this or ask to volunteer to help this happen at your school. There is a high probability that there is a teacher at your school who is or was a gamer. However, these teachers will need support from parents.
a little off topic, but Jozka; any news on having DVDs of the Burnt Offerings play for sale on the site? last I had heard Vic was tlaking to you about it....
Just last night, I was pondering a TV show regarding people just.. playing RPGs.
But this idea sorta trumps it. Honestly. A crusade to educate those that still believe that these sort of games are a gateway to... TO be frank. Evil. Its silly for people to still think that. How could we begin to educate those that still see these sort of games as evil? Or satantic.. Or gateways to worse things.
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...snip, lots of cool stuff...
Fortunately none of these worries apply to me as I live and work in the UK.
I'd love to hear from teachers who have run these clubs.
How did you get interest in school?
Did you GM, or students?
How long is needed for a good session?
Any problems with mindset/content/behaviour/expectations/anything?
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I have been delaying it for two reasons. The first is my video editor has been very busy (the first cut was rough). The second is related to some non-pPaizo copywrite (music) issues.
OK - I'm still waiting with baited breath to see it. and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
back to the main discussion: one of the tech schools in our area actually hosts a small con as a fund raiser once a year... not sure how that started, as I was away @ college at the time
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As soon as the pathfinder intro boxed set comes out, I am going to show it to all of the 4th graders at the school I work at. I hope to start several little sessions for them so that they can pass to there friends.
Hell I will pass through the school district if I have to hahahah
+ 1 to Pathfinder
Progress Report ( I am sorry your son is not doing well in Algebra but is coming along fine as a Priest of Asmodeus!!! >:)
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...snip, lots of cool stuff...Fortunately none of these worries apply to me as I live and work in the UK.
I'd love to hear from teachers who have run these clubs.
How did you get interest in school?
Did you GM, or students?
How long is needed for a good session?
Any problems with mindset/content/behaviour/expectations/anything?
I think that about clinches it. I will bring in the teacher in question to answer these questions and to debunk those that think everyone will try to stop you because Devil Underwear Wearing.
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As soon as the pathfinder intro boxed set comes out, I am going to show it to all of the 4th graders at the school I work at. I hope to start several little sessions for them so that they can pass to there friends.
Hell I will pass through the school district if I have to hahahah+ 1 to Pathfinder
Progress Report ( I am sorry your son is not doing well in Algebra but is coming along fine as a Priest of Asmodeus!!! >:)
In regards to the whole thread, I embraced RPGs and card games because of a club started in Middle School. There wasn't any support at the high school, so it sort of fizzled out. I am a high school math teacher now and here's a few things I've noticed:
1. If you're going to start a club like this, get interest at the middle school level.2. Get the support of other faculty members first, then move to administration.
3. Get parent involvement. This is key. My dad was thrilled that I was learning card games after school and before long joined me.
4. Get continued support/involvement at higher levels.
In regards to this post, I'd consider passing a student if they came up to me and said, "I've optimized this cleric for combat buffs and healing. I'm sorry I didn't get my homework done, would you accept this instead?"
"Yeah!!!"
I started playing 20-odd years ago, when I was in middle school, and picked it up from some of my uncles. My mother is a middle-school teacher, with background in history, reading, and gifted & talented education. She was not ever a teacher at my school, but certainly went to bat with the other kids' parents whenever somebody got freaked out. Being a teacher herself gave her some authoritativeness, but any parent could certainly do the same.
Her basic schtick was along the lines of, "So, your kids are their friends are hanging out in your basement / kitchen table / rec room, where you can keep an eye on them. They're not smoking, or drinking, or doing drugs - they're doing math, and reading, and writing stories, and performing way above their grade level at all of that. Can you explain to me what exactly it is that you're worried about?" Um, well, you see, uh, when you put it that way...
We never had any sort of formal club at school, though all those same arguments certainly apply. Closest we came is that during middle school dances, we had the option of going to the gym or study hall instead - a group of us landed a room to play D&D as another option. (I think my mom had a little chat with the school librarian, who then was our champion.) A word of warning, though: skipping school dances to play D&D isn't necessarily the way to be popular in middle school. As if you couldn't guess.
