I'm still psyched about this compilation/complete ToH hardcover. (And as a minor thread-jack...) I haven't purchased the Slumbering Tsar stuff at all (yet) and was wondering, if I did so (if not now... soon) am I still eligible for the hardcover when Slumbering Tsar is complete? (/end thread-jack)
Oh... and waaay to late to do anything about it (having just noticed this myself) but I see Greg must have edited his post to correct the date portion of his announcement.
[genie from Aladdin]Well, I feel sheepish. Okay Greg, you baaad boy... no more freebies. ;)
Yep, you can still subscribe to the whole thing (to include the HC at the end) on the FGG website.
And...I'm tricksy like that. ;-)
(I had actually cut and pasted Bill's announcement knowing that it the wrong year, but you beat me to the punch before I could hit the edit button to go back in and fix it.)
Hi Greg,
Thanks for the info. (I listed the Slumbering Tsar PDFs here on Paizo, but I gather to subscribe and be eligible for the HC I need to get them at FGG site? Buying the PDFs from Paizo doesn't count I take it)? [/end 2nd thread-jack]
Hi Greg,
Thanks for the info. (I listed the Slumbering Tsar PDFs here on Paizo, but I gather to subscribe and be eligible for the HC I need to get them at FGG site? Buying the PDFs from Paizo doesn't count I take it)? [/end 2nd thread-jack]
As I understand things, the only way to subscribe to the Hardcover of Slumbering Tsar is to go directly to Frog God's website. Here is the link.
Colour is irrelevant to me (I like the old-school feel of black and white and, in any case, I want it not to be insanely expensive).
I would also really like to be able to pre-order. If pre-orders are opened, I'll commit immediately.
As would I.
I think a preorder option is a really excellent idea.For Slumbering Tsar, it helped the folks at Frog God understand just how popular this was going to be and ended up selling more than they perhaps thought they might.
As I understand things, the only way to subscribe to the Hardcover of Slumbering Tsar is to go directly to Frog God's website. Here is the link.Hi Greg,
Thanks for the info. (I listed the Slumbering Tsar PDFs here on Paizo, but I gather to subscribe and be eligible for the HC I need to get them at FGG site? Buying the PDFs from Paizo doesn't count I take it)? [/end 2nd thread-jack]
Thanks D S. That's what I thought too. (And I'm glad you gave me a link, I had tried getting "there" before, and couldn't seem to find the site).
You. Are. Awesome!
Regards,
Dean
PS: ToH Complete! Yes... still AWESOME!!! (Keeping the thread on track). ;)
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This thread prompted me to finally order the Slumbering Tsar premium subscription. Reading the pdfs and this thing looks insane and brutal. Mr. Vaughan is a madman!
I would love to get a complete ToH set for PFRPG. I already own all the three of the physical books and pdf of the revised ToH and would still consider an updated series of books a good buy.
[sidetrack]Just saw the posting for the Ultimate Book of Adventure Design (UBAD) and I have to say if it's anything like the "Mother" series of books I will be very pleased as these books of tables have done nothing but help improve my game and fuel my imagination.[/sidetrack]
[sidetrack]Just saw the posting for the Ultimate Book of Adventure Design (UBAD) and I have to say if it's anything like the "Mother" series of books I will be very pleased as these books of tables have done nothing but help improve my game and fuel my imagination.[/sidetrack]
Where's this?
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"Next up are Jungle Ruins, Northland Saga Book 1, Hex Crawl Classics Book 1 and the Ultimate Book of Adventure Design. The UBAD (as we call it) is a 225 page+ resource book for gaming on the fly or pre-planning adventures. If you are old enough to remember the 1e DMG, you will remember with fondness the tables in the back that detailed how to write and populate a dungeon. This book takes it further, in that it provides literally thousands of items, locations and features for the DM to use during play. Want a fountain in a room? No problem...roll 1d100, and the fountain is described (is it magical, non-magical, secret passage underneath, what does it look like etc.). This brings to adventure design what the Mother of All Treasure Tables and Mother of All Encounter tables did for players in years past."
