Many people have had issues with the mechanics of crafting for awhile now. What I really don’t like about it is it actually takes you longer to craft items with a lower DC (with high cost items). Due to the fact your result is: Check result multiplied by the DC. So a higher DC will net you more money.
So in the example with the Mithral Agile Half-Plate, if the optional +10 DC is not used (not sure where that’s from, honestly), the DC would be 18 and using the same average 30 check result, it would actually take 65 weeks longer (182 weeks). That just does not make sense. It is easier to make (18 DC instead of 28) but takes much longer.
Since Master Alchemist feat exists then it makes senses that Master Metalsmith(all things metal), Master Leather Worker, etc. should also exist.
Which reduces the time a lot!
I agree that it should take longer to work with mithral, but not the amount adding the 9k does.
For simplicity just add a modifier to the duration depending on the metal.
Silver: +25%
Mithral: +100%
Cold Iron: +150%
Adamantine: +200%
So the armor mentioned above with applying +10 to the DC and getting a 30 on your check it would take 28 days or 3 days with Master Metalworker.
Now add the different metal types:
Regular = 3 days
Silver 3*1.25 = 3.75 or 4 days
Mithral 3*2 = 6 days
Cold Iron 3*2.5 = 7.5 or 8 days
Adamantine 3*3 = 9 days
Without the Master Metalworker feat it would take alot longer
Regular = 28 days
Silver 28*1.25 = 35 days
Mithral 28*2 = 56 days
Cold Iron 28*2.5 = 70 days
Adamantine 28*3 = 84 days
I'm curious, where is this +10 DC coming from? Not questioning it, just have not seen it.
Edit: Nevermind, found it.
Look in the craft skill
Special: You may voluntarily add +10 to the indicated DC to craft an item. This allows you to create the item more quickly (since you'll be multiplying this higher DC by your Craft check result to determine progress). You must decide whether to increase the DC before you make each weekly or daily check.
To make armor by hand can take months of work depending on the tools at hand.
With modern tools you can create plate mail in a few days, but without modern tools it can take months to a year depending on how detailed the armor.
In the fantasy realm I am sure a Master Craftsmith would have access to spells, magic items, etc. to help speed up the process of making items.
If we look at a suit of chainmail DC 16 and making the minimum check (person just able to perform the task) it would take 14 days of work. Which is actually very reasonable. Same suit of chainmail made by adding +10 to the DC and just making the check would take a little over 5 days. Again I think this is spot on. I looked around the web at SCA sites and armorsmithing sites and if pressed a good armor smith can make a suit of chain in 4 days of work, but usually takes a couple weeks for an average person.
Platemail using minimum DC and check would take 97 days to make, with 6 day work week it would take 16 weeks.
Bump the DC by 10 and just make the check it would take 42 days or 7 weeks.
Those sound very reasonable and along the lines of reality.
Though you add in special materials and it does fall apart. Taking the 7 week job to make regular platemail into a 48 week job, almost 7 times longer!
Personally, I prefer this solution for odd materials.
Use the base price + Masterwork price as the price to determine the time taken to craft (1000gp from our halfplate example above).
Multiply the price as indicated on the special material chart below :
Alchemical Silver : x 1.1
Cold Iron : x 1.25
Darkwood : x 1.5
Dragonhide : x 1.5
Mithral : x 2
Adamantine : x 4
So, for the OP's example, you'd need to get 1,000gp (Half-plate + MW) x 2 (Mithral) = 2,000gp worth of crafting. 28 x 30 = 840 sp per week, or 84 gp. 2,000/84 = 23.8, or about 24 weeks. In other words, 6 months. This seems pretty decent for crafting half-plate out of a hard to work with metal.
If they need to speed it up, consider adding bonuses to the rolls. MW Tools, Assistants (+2 for 1, +4 for 2, +6 for 4, etc). There are feats to help with it too, such as Skill Focus (Craft).
To make armor by hand can take months of work depending on the tools at hand.
With modern tools you can create plate mail in a few days, but without modern tools it can take months to a year depending on how detailed the armor.
In the fantasy realm I am sure a Master Craftsmith would have access to spells, magic items, etc. to help speed up the process of making items.