My mom has still never played an RPG, but is definitely a supporter - whenever she finds out I've upgraded editions, she asks for as many prior-edition rulebooks as I can convince my gamer friends to part with. She ends up with a handful of free used PHBs that she hands out to kids in her class who are bright and need something to engage with. She sees it as part of her mentoring and nurturing role in kids' lives - she doesn't have to play herself in order to get that it's what these kids need.
The lesson I'd draw is that a club is a lofty goal - if you're facing the types of concerns that have come up in this thread, it may be the wrong goal to start with. Start with just providing a "safe" environment - if kids are playing at the lunch table (you can get in about one encounter a day, if I recall) and getting funny looks from the administration, you can step up and make the case that, look, these kids are spending their lunch period practicing fractions and probability, and they haven't even covered that in class yet. Once the behavior has been "normalized" to the powers that be, that's when you can start thinking about a pitch about a sanctioned club, or buying rulebooks for the library, etc.
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Query: how many folks would be willing to become $5 monthly subscribers to the Pathfinder Outreach line, and receive nothing in return except for a message board tag and the knowledge that money had gone to using RPGs to promote literacy and other life-skills to teens?
I think the production of high-quality teacher support material is vital for this though. I also realise that Paizo might not want to attach their brands to this particular endeavour — it opens them up to attack somewhat.
I can't speak for all the schools in my area, but my son's high school would definitely not go for it. Despite the fact that is 2011, I am continually shocked by the number of people around here who still think D&D is a gateway to satanism or some other occult badness.
That's the great thing about it being Pathfinder and not Dungeons & Dragons, all the knuckle-draggers that would be against it because they heard some third hand bad press back in the day won't associate it. "It's like a game where you play the characters from Harry Potter or Clash of the Titans." Now, I know there are some places so conservative that they would bridle even at that description, but you can't fix crazy.
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Well, I hate to give out my good ideas (I have so few of them), but here goes.
I want to develop a Middle/High school version of the Pathfinder Society. I would set it in Absalom, titled "The Gangs of Abasalom." The basic structure of gameplay would be similar to Pathfinder Society, but the feeling slightly different. There would be competing "gangs" or schools vying for control over the youth culture of Absalom.
I figure we can tie in many different gang factions that appeal to the age we are talking about and also tie into many books that are out on the market. One gang could be from the local Harry Potteresque mage school, another could be a bunch of Oliver/Thief Lord runaways and street orphans, another could be a gang of sparkly vampires (just kidding on the last one). You could set up scenarios based on teen literature and have cross-over curriculum with various Reading and Writing teachers.
Different groups within the club could choose a gang and all the gangs could be competing with gangs from other schools all across the world. Or groups could be competing from the luxury of their own private games. This could lead to an youth online Pathfinder gaming phenom...
Now I just need to figure out where I am going to find the time to do all of this, seeing as I have another Pathfinder play to write for production in Spring of 2012....
"It's like a game where you play the characters from Harry Potter or Clash of the Titans." Now, I know there are some places so conservative that they would bridle even at that description, but you can't fix crazy.
I managed a video store when the first Harry Potter film became available for rental. One of my customers went on a 15 minute rant about how satanic and subversive Harry Potter was because it depicted wizards and witches while renting Disney's "Snow White" and "Sleeping Beauty" for his granddaughter.
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Query: how many folks would be willing to become $5 monthly subscribers to the Pathfinder Outreach line, and receive nothing in return except for a message board tag and the knowledge that money had gone to using RPGs to promote literacy and other life-skills to teens?
I think the production of high-quality teacher support material is vital for this though. I also realise that Paizo might not want to attach their brands to this particular endeavour — it opens them up to attack somewhat.
I'd be interested.
I teach high school. For about 14 years I've advised our game club. It's inclusive in game types (paper and pencil rpg, board, card, video and computer), What students want to do has varied over time. At first it was D&D and computer games, then card games dominated for awhile, then video games. Currently it's video games (360 and PS3), card games and paper and pencil rpgs in pretty similar numbers.