"Next up are Jungle Ruins, Northland Saga Book 1, Hex Crawl Classics Book 1 and the Ultimate Book of Adventure Design. The UBAD (as we call it) is a 225 page+ resource book for gaming on the fly or pre-planning adventures. If you are old enough to remember the 1e DMG, you will remember with fondness the tables in the back that detailed how to write and populate a dungeon. This book takes it further, in that it provides literally thousands of items, locations and features for the DM to use during play. Want a fountain in a room? No problem...roll 1d100, and the fountain is described (is it magical, non-magical, secret passage underneath, what does it look like etc.). This brings to adventure design what the Mother of All Treasure Tables and Mother of All Encounter tables did for players in years past."
Ah, so it's something similar to Toolbox and Ultimate Toolbox that appeared through AEG, right?
Keep it black and white, please!
Color is great and all, but black and white art has it's own style, and it's a gigantic shame that there's not more of it out there.
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Ah, so it's something similar to Toolbox and Ultimate Toolbox that appeared through AEG, right?"Next up are Jungle Ruins, Northland Saga Book 1, Hex Crawl Classics Book 1 and the Ultimate Book of Adventure Design. The UBAD (as we call it) is a 225 page+ resource book for gaming on the fly or pre-planning adventures. If you are old enough to remember the 1e DMG, you will remember with fondness the tables in the back that detailed how to write and populate a dungeon. This book takes it further, in that it provides literally thousands of items, locations and features for the DM to use during play. Want a fountain in a room? No problem...roll 1d100, and the fountain is described (is it magical, non-magical, secret passage underneath, what does it look like etc.). This brings to adventure design what the Mother of All Treasure Tables and Mother of All Encounter tables did for players in years past."
I have the AEG Toolbox, and yeah sounds like it - maybe with more depth on the table combos (sub-tables, etc).
I'm looking forward to it.I know people may not get much mileage out of a book of tables and I can understand that. For me it just helps if I don't have something with a great deal of detail worked out ahead of time and sometimes just rolling one or two facets of an otherwise nondescript item/area/feature spurs my imagination and gets some additional ideas going.
Mother of all Treasure Tables is an invaluable tool for detailing otherwise mundane treasures - and getting the imagination flowing. Works for any edition of D&D since all the items listed are mundane (yet handled with tremendous thought).
Dotting so I don't lose this thread.
ps. Can I purchase this at Paizo?
pps. There goes my discretionary spending for six months.....
-- david
Papa.DRB
I really like the black and white art...it really goes with the old-school design. Most of the art is really good too!
I'll def be getting this one! Don't care about the price!
Silver Crescent Publishing
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This I am very disappointed in, I understand why you would do this, so you can keep the production cost down, But I would Much rather you get new Art in Color and print the books in Color. I would pay for it.
This is a big reason I keep away from 3PP products, because they go so cheap on art, have terrible art, or go B&W a lot. When I see a book in B&W I literally cringe, and I have not bought books due to that or because of terrible art. One thing I love about Paizo their books looks so beautiful and they don't go cheap on the production on them.
I just wanted to point out that printing in color is incredibly expensive. Printing a 250 page hardcover book in black and white pushes my production costs up enough as it is. Most 3PP (myself included) can't afford to print near the volume of the heavy hitters like wizards or Paizo. They get huge volume discounts, and a more reliable purchase/fan base. Many 3PP (again myself included) are using our own personal funds to finance our work and publications. I have almost all of the artwork for the Realms of Twilight Campaign Setting book in color but I can't afford to print it in the book that way. I intend to possibily do an art book at a later date with color images, perhaps for Gencon, but nothing solid yet.
The point it, just because it isn't in color doesn't mean it isn't good. Though I can understand your hesitation. Color is much prettier to look at.
That being said, I'm excited about this book. I tried to get a hold of the original Tome of Horrors and didn't have much luck at the time. I guess I'll just have to wait until this summer to add it to my collection.
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I just wanted to point out that printing in color is incredibly expensive. Printing a 250 page hardcover book in black and white pushes my production costs up enough as it is. Most 3PP (myself included) can't afford to print near the volume of the heavy hitters like wizards or Paizo.
And this is a reason I stay away from many 3pp products, because they just don't have the money to make the kind of product I like.
Art for me is important, it is not the end all, but it is important.
I know a lot of people like the "old school" look, but I hate it, anything that looks like my 5 year old nephew drew just turns me off to the product.
