just like the subject says, who would be mordenkainen's counterpart in pathfinder?
I don´t really think there is a counterpart to Mordenkainen (or Elminster, if you look at *that other setting*). If anything, the decemvirate of the Pathfinders is perhaps a distorted echo of the Circle of Eight, but a single archmage pulling strings from a mountain fortress? I haven´t seen one yet.
Stefan
Indeed, high-level means about 15+ on Golarion (or even 12+), not 20+ like GH or 25+ like FR. IIRC, the latest Mordenkainen stats had him at level 26 or 28 (Epic-level Handbook), and was level 20 in City of Greyhawk. Karzoug was level 20, an that is a lot for Golarion. I like the rather low level, as it means that the PCs can make more of a difference in the world (which is the intention of the authors). If everyone and their brother is level 20+, the PCs are just irrelevant.
Stefan
just like the subject says, who would be mordenkainen's counterpart in pathfinder?
Some player character
Greg
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We need some old Witch...
Black Alya: Lawful Evil Sorcerer 20, I19, W19, CH19, age 340, Description: Coven Priestess of the Hexenae Covena for two centuries, in the old days she indulged herself in crushing Castles with Mountain Seeds for much of those two hundred years but it quickly burned up the coven resources and drew a lot of attention to the Coven.
She has slipped into obscurity and now she passes herself off as the elderly aunt of some young hero who she has 'adopted and raised' to play off against some Tyrant or the Other. If the PC is a 'nephew' or 'niece' she may dig out some old treasure map that has 'been in the family for centuries' and for a share of the booty, provide her 'relative' the secret entrance to the castle or temple of some blag she wants dead and gone.
Having Aunt Alya as a Relative:
- She will have you convinced that Lord such and such personally raped and strangled your mother and impaled your father in his younger years and that the family has a blood feud with the vile monster.
- The treasure map will lead you to where he hid the family Jewels...so make sure you return some of the family booty to your old aunt but you can keep the coins.
Geb, Nex, and Nethys are the hsitorical Archmages for the setting. Nethys became an actual God. Nex is dead or missing. Geb is dead (and his ghost participates less and less in the world every year.)
The Runelords were up there too, but they're all dead or otherwise isolated from Golarion.
I think the Whispering Tyrant is the closest Vecna analog, but again, dead or trapped.
I think the Whispering Tyrant is the closest Vecna analog, but again, dead or trapped.
I would think so, too. Vecna would have been more secretive about trying to set up a trap to kill a god and take his place, but otherwise, it is a fitting analogy.
Stefan
Geb, Nex, and Nethys are the hsitorical Archmages for the setting. Nethys became an actual God. Nex is dead or missing. Geb is dead (and his ghost participates less and less in the world every year.)
The Runelords were up there too, but they're all dead or otherwise isolated from Golarion.
I think the Whispering Tyrant is the closest Vecna analog, but again, dead or trapped.
What about Razmir the False God? Supposedly he had enough power to waste an entire city in a night, according to the pathfinder wiki.
What about that brat who goes by the pompous title of majestrix. I havent seen any stats on Abrogail.
Baba Yaga's grandaughter seems to be a powerful Archmage
Being as Abrogail (last I checked) is 13, that seems unlikely.
What about that brat who goes by the pompous title of majestrix. I havent seen any stats on Abrogail.
Oh, I have seen her... stats.
Really, the time I spent pretending to be a Chelaxian diabolist were great. And I still get to bask in the warm glow of remembrance - and of course in the aftershocks of my betrayal.
Where is that up-tight, ugly little dwarf when I need him? He's so funny when he's indignant. I wronged him most of all!
Ah, good times!
But since we're talking of pretender gods: I think we should totally have a deathmatch between Walkena and Razmir. I'll bring the banged grains!
Being as Abrogail (last I checked) is 13, that seems unlikely.
What? She told me she was 19, I swear!
Hmmm, since there's a lack of high level NPCs, I have to wonder who keeps the CR 20 monsters in line. You know, the CR 20 ancient dragons and such. I don't think they all just sleep in their lairs waiting for adventurers to become powerful enough to become a threat.
Hmmm, since there's a lack of high level NPCs, I have to wonder who keeps the CR 20 monsters in line. You know, the CR 20 ancient dragons and such. I don't think they all just sleep in their lairs waiting for adventurers to become powerful enough to become a threat.