This is a pretty conservative area, but I had the backing of an excellent principal to get it up and running. I've promoted it as a good social activity for students in a supervised setting. It takes parent permission to join and parents can suspend their students from club activities in the event of grade issues, etc. I haven't had any major issues with parents primarily due to the neccesity of parent permission, it being a peer activity (a big hit for parents worried about the lack of social contact in computer / video games) and some common sense. It doesn't hurt that it's open to parents / faculty to come and observe as well as students who want to take a look. The counselors and faculty here are for the most part very positive about it as well.
I've also helped students get off the ground in coding, 3D modelling / animation and other areas (as well as running RPGs of course). The club usually has between 30 and 50 members in any given year and meets on Fridays for several hours (and informally at lunch for the card gaming crowd). It takes up quite a bit of my time, but I haven't regretted it yet. And several of my current adult players graduated from my high school about a decade ago...
To be honest though, if you wanted to promote Pathfinder through school clubs it would be a bit uncertain. In a lot of areas games, especially RPGs, are anathema. To administrations they could be considered potential magnets for trouble with socially conservative bigo... er parents. It's great when it happens, but I'm not too sure about how much "bang for the buck" you'd get out of it as a means of spreading the hobby. Mainly, I suspect, it would be "preaching to the choir" in terms of participation. Great for the kids who get the opportunity though. Gives them a whole new reason to come to school and adds some fun to it.
One of my players started one at his school. It has since been canceled because the school felt they had insufficient funds to pay the teacher the extra hours for him to stay after school with the club.
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So if there ARE any schools in the central Arkansas area that offers or even allows such a club, I'd love to hear about them.
Off-topic for DungeonmasterCal.
Only after following up on another thread did I realize you also lived in Conway. Now that I know that, I will add this. It is my hope that in the near future I can head up to Conway and run a couple Pathfinder Society scenarios. I know of a few gamers in the Conway/Greenbriar area, so making at least one table shouldn't be too difficult. I actually just messaged John Booher, the owner of CGC, to see if he thought his shop would be good for an event like this. I would be interested in doing the same with The Bat Cave. I hope to see you on the CAGG page so when I do get to head up there you'll know in advance and be able to sit in if you like
There are also a couple avid board gamers and part-time roleplayers that just joined us. At least one of them lives in Conway as well
Tam
One of my players started one at his school. It has since been canceled because the school felt they had insufficient funds to pay the teacher the extra hours for him to stay after school with the club.
I do it for free. I'm not surprised that they could not fund a teacher for afterschool for a club. While it counts as part of our adjunct duty the amount of time needed to advise any club (much less one that meets regularly after school) goes way beyond the requirements (which amount to helping out at several activities per year). Club advisors here volunteer their time in essence.
I got into D&D games after school at our public library. The children's librarian had the PHB, DMG and MM in the bottom drawer of her desk, the one reserved for reference books that were so popular that she had to sign them out personally lest they walk out of the library. I played some great game, got the books a bit later myself (buying them off a kid who'd got them as a present but didn't like them), and soon after transitioned into DMing.
The library even sponsored a gaming tournament in the community activities room.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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As soon as the pathfinder intro boxed set comes out, I am going to show it to all of the 4th graders at the school I work at. I hope to start several little sessions for them so that they can pass to there friends.
Hell I will pass through the school district if I have to hahahah+ 1 to Pathfinder
Progress Report ( I am sorry your son is not doing well in Algebra but is coming along fine as a Priest of Asmodeus!!! >:)
I got the introduction Battletech boxed set for the godkids, just haven't had time to get them into it (well that, and they've been sick this month). I'll likely do the same thing when 'Pathfinder Basic' comes out.
"Dear parent. Your son was suspended for fighting in school today. Another kid was bullying him and he punched the bully in the nose after yelling 'Roll for initiative'."
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I got into D&D games after school at our public library. The children's librarian had the PHB, DMG and MM in the bottom drawer of her desk, the one reserved for reference books that were so popular that she had to sign them out personally lest they walk out of the library. I played some great game, got the books a bit later myself (buying them off a kid who'd got them as a present but didn't like them), and soon after transitioned into DMing.
The library even sponsored a gaming tournament in the community activities room.