That said, looking back at some of the art from the original ToHs, though they where black and white, they did not have that "Old School" style, which is a plus.
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Silver Crescent Publishing
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And this is a reason I stay away from many 3pp products, because they just don't have the money to make the kind of product I like.
Art for me is important, it is not the end all, but it is important.
I know a lot of people like the "old school" look, but I hate it, anything that looks like my 5 year old nephew drew just turns me off to the product.
That said, looking back at some of the art from the original ToHs, though they where black and white, they did not have that "Old School" style, which is a plus.
I understand where you're coming from. Good artwork can sometimes be hard to find. And it definitely looks better in color than black and white. I don't want this to turn into an advertisement, so I'll suffice to say that not all black and white artwork is line drawings or shaded work. Some of it is just as high quality, just printed in B&W due to cost.
I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see such a book coming to market for much under $100.
I hope I'm wrong.
If I'm right, I kinda hope they split this up into 2 books.
Dragonmoon - Everyone is entitled to an opinion, of course, but I'm just wondering why grayscale illustrations (B&W art that was meant to be B&W) is an automatic bad thing in your eyes.
I'm not trying to be snarky here, honest, but I wouldn't call that "bad" in any way and if Mr. Escher had done it in color it would be a completely different piece to me. It also illustrates that B&W white art needn't look like a 5-year-old drew it.
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Dragonmoon - Everyone is entitled to an opinion, of course, but I'm just wondering why grayscale illustrations (B&W art that was meant to be B&W) is an automatic bad thing in your eyes.
I'm not trying to be snarky here, honest, but I wouldn't call that "bad" in any way and if Mr. Escher had done it in color it would be a completely different piece to me. It also illustrates that B&W white art needn't look like a 5-year-old drew it.
what I meant by "old School" B&W is this or this, I am not a fan of that "Old School" art, be it Color or B&W.
For those concerned with the quality of black and white art in Frog God products, I highly recommend checking out the first installment of the Slumbering Tsar. The pdf is cheap and well worth a look at the actual art commissioned to be in their products.
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For those concerned with the quality of black and white art in Frog God products, I highly recommend checking out the first installment of the Slumbering Tsar. The pdf is cheap and well worth a look at the actual art commissioned to be in their products.
The art in those books are ok, Though I am not a fan of the Maps.
That said, Is it the same artists as the ToH books? they are reusing the art from those books, which may not be the same artists they use for Slumbering Tsar.
For those concerned with the quality of black and white art in Frog God products, I highly recommend checking out the first installment of the Slumbering Tsar. The pdf is cheap and well worth a look at the actual art commissioned to be in their products.The art in those books are ok, Though I am not a fan of the Maps.
That said, Is it the same artists as the ToH books? they are reusing the art from those books, which may not be the same artists they use for Slumbering Tsar.
That is a very good question; which reminds me, I need to crack open my old ToH and look at the art there.
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One other thing. I like Color art that is printed in B&W even less! Art drawn to be seen in B&W is one thing, but when you print a book that has Color art, in B&W you ruin it!
As an example The Cthulhu Tech book was first printed by Mongoose Publishing in B&W and I thought it looked terrible because of that, But later on it was reprinted by a different publisher in Color, the book looked 100% better! I bought the book again because of that.
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what I meant by "old School" B&W is this or this, I am not a fan of that "Old School" art, be it Color or B&W.Dragonmoon - Everyone is entitled to an opinion, of course, but I'm just wondering why grayscale illustrations (B&W art that was meant to be B&W) is an automatic bad thing in your eyes.
I'm not trying to be snarky here, honest, but I wouldn't call that "bad" in any way and if Mr. Escher had done it in color it would be a completely different piece to me. It also illustrates that B&W white art needn't look like a 5-year-old drew it.
The troll picture I could give or take. But what's not to like about the dragon picture, except maybe the wings are a bit smallish? To each their own I guess. :)
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1. The Tome of Horrors art is very good.
2. This book is going to be ~1000 pages, with ~750 monsters, each with an accompanying piece of art.
3. New art is expensive. New color art is even more expensive.
4. New color art would make this ridiculously expensive. 95% of the people complaining about B&W art would NOT pay $250 for this, which is my wild guesstimate for what new color art would make this cost. Hell, even with the pre-existing art, it's gonna be doing good to stay under $100.
