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To the best of my knowledge, there is not an "official ruling" to refer you to and I would not recommend holding out for one.
A fully RAWful Evil reading could say "yes, the only requirement is that you be wielding the Large weapon".
The Intent of the ability is obviously "No, this ability exists to give extra damage when using the large weapon".
The rules quote that you're mostly likely to get is from CRB page 444:
Ambiguous Rules
Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.
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I believe Conan still holds the title of biggest barbarian, with biggest defined here as gross box office (excluding budget).
As for the rest of the OP, it’s a lot of extraneous irrelevancies (even the thread title had excessive word count).
And no, Paizo does not officially comment on box office totals.
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Soo many DM's get this wrong it drives me crazy
Well the cool thing here is, if you're the GM, you can absolutely have your Barbarian PCs operate this way. Since you see it as an "ambiguous rule", you're the one who gets to decide what works for your table.
Just like any other GM gets to do the same for theirs. Nobody's "getting it wrong". It's just one of those things that not everyone will agree upon. And so with that in mind, if you're in a situation where you might come across multiple GMs (say, for a Society character), it would be safest to adopt a conservative approach when building your character, so you're not stuck playing something "broken" when you have a GM who disagrees with you.
IF possible I'm really hoping for any official ruling on this or quote from Paizo.
Soo many DM's get this wrong it drives me crazy, I want a solid answer, please.
Under Barbarian instinct (Giant)
When wielding such a weapon in combat, increase your additional damage from Rage from 2 to 6,Does that mean if I hold a one-handed Large weapon, and a Shield boss or just an empty off-hand, and I hit with anything besides the large weapon, do I add the 6 rage damage to the fist/shield boss attack?
IF possible I'm really hoping for any official ruling on this or quote from Paizo.
3 things:
1. Looking ONLY at the instinct ability "Titan Mauler" it appears as if you're correct. And for what it's worth it doesn't really hurt anything from a balance perspective, either, since you still get clumsy 1 from simply wielding the weapon anyway.2. Believe it or not, 1 is kind of irrelevant. The rules are there as guidelines to structure a world in which everyone (The GM, you, and the other players) can have fun.
3. I hate to use this as evidence, because the rules often forget this, but I swear I have something to back it up in a second, so keep reading. With that out of the way: "wielding" isn't capitalized in the quoted sentence, and it's also somewhat altered by the proceeding words saying "when wielding such a weapon in combat". I think it's reasonable, at the very least, to count "wielding in combat" as being used for the attack and not just being wielded in a separate hand. Now for that evidence I was talking about: At level 7 when you get your specialization ability it no longer uses the word "wield" at all, but rather says that you "Increase the damage from Rage when using a larger weapon from 6 to 10; if you have greater weapon specialization, increase it from 10 to 18." Using is not defined anywhere (to my knowledge) and is thus, by definition, an ambiguous rule.
P.S.
That's not to say this should inherently not be allowed either. A GM is well within their rights to allow it. However, the attitude of 'my GM gets this wrong. I want to point them to something to show them that they're wrong and get the ruling overturned' isn't a great default attitude to have based on a single word in a paragraph describing an ability.
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Thankfully, the Giant Instinct also gives you :
Specialization Ability
7th
Increase the damage from Rage when using a larger weapon from 6 to 10.
So, you not only need to wield the bigger weapon, but also to use it (aka attack with it).
So, by RAW, the increased damage from 2 to 6 only applies to the bigger weapon.
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3. I hate to use this as evidence, because the rules often forget this, but I swear I have something to back it up in a second, so keep reading. With that out of the way: "wielding" isn't capitalized in the quoted sentence,[...]
Only direct actions, feats, and actively managed resources (Bulk, Focus Points, etc.) are capitalized in running text, not all game terms. Class names, class features, monster abilities, monster names, conditions, etc. are not capitalized in running text except at the start of a sentence, since otherwise it would make things tricky to read and undermine the functionality of capitalizing important key terms to begin with.
A kind of quick and dirty way to know which is appropriate is that if you can say "I am XX (confused, wielding, stupefied, etc.)" then it won't be capitalized. If you can say "I XX (Strike, Leap, Demoralize, Power Attack)" then it's probably capitalized. Similarly, "I spend a Focus Point" and "I drop a unit of Bulk" are correct, but since your focus pool isn't directly managed and is just a term for your collective Focus Points, it is not capitalized.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Fair enough. That was the weakest part of my argument anyway, and the point was simply that it's not automatically, unequivocally, and no matter what else is said using the game's definition of "wielding".
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Reasons to let it work: Fewer numbers to remember during combat, not a huge power boost, already taking the clumsy penalty
Reasons to not let it work: Removes one of the only ways Large weapons matter, doesn't make intuitive sense, better to play it safe
Personally I would say you get the bonus rage damage only with the Large weapon, since I value giving incentive to actually use the Large item that is your character's whole "thing".
Nothing stops you from getting a large shield boss or a large gauntlet.
PF2e is sort of based on letting gamemasters make common sense decisions rather than basing rules on "RAW."
Which I tend to appreciate as it leads to much less of players wielding rules as a cudgel against the GM to allow some frankly absurd nonsense to occur due to a technicality.
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Soo many DM's get this wrong it drives me crazy, I want a solid answer, please.
Under Barbarian instinct (Giant)
When wielding such a weapon in combat, increase your additional damage from Rage from 2 to 6,Does that mean if I hold a one-handed Large weapon, and a Shield boss or just an empty off-hand, and I hit with anything besides the large weapon, do I add the 6 rage damage to the fist/shield boss attack?