Attrition.... MPC adventurers get up to high enough level to contain the threat then they get killed, eaten, become rulers with other concerns. The Dragons go home a lick their wounds and the world is safe. Local Heros mourned or made good, dont have as much impact as there are other heros in other locations are just barely fending off the cr20s at the same time.
Also the CR20's would have a tendency to take care of each other. An ancient Blue Dragon rules a patch of desert a couple of old bronzes live in that patch as well. The Blue wont do much as he knows that the bronzes will gang up on him. So they have a proxy war, using allies.
Some adventurer kills a bronze or the blue thats when things become interesting.
An ancient Blue Dragon rules a patch of dessert a couple of old bronzes live in that patch as well.
So when they fight for a bigger slice of the pie, it's literal?
An ancient Blue Dragon rules a patch of dessert a couple of old bronzes live in that patch as well.So when they fight for a bigger slice of the pie, it's literal?
I was thinking more apple crumble or a Pavlova.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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When we were writing our sections of the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, Boomer introduced an NPC in the Mwangi named the Old-Mage Jatembe, and his thought was that this was the "Mage" everyone was talking about when they said "Mage's Private Sanctum" and "Mage's Sword" and "Mage's Disjunction." I don't think that ended up making the cut in the published version of that section, but it was the idea behind it.
Since, of course, those were Mordenkainen's spells once upon a time, you could certainly use the Old-Mage Jatembe as his stand-in on Golarion... IF YOU DARE! :)
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When we were writing our sections of the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, Boomer introduced an NPC in the Mwangi named the Old-Mage Jatembe, and his thought was that this was the "Mage" everyone was talking about when they said "Mage's Private Sanctum" and "Mage's Sword" and "Mage's Disjunction." I don't think that ended up making the cut in the published version of that section, but it was the idea behind it.
Since, of course, those were Mordenkainen's spells once upon a time, you could certainly use the Old-Mage Jatembe as his stand-in on Golarion... IF YOU DARE! :)
I support Old-Mage Jatembe filling that role. As spell-creator and standard setter that is, rather than some "FOR THE BALANCE" chessmaster type guy playing the setting like a fiddle.
(as mentioned upthread, I really prefer the various countries not being puppets of some epic level archmage)
Plus Jatembe seems like he was(is?) a cool guy. He deserves more love.
Creative Director
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Being as Abrogail (last I checked) is 13, that seems unlikely.What about that brat who goes by the pompous title of majestrix. I havent seen any stats on Abrogail.
Baba Yaga's grandaughter seems to be a powerful Archmage
That's been officially updated... Sean says she's in her twenties in a post *here*
Indeed. Queen Abrogail is in her early 20s.
The bit about her being a kid was an early concept that most of us found to be a terrible idea, but it snuck into print anyway.
When we were writing our sections of the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, Boomer introduced an NPC in the Mwangi named the Old-Mage Jatembe, and his thought was that this was the "Mage" everyone was talking about when they said "Mage's Private Sanctum" and "Mage's Sword" and "Mage's Disjunction." I don't think that ended up making the cut in the published version of that section, but it was the idea behind it.
Since, of course, those were Mordenkainen's spells once upon a time, you could certainly use the Old-Mage Jatembe as his stand-in on Golarion... IF YOU DARE! :)
That would have meshed well with the idea that I dropped in about Jatembe potentially being the same person as the mortal Nethys, having moved north to continue uplifting human civilization after he'd done so in the Mwangi.
But they might be two totally different people, now long shrouded by time and the accidental or intentional conflation of their legends by different cultures.
Some player characterjust like the subject says, who would be mordenkainen's counterpart in pathfinder?
Hell yes.
Since, of course, those were Mordenkainen's spells once upon a time, you could certainly use the Old-Mage Jatembe as his stand-in on Golarion... IF YOU DARE! :)
I just read the entry in the PF wiki. Somehow, his nameless ten magic warriors wearing golden masks reminded me of the mysterious hooded leaders of the pathfinder society, who happen to number ten as well... (furthermore, these kind of organizations remind me of the circle of eight as well.)
Stefan
When we were writing our sections of the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, Boomer introduced an NPC in the Mwangi named the Old-Mage Jatembe, and his thought was that this was the "Mage" everyone was talking about when they said "Mage's Private Sanctum" and "Mage's Sword" and "Mage's Disjunction." I don't think that ended up making the cut in the published version of that section, but it was the idea behind it.
Since, of course, those were Mordenkainen's spells once upon a time, you could certainly use the Old-Mage Jatembe as his stand-in on Golarion... IF YOU DARE! :)
I definitely support Jatembe being the "Mage." I really want to learn more about him and the Ten Magic Warriors, it seems like one of the more awesome bits of flavor. The recent stuff on the Ten Magic Warriors made it seem like they were ten faceless goons which is possibly a missed opportunity, it's be nice to have a bunch of non-religious-oriented people for there to be statues about, tales of, etc. across all of Garund.
I really miss Elminster. And the Seven Sisters. :(
That being said, how about Baba Yaga? Okay, so she's not around very much, IIRC, but she certainly is present at some times on Golarion, right?
I would like to third Jutambe being the "Mage" I really liked the idea of him as presented would like to see more. though I am saddened to hear as someone said the magic warriors were presented as faceless goons in a later book.
from my point of view, anyone that would be similar to Elminster or Mord. has already become a god, such as Aroden and Imodae (i hope thats how you spell it, i really like her.)
Mordenkainen was a PC who made it to high levels and created some nifty spells. Gary Gygax actually played him in Kuntz's game. He started off at first level! His 'counterpart' on Golarion could be any wizard PC who makes it to high levels and designs cool new spells.
Golarion seems to be the kind of place where if a NPC wizard gets to high level they have an annoying tendency to go Lich.
Golarion seems to be the kind of place where if a NPC wizard gets to high level they have an annoying tendency to go Lich.
That or the Test of the Starstone, where presumably, many die.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Golarion seems to be the kind of place where if a NPC wizard gets to high level they have an annoying tendency to go Lich.That or the Test of the Starstone, where presumably, many die.
I'd be amused if Razmir has 'what it takes' to pass the Test, but is too afraid.
A lot of the CR 20's go out of their way to not draw attention on some levels, or at least draw attention in bursts to make it clear they're best left alone.
Elder Dragons, Demon Lords, etc. Think of their relation to humans as our relations to most herd animals. We don't really care what a herd of antelope are thinking, but when something makes them stampede in our direction, we're outclassed. Same thing for intelligent Cr 20's. Al'set, the mighty blue dragon, doesn't care which monkey puts a circle of gold on his head and proclaims himself ruler of the lands that Al'set claims. His only concern is if that monkey starts interferring in his plans. Even then, he's likely to find out who is pulling the strings of the monkey, rather than believe the monkey is thinking for himself.
Likewise, Flamestrike the ancient Red may decided to sleep a lot, wake up when the dormant volcano he's in goes through a spurt of activity and then go back to bed. The destruction he causes (and the treasure he collects) work off that 'nervous energy' and he goes back to bed.
Golarion seems to be the kind of place where if a NPC wizard gets to high level they have an annoying tendency to go Lich.That or the Test of the Starstone, where presumably, many die.I'd be amused if Razmir has 'what it takes' to pass the Test, but is too afraid.
A lot of the CR 20's go out of their way to not draw attention on some levels, or at least draw attention in bursts to make it clear they're best left alone.
Elder Dragons, Demon Lords, etc. Think of their relation to humans as our relations to most herd animals. We don't really care what a herd of antelope are thinking, but when something makes them stampede in our direction, we're outclassed. Same thing for intelligent Cr 20's. Al'set, the mighty blue dragon, doesn't care which monkey puts a circle of gold on his head and proclaims himself ruler of the lands that Al'set claims. His only concern is if that monkey starts interferring in his plans. Even then, he's likely to find out who is pulling the strings of the monkey, rather than believe the monkey is thinking for himself.
Likewise, Flamestrike the ancient Red may decided to sleep a lot, wake up when the dormant volcano he's in goes through a spurt of activity and then go back to bed. The destruction he causes (and the treasure he collects) work off that 'nervous energy' and he goes back to bed.
I like this, and use a similar line of thinking in my games. The monsters and people who reach a certain level of power often don't think like the rest of the mortals in the world.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I like this, and use a similar line of thinking in my games. The monsters and people who reach a certain level of power often don't think like the rest of the mortals in the world.