Well, me and some fellow staff members are planning to start running Pathfinder at our library; fortunately, we have 6 copies of the core rulebook in the library collection. :) This service will naturally be for anybody interested in trying out RPGs and/or without a group of their own. It's a pretty simple concept: one adventure (i.e. 3-5 sessions) per each group of players, and after we've finished the adventure they can form a "real" gaming group of their own (if they only want to).
We are also co-operating with the local gaming store; there's been some talk about organizing a 4E tournament, and possibly even running short PF, Heroquest and 4E scenarios on worldwide gaming days.
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Hmm, nobody touching this from Paizo?
You know Gencon has a teacher path the day before Gencon in which they held a talk panel about integrating gaming clubs in schools.
It would be nice to have a similar seminar at Paizocon in the future!!
I don't know if anyone at Paizo is actually following this thread, but there is an Idea I would love to participate in.
I know that there are teachers out there who have successfully started and nurtured clubs at their schools.
Wow, perhaps this is a case of too much too soon.
A starter set is an idea. An old idea. However teachers at school supporting the Pathfinder Game top down never happened in my day. Will it not happen in my son's day either?
We are wondering.
It depends on the school and the community arround it. Many schools are doing this type of thing with various gaming clubs. Some have been for years. Some of my college friends talked about their school-sponsored groups that would be 10 years old now. Sometimes it just takes the right teacher to be proactive in starting the club.
I, too would like to see a beginners box set, since that is how I got into the game, getting a copy for my 10th birthday.
Hey I advise a gaming club at the high school I teach in. (Donations welcome check our wish list ^_^).
I have been lucky since I was able to get grant funds from a school organization that gives small grants to for teachers in class and for some extra curricular. It wasn't much and it is one time, but we were able to get a core rule and bestiary. We have no official funding beyond that. Though we did have some wonderful benefactors who sent us a heaping box of paizo gear. I shall allow them to remain nameless unless they choose to name themselves.
As for getting kids started, This was around when Council of Theives was coming out. My co advisor and I made up 11 pregens in stat block style and a converted swashbuckler. We made them level 2 so they could get a feel for where they might be going. Kids got to pick different ones and watch each other play the Goblin and the Pie. Then we then ran an encounter at the Tavern CoT starts in, but before the new ownership. Their actions there get them a job providing security. We took a few weeks and ran a dungeon adventure called Shut in. We felt it had a nice mix of skill checks, RP, and Combat. Some kids really liked the mystery element.
After that we helped them make characters from scratch and started council of thieves. One group just got out of the Asmodean knot with a million diseases and the other is still trying to get out.
My students and I were even running PFS at the Local Borders, we need to find a new home for it now that the store is closing.
Hmm, nobody touching this from Paizo?You know Gencon has a teacher path the day before Gencon in which they held a talk panel about integrating gaming clubs in schools.
It would be nice to have a similar seminar at Paizocon in the future!!
I don't know if anyone at Paizo is actually following this thread, but there is an Idea I would love to participate in.
I know that there are teachers out there who have successfully started and nurtured clubs at their schools.
GAH! I would have come a day earlier for that!
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I got into D&D games after school at our public library. The children's librarian had the PHB, DMG and MM in the bottom drawer of her desk, the one reserved for reference books that were so popular that she had to sign them out personally lest they walk out of the library. I played some great game, got the books a bit later myself (buying them off a kid who'd got them as a present but didn't like them), and soon after transitioned into DMing.
The library even sponsored a gaming tournament in the community activities room.
Well, me and some fellow staff members are planning to start running Pathfinder at our library; fortunately, we have 6 copies of the core rulebook in the library collection. :) This service will naturally be for anybody interested in trying out RPGs and/or without a group of their own. It's a pretty simple concept: one adventure (i.e. 3-5 sessions) per each group of players, and after we've finished the adventure they can form a "real" gaming group of their own (if they only want to).
We are also co-operating with the local gaming store; there's been some talk about organizing a 4E tournament, and possibly even running short PF, Heroquest and 4E scenarios on worldwide gaming days.
You should also consider running Pathfinder Society adventures too. To get the younger kids and or people that have not tried it before or even veteran players that are in to 3.5. Getting them in to Society play could go a long way to get them to show up to other events held in your area too.