Given those facts, it seems to me that FGG is making the only reasonable decision regarding the art.
Now then, lairs and other bonus stuff in the S&W version? Me like! Do want!
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4. New color art would make this ridiculously expensive. 95% of the people complaining about B&W art would NOT pay $250 for this, which is my wild guesstimate for what new color art would make this cost.
Since I am the only one complaining about it, I can say 100% of people complaining about it *So Far* would pay that much. ;)
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Right now, I am more leaning towards a Limited Edition *Like tsathogga talked about* but with a Color Layout with most art re used and maybe some new Color art added.
I can't see how it makes good financial sense to pay $37,500 dollars for art (very conservative estimate pricing each piece at $50 bucks a pop) so that you can sell a small limited run of books. Even saying you managed to sell 100 copies of this theoritical limited run you are looking at $500 a book just to break even, especially when you consider small print runs cost more money. From 100 customers you would need $375 each just to pay for art. It would be much more economically feasible to plan on selling 1000 copies so that you are only charging $37.50 per customer for art and you have a smaller print cost.
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Right now, I am more leaning towards a Limited Edition *Like tsathogga talked about* but with a Color Layout with most art re used and maybe some new Color art added.I can't see how it makes good financial sense to pay $37,500 dollars for art (very conservative estimate pricing each piece at $50 bucks a pop) so that you can sell a small limited run of books. Even saying you managed to sell 100 copies of this theoritical limited run you are looking at $500 a book just to break even, especially when you consider small print runs cost more money. From 100 customers you would need $375 each just to pay for art. It would be much more economically feasible to plan on selling 1000 copies so that you are only charging $37.50 per customer for art and you have a smaller print cost.
Did you not read what I Wrote? I will make it clearer, I said keep most of the old art, maybe replace some of the art with new Color art, but do the interior Layout in Color, for the limited edition. I did not say replace all the art with new Color art...
I will buy this book. A few duplicate monster stats aren't a big deal. In fact, I don't mind at all having variant stats for critters. Makes it even easier to add variety to encounters.
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Did you not read what I Wrote? I will make it clearer, I said keep most of the old art, maybe replace some of the art with new Color art, but do the interior Layout in Color, for the limited edition. I did not say replace all the art with new Color art...Right now, I am more leaning towards a Limited Edition *Like tsathogga talked about* but with a Color Layout with most art re used and maybe some new Color art added.I can't see how it makes good financial sense to pay $37,500 dollars for art (very conservative estimate pricing each piece at $50 bucks a pop) so that you can sell a small limited run of books. Even saying you managed to sell 100 copies of this theoritical limited run you are looking at $500 a book just to break even, especially when you consider small print runs cost more money. From 100 customers you would need $375 each just to pay for art. It would be much more economically feasible to plan on selling 1000 copies so that you are only charging $37.50 per customer for art and you have a smaller print cost.
I guess I did misunderstand, but personally I prefer a book to be either color or black and white. Having some sort of weird hybrid at a much higher price is even less appealing.
neeeeeed!
what I meant by "old School" B&W is ... I am not a fan of that "Old School" art, be it Color or B&W.
I've been following this thread since the beginning waiting to pipe in. Dragnmoon, you're not alone. I won't buy this book if I don't like the art overall. Art is very important to me. That said, I need to borrow my friend's copy of the TOH 1 to refresh my memory on how the art looks like.
While I too prefer color art in general, if it's good b&w art, that's fine w/ me. Why I linked to this particular post of yours is funny though. I liked both of those pictures (Erol Otus stuff gets my nostalgia blood running) LOL!
As far as more modern b&w art, what do think about the art in the 3.0/3.5 Book of Fiends by Green Ronin, for example (sorry, no linkage)? It ranges from great (Sam Wood!--my favorite 3.0/3.5 D&D artist; Brom--nuff said) to very good (James Ryman, Kevin Crossley, Raven Mimura) on down. If TOH uses too much of some artists in here I don't care for (Tom Baxa, "MacBin"--though some of his stuff is decent), then that might tip the balance.