If we look at a suit of chainmail DC 16 and making the minimum check (person just able to perform the task) it would take 14 days of work. Which is actually very reasonable. Same suit of chainmail made by adding +10 to the DC and just making the check would take a little over 5 days. Again I think this is spot on. I looked around the web at SCA sites and armorsmithing sites and if pressed a good armor smith can make a suit of chain in 4 days of work, but usually takes a couple weeks for an average person.
Platemail using minimum DC and check would take 97 days to make, with 6 day work week it would take 16 weeks.
Bump the DC by 10 and just make the check it would take 42 days or 7 weeks.Those sound very reasonable and along the lines of reality.
Though you add in special materials and it does fall apart. Taking the 7 week job to make regular platemail into a 48 week job, almost 7 times longer!
Not sure where you are getting your math from, but making a normal (non masterwork) suit of chainmail takes almost 6 weeks. That’s using the minimum check for the DC 16 (16 x 16=256 a week). A suit of chainmail in silver is 1500. So, 1500 divided by 256 is a total of 5.8 weeks.
And your other example, the cheapest suit of plate mail (half-plate), it would take 20 weeks. DC 17 multiplied by the minimum check of 17 equals 289. Then 6000 (amount of silver for half-plate) divided by 289 equals 20.7 weeks.
This is just way too long.
Now yes, this is without the +10 DC to shorten the crafting times, but it still would be unreasonable. Also, it’s one thing to be realistic about crafting and another to viable for the game.
In general crafting highlights the intrinsic problems of the D&D economy. While craft actually simulates low-level NPC crafting pretty well it simply doesn't handle the rapidly scaling prices of high-end items (mainly because those high prices are set as a game balance construct rather than an economic system model).
In a purely RAW campaign that's why crafting via spells is a critical tool (beyond the narrative coolness of being able to whip something complex up in a short period of time). However spells being a class exclusive thing not everyone is going to be content with the casters being the optimal crafters so it's probably good if you grab some sort of optional system if PC crafting of mundane items is going to be a major feature of your game.
Short of rewriting the cost structure for the base-line economy I think a multiplier to the base cost for unusual materials is probably a better way to handle it than a fixed +x GP surcharge because high end items simply become ridiculous to craft even with massive downtime available and/or magical crafting assistance.
Being able to build armor overnight with a spell is cool, but if you are a mundane crafter being forced to spend years crafting a single suit of armor is pretty ridiculous and not conducive to gameplay.
...Not sure where you are getting your math from, but making a normal (non masterwork) suit of chainmail takes almost 6 weeks...
Oh thanks, I did not notice a mistaken in my spreadsheet. Should have done more by hand to verfiy the sheet. I made an excel sheet to do the calculations for me with an without Master Alchemist.
My error was I was using the 1/3 of cost instead of the full cost to calculate time to craft.
Thanks again for catching the error.
The amount of time required to craft expensive items is, actually, irrelevant. If you want your players to be able to do that, then give them the down time to accomplish it. If you don't, then don't.
If your players are fully invested in their characters and the game setting, then having a month, season, or even years between adventures gives them time to do all the non-adventuring stuff that players enjoy, i.e. politics, building keeps/bases, pursuing romantic interest, starting families, advancing in guild hierarchies, exploring the local setting, etc. It is not, afterall, like you have to say, "We'll have the next session in 2014, 'cause the dwarf wants to make a suit of Mithral platemail."
Not to mention that extensive downtime allows the characters to see the effect that they are having on the game world (if any), as well as preventing 19 year old arch-magi.
In general crafting highlights the intrinsic problems of the D&D economy. While craft actually simulates low-level NPC crafting pretty well it simply doesn't handle the rapidly scaling prices of high-end items....
The Craft rules don't even do that because the Craft rules are silly, and they have been since 3.0. How they've managed to stay silly through 3.5 and into PF is at least slightly baffling. Here's my introduction to the three major problems inherent in the silliness of the current Craft rules:
1. Erlic wants to Craft a one-pound silver ball. His brother Rynook wants to Craft a one-pound gold ball. A one-pound ball of silver is worth one-tenth as much as a pound of gold. Even though Erlic and Rynook work on pretty much the same project -- melting metal and pouring it into a mold -- Rynook must spend much longer on his one-pound ball simply because it's made of gold.