IF possible I'm really hoping for any official ruling on this or quote from Paizo.
Sorry but you are in the wrong game system for solid answers. Ouch that hurts to say. There is a lot of natural language in PF2, and GMs are supposed to interpret it. Further Paizo are almost totally silent on anything ambiguous in the rules preferring to allow everyone to work it out themselves.
Technically the rules are saying as long as you are "wielding" or "using" the over sized weapon that the full rage damage applies.
Out of game language example: You can be "using" a crowbar in one hand and shoot someone with a pistol from your other hand. The term "use" or "wield" are both open. Unlike if they had used the term "strike" with a weapon. Which they do do in other places.
I would definitely argue that you can wield or use an oversize weapon while actually striking with something else. So as a GM I would give you the extra damage even when you strike with a head butt or your fist.
Note that your Barbarian is often enlarged in Giant Stature form, so I see this as right and correct, simple natural langauge and RAW. I also see this as just encouraging good role playing.
However there is nothing to stop the GM from taking the other position. That the oversized weapon is the key to your power and insisting that that is what counts. IMHO the language does not require it, but I can see how they could read it that way. There some sense in that position. So you are going to run into GMs who disagree and just have to suck it up and move on.
My advice:
Get yourself an oversized secondary weapon, an oversized helmet, and/or oversized gauntlet to go with your oversized main weapon. Most GMs will see it as just a bit of flavour, and the penalty is just clumsy 1. That is nothing extra. Technically then the GM has nothing to argue about when you want to do a head butt or a offhanded smash with them. Because you are still using an oversized weapon.
Problem solved.
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I'm not sure why this would ever matter.
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Under Barbarian instinct (Giant)
When wielding such a weapon in combat, increase your additional damage from Rage from 2 to 6,Does that mean if I hold a one-handed Large weapon, and a Shield boss or just an empty off-hand, and I hit with anything besides the large weapon, do I add the 6 rage damage to the fist/shield boss attack?
IF possible I'm really hoping for any official ruling on this or quote from Paizo.
So, you can wield an oversized Gauntlet, and you get full Giant Barbarian damage on all your attacks.
Grab Alchemist Dedication, Feral Mutagen and drink a Bestial Mutagen. d12 Deadly d10 weapon + d10 Deadly d10 Agile weapon.Grab Monk Dedication and then Flurry of Blows, and you now have the highest damage dealing one-action option in the whole game.
You also have -4 in AC!
Definitely not something I ever want to see around my table. So big no for me.
Soo many DM's get this wrong it drives me crazy, I want a solid answer, please.
Under Barbarian instinct (Giant)
When wielding such a weapon in combat, increase your additional damage from Rage from 2 to 6,Does that mean if I hold a one-handed Large weapon, and a Shield boss or just an empty off-hand, and I hit with anything besides the large weapon, do I add the 6 rage damage to the fist/shield boss attack?
IF possible I'm really hoping for any official ruling on this or quote from Paizo.
Technically, that seems to be the case, though I doubt it was the intent. Furthermore, the Specialization ability clearly specifies that the damage bonus is only with the Large weapon. It's not definite proof (since under certain interpretations you could still deal +6 with your shield boss and +10 with your large weapon), but it does kind of hint at the likely intent behind the damage bonuses I think.
I certainly don't find the idea that when you wield a bigger weapon your headbutts get stronger intuitive.
I certainly don't find the idea that when you wield a bigger weapon your headbutts get stronger intuitive.
You use the weight of the large weapon as a counterbalance or similar mechanism to propel your forehead forward much faster and harder perhaps? LOL.
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I certainly don't find the idea that when you wield a bigger weapon your headbutts get stronger intuitive.
If we're just talking about theme and not RAW, then I could see it going the other way. After all, even martial classes have somewhat mystical stuff going on at times, and the barbarian's rage is no different. If a punch can get fire damage from dragon instinct, why couldn't it gain extra weight and force behind it by channeling the strength of a giant as long as you're wielding an appropriate weapon?
But again, that's purely from a flavor perspective, and even then it's a toss-up. I'm of the opinion that it's perfectly reasonable for a GM to decide either way, and honestly it really doesn't change that much anyway.
Couldn't you do this with Dragon Instinct instead and get basically the same effect, but with 2 less Rage damage?
Yes but it is still more 2 more damage, and disadvantages can be just fun to play.
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Well, my point is more that disallowing it to work with Giant Instinct on the specific grounds that it'd be too powerful (which I believe was the point of the post I was replying to) doesn't make too much sense, considering there's an alternative that's about as powerful and completely legal.Yes but it is still more 2 more damage, and disadvantages can be just fun to play.
Couldn't you do this with Dragon Instinct instead and get basically the same effect, but with 2 less Rage damage?
Well, it's still 2 less damage. And Dragon Instinct gives multiple damage types, which increases chances of resistance.
Also, Giant Instinct gives you a bigger reach, which nicely interacts with Flurry of Blows and your lack of AC to make a hit and run Barbarian with crazy damage abilities, Attacks of Opportunity and no problem evading enemies Attacks of Opportunity.
So, yes, I think you can end up with a way stronger build than with a Dragon Barbarian.
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My favorite interaction with Giant Instinct is Whirlwind Strike with upto 20ft of reach.
Also, reach in general is underrated IMO. A lot of people just see the big numbers or the status effects and want to go towards that, simply assuming they'll be able to do it effectively, but reach makes it