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I admire everyone'e efforts that have stepped forward to show these things do happen. What I am trying to convey to Paizo is that they should send you material to support your initiative. Supply several Core Rulebooks and ditch those modules that are sitting in their warehouses. Get aggressive. Create some package that will give starter club teachers materials so there can be multiple Pathfinder Games going on. Invest in their own future. Get the word out that Pathfinder dominates this galaxy, not insect.
Would you like to know more?
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You should also consider running Pathfinder Society adventures too. To get the younger kids and or people that have not tried it before or even veteran players that are in to 3.5. Getting them in to Society play could go a long way to get them to show up to other events held in your area too.I got into D&D games after school at our public library. The children's librarian had the PHB, DMG and MM in the bottom drawer of her desk, the one reserved for reference books that were so popular that she had to sign them out personally lest they walk out of the library. I played some great game, got the books a bit later myself (buying them off a kid who'd got them as a present but didn't like them), and soon after transitioned into DMing.
The library even sponsored a gaming tournament in the community activities room.
Well, me and some fellow staff members are planning to start running Pathfinder at our library; fortunately, we have 6 copies of the core rulebook in the library collection. :) This service will naturally be for anybody interested in trying out RPGs and/or without a group of their own. It's a pretty simple concept: one adventure (i.e. 3-5 sessions) per each group of players, and after we've finished the adventure they can form a "real" gaming group of their own (if they only want to).
We are also co-operating with the local gaming store; there's been some talk about organizing a 4E tournament, and possibly even running short PF, Heroquest and 4E scenarios on worldwide gaming days.
Sadly, we don't have any PF events around here, and I haven't heard any recent news concerning the local PFS, either.
We just cannot start running official PFS adventures without committing to the Society; which is something I don't think a public institution can or should do. Secondly, we cannot use Paizo's trademarks in advertising the service -- and that would probably contradict the Society rules.
What we *are* going to do is introduce people to PF RPG, and offer them rulebooks and supplements to use for a while. And, naturally, tell newbies that they can purchase their own copies and other gaming material at the local gaming store.
If Pathfinder Basic will eventually be available as a books, we'll probably start using it instead, because it will likely be much easier for newbies than the core rules. As for kids, this service will be for adults only, because another colleague is already running houseruled and simplified D&D for our younger customers.
Do what I did: Have a kid.
My son is 10, almost 11, and already plays Pathfinder, Warmachine, Magic and Pokemon, and has love for all things related, including my uber nerdy miniatures and terrains habits.
His (my) cousin Jack is about a year older, and has just made the jump from cards to miniatures games. If I have my way this summer, he will be dungeon bound and ankle-deep in green slime.
I know other people online whose kids are gaming already. Really, it takes only a nudge to turn all of those card playing kids into tabletop roleplayers. I don't think the situation is as dire as it seems. I think there is a generational gap, with kids in-between (the WoW Generation) opening up a wide expanse between us older kids and the youngest crowd, but as I have been saying for quite a number of years now:
"Our children will avenge us!!!"
I was in a D&D/RPG club in school back in the day ... we gamed for about an hour after school and had to keep our grades at C/70 or above to maintain membership. Our teacher/sponsor didn't have anything to do with the game itself, but rather was a chaperone to make sure we didn't trash the room or raise any major demons. It was fun and we had a good time, though, with this being the mid-80s, we had more success gaming outside of the school environment. It also helped that we had a gaming store at that time.
Flash forward a few decades and here we are today. I have two daughters in their mid-teens and run a Pathfinder campaign with both my kids, five of their friends and my wife, with an additional member occasionally filling a "floating chair". The kids love the social structure, and we've had to limit membership based on the amount of kids that want to play. The floating chair has seen four people occupy it in the last six months, and the kids are all talking about having a Pathfinder/RPG club at school to see if they can bring other people together into groups (as well as scouting for new members to fill our temp spot).
I think having a teacher who understands and enjoys the hobby would help in a club atmosphere, allowing the teacher to either act as GM or teach kids how to GM. In the role I've found myself in with the kids' group, I've been talking about what makes a good character and having the group make most of the decisions, both in-character and out.