I understand the price point they're trying for here, so I'm not realistically looking for new, color art replacements. But it'll be wait and see for me on which artists they used in the TOH books, and whether I like the majority of it or not.
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what I meant by "old School" B&W is this or this, I am not a fan of that "Old School" art, be it Color or B&W.
Normally I don't care about art at all -- I just want my book cheaper -- but art like the stuff you linked would make me happy to pay more for it. I don't have any attachment to the modern rpg art at all, but something that had the old-school feel would be a huge plus for me, given that I have to expect art of some sort.
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Normally I don't care about art at all -- I just want my book cheaper -- but art like the stuff you linked would make me happy to pay more for it. I don't have any attachment to the modern rpg art at all, but something that had the old-school feel would be a huge plus for me, given that I have to expect art of some sort.
Art like that, would be a No buy, no matter how good the book was. That is how much I hate the "Old School" look.
This will definitively be on my list of "must buy" books for 2011.
Also, once you have this tome in your hands, remember to announce the words "Klaatu barada nikto" in a loud, clear voice before opening.
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Art like that, would be a No buy, no matter how good the book was. That is how much I hate the "Old School" look.
Wow...
I just can't get my brain-box wrapped around this concept. I mean, I may roll my eyes at the cheesy art of some RPG products (color or black & white). But for me, I play RPG's for the content (i.e. the rules and flavor), not the art. Sure the art helps in the visualization of things for me, but it's certainly not the be-all-end-all of the game...
I just can't help but think that you have let your bias allow you to miss out on some truly great RPG products just because you did not like the art used...
Obviously, YMMV...
Game on...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
Art like that, would be a No buy, no matter how good the book was. That is how much I hate the "Old School" look.Wow...
I just can't get my brain-box wrapped around this concept. I mean, I may roll my eyes at the cheesy art of some RPG products (color or black & white). But for me, I play RPG's for the content (i.e. the rules and flavor), not the art. Sure the art helps in the visualization of things for me, but it's certainly not the be-all-end-all of the game...
I just can't help but think that you have let your bias allow you to miss out on some truly great RPG products just because you did not like the art used...
Obviously, YMMV...
Game on...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
You pretty much echoed my thoughts... good thing they didn't look at the original game (OD&D). I started with it in 1974. The artwork was horrible, but the contents opened a whole new world up.
*edit* And I'll be picking this up for both PFRPG and S&W. The PFRPG for me and the S&W for my brother who's campaign is a OE / 1E game. The original 3.x ToH is a favorite of mine.
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Right now, I am more leaning towards a Limited Edition *Like tsathogga talked about* but with a Color Layout with most art re used and maybe some new Color art added.Sorry, but could you point me toward this thread? I missed him talking about a limited edition.
I forget where he said it now, but if I recall it would just be a leather cover and he said something about making it look like the Necronomicon, which made my think of Army of Darkness but not sure thats what he had in mind. :)
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I forget where he said it now, but if I recall it would just be a leather cover and he said something about making it look like the Necronomicon, which made my think of Army of Darkness but not sure thats what he had in mind. :)Right now, I am more leaning towards a Limited Edition *Like tsathogga talked about* but with a Color Layout with most art re used and maybe some new Color art added.Sorry, but could you point me toward this thread? I missed him talking about a limited edition.
Hmm...if that does come to pass, it leaves me with a puzzling question...which version do I get the limited edition for, and which version to I just get the regular edition. Hmmm....
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Here is the comment that I found about it.
I wanted it all in one books for serious "thud" factor. I can also stitch bind it this way for durability. I may do some sort of special cover (leather or faux leather). Still looking at options and price. i want this thing to be "Necronomican" scary like the book in the Evil Dead series.The DM should be able to say "This is my Boom Stick".
I guess I was wrong, he did mention the Evil Dead series. :)
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Here is the comment that I found about it.
I wanted it all in one books for serious "thud" factor. I can also stitch bind it this way for durability. I may do some sort of special cover (leather or faux leather). Still looking at options and price. i want this thing to be "Necronomican" scary like the book in the Evil Dead series.The DM should be able to say "This is my Boom Stick".I guess I was wrong, he did mention the Evil Dead series. :)
Ah, from that comment I'm not sure if he meant that that's what ALL of them would be like, or if that would be a special limited edition.