*nods* Kind of OT I know, but I think that's something that got glossed over with Mystra's Chosen. They weren't insane. To quote the Joker, they were 'differently sane'. The Simbul was looking for terraforming (ok, Toril-forming) Thay for Pete's sake. Elminster manipulated long term, and he and Khelben almost got into blows on how to better serve Mystra's will. Even Dove, the most 'normal' of the sisters would see things that her husband and others couldn't.
I think it's the same thing as Mengkare being 'maybe lawful good'. He could be Lawful neutral by mortal timespans, but be Lawful good by draconic standards. 500 years is how many generations of humans? If he's breeding Azlanti 2.0 in case of another Starfall, or other long term goals for 'the greater good' is it that he's not good, or that we can't comprehend his good?
Your not the only one ;)I really miss Elminster. And the Seven Sisters. :(
That being said, how about Baba Yaga? Okay, so she's not around very much, IIRC, but she certainly is present at some times on Golarion, right?
+2
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+2Your not the only one ;)I really miss Elminster. And the Seven Sisters. :(
That being said, how about Baba Yaga? Okay, so she's not around very much, IIRC, but she certainly is present at some times on Golarion, right?
Eh, I never gave them up. :)
When canon just flat out doesn't work with you, obviously it means the canon is wrong. ;)
** spoiler omitted **
Hidden for decency's sake
500 years is how many generations of humans?
25 on the average, with 20 years from one generation to the next. Humans usually start "breeding" around the age of 20 or slightly below, and are done at 25 - 30 years, looking at pseudo-medieval circumstances. There are exceptions to this, of course, in both directions, but on the average, these numbers hold true. I´m no geneticist, but within 25 generations, there might be serious genetical changes that take hold, especially if you take "magical gengeneering" into account.
Stefan
+2Your not the only one ;)I really miss Elminster. And the Seven Sisters. :(
That being said, how about Baba Yaga? Okay, so she's not around very much, IIRC, but she certainly is present at some times on Golarion, right?
Eh, I never gave them up. :)
When canon just flat out doesn't work with you, obviously it means the canon is wrong. ;)
** spoiler omitted **
Why do you always post awesome stuff? :)
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Why do you always post awesome stuff? :)+2Your not the only one ;)I really miss Elminster. And the Seven Sisters. :(
That being said, how about Baba Yaga? Okay, so she's not around very much, IIRC, but she certainly is present at some times on Golarion, right?
Eh, I never gave them up. :)
When canon just flat out doesn't work with you, obviously it means the canon is wrong. ;)
** spoiler omitted **
High fiber diet and a tangerine every day!
I really miss Elminster. And the Seven Sisters. :(
That being said, how about Baba Yaga? Okay, so she's not around very much, IIRC, but she certainly is present at some times on Golarion, right?
Hmmm. last time I ran FR, I killed Elminster off screen before play began. He was erased from existence by an alliance of his enemies, but not before he managed to kill scads of the lame villains left over from the TSR 'code of Ethics' days. I offed Drizzt, too.Orcs got him, got him so bad he aint ever coming back.
.The Harpers were ripped to shreds, and the Zhents got new, smart leadership.
It was joyous. Player reactions ranged from 'good riddance Mary Sues' to 'OMG, he killed Elminster!' Killing these annoying NPCs really made me feel free to use FR as I pleased. It was the deathknell of restrictive 'canon.' It sent a strong signal to the players that their PCs were the heroes who mattered, and that they could not count on NPCs to save the day.
Golarion seems to be the kind of place where if a NPC wizard gets to high level they have an annoying tendency to go Lich.
If by "the kind of place", you mean, any world where this is, at all, possible.
We're talking about something a lot like eternal life here. A lot of people want that. They'd kill for it. They certainly don't mind being corpsefied if it means not only really dying, but getting more powerful in the process.
Especially the evil bastards.
So every world where lichdom is available is the kind of place where powerful spellcasters tend to become liches.
Golarion seems to be the kind of place where if a NPC wizard gets to high level they have an annoying tendency to go Lich.If by "the kind of place", you mean, any world where this is, at all, possible.
We're talking about something a lot like eternal life here. A lot of people want that. They'd kill for it. They certainly don't mind being corpsefied if it means not only really dying, but getting more powerful in the process.
Especially the evil bastards.
So every world where lichdom is available is the kind of place where powerful spellcasters tend to become liches.
Yes... I think that's what I was trying to get at. Except in GH and FR where high-level, helpful mages are relatively common - everywhere else they are much more likely to be either evil or get corrupted by power.