2. Erlic next wants to Craft some full plate. Full plate costs 15,000 silver pieces and faces an armorsmithing DC of 19. Erlic has Craft (armorsmithing) +8. Let's be unrealistic and say that he rolls a 20 for each and every Craft check. 28 times 19 equals 532, which means it'll take Erlic 28 weeks to finish his full plate. So much for having time to adventure.
3. Erlic and Rynook want to see who can craft an item first. Erlic decides to make a high-quality box (value 20 silver pieces, Craft DC 15). Rynook wants to make a crowbar (value 20 silver pieces, Craft DC 10). The brothers have only a +1 bonus for their checks as they are both untrained when making these particular items. Again, let's assume they both roll nothing but 20s. Here are the contest's results:
* Erlic: 21 times 15 equals 315, which is 15.75 times higher than the box's cost.
* Rynook: 21 times 10 equals 210, which is 10.5 times higher than the crowbar's cost.
* The Winner: Erlic, despite the fact he is making the more complicated item.
The Craft rules as they stand, IMO, can't be fixed with feats, which there are already too many of to begin with (again, IMO). Instead, the rules need to be discarded and rebuilt.
The amount of time required to craft expensive items is, actually, irrelevant. If you want your players to be able to do that, then give them the down time to accomplish it. If you don't, then don't.
If your players are fully invested in their characters and the game setting, then having a month, season, or even years between adventures gives them time to do all the non-adventuring stuff that players enjoy, i.e. politics, building keeps/bases, pursuing romantic interest, starting families, advancing in guild hierarchies, exploring the local setting, etc. It is not, afterall, like you have to say, "We'll have the next session in 2014, 'cause the dwarf wants to make a suit of Mithral platemail."
Not to mention that extensive downtime allows the characters to see the effect that they are having on the game world (if any), as well as preventing 19 year old arch-magi.
If that works for you, that is great. But you shouldn’t have to take extensive downtime (years) to craft a suit of armor, even if it is made of Mithral or Adamantium.
Our DM does advance time in our world. Each session is worth a month time. How quickly we finish our 'adventure' during that month depends on much downtime we have. Now yes, he has always said we have the option to take off more time if we wish, but as I said above, to take off over a year just to craft an expensive piece of armor/weapon is silly.
Where I don’t see it unreasonable to take off a month or two of just downtime, taking off a year or more is extreme. Our campaigns usually have a lot going on and to take off that long can really affect the campaign storyline in big ways. Cutting off avenues where we could have gone, but now can’t because we decided to craft for a couple of years.
I agree, downtime is a good thing sometimes, but as I said above, you shouldn’t have to take years off your campaign just to concentrate only on crafting one item.
How would you fix them?
Are there any 3rd party D20 books that address these problems?
Funny you should ask: Making Craft Work. :)
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How would you fix them?
Are there any 3rd party D20 books that address these problems?
Funny you should ask: Making Craft Work. :)
You have officially made my day. One for the unabashed self promotion, and two because I forgot you wrote material yourself. :)
You have officially made my day. One for the unabashed self promotion, and two because I forgot you wrote material yourself. :)How would you fix them?
Are there any 3rd party D20 books that address these problems?
Funny you should ask: Making Craft Work. :)
It's actually pretty good, I bought it awhile back. I'm seriously considering using it when I start running PF again.
How would you fix them?
Are there any 3rd party D20 books that address these problems?
Funny you should ask: Making Craft Work. :)
+1
I love "Making Craft Work". The beauty is in simplicity. It's 8 pages long, counting the cover, table of contents, credits, examples of why the current system is bull, but the craft system presented is only 2 pages long and keeps the same skills as the core material. It's worth every penny of the 99 cents it will cost you to buy.
I've already bought it and skimmed it. Spes Magna has earned my respect. There were a couple other mini-books I was eying.
Glad I could rise to the challenge. Thanks, all, for the kinds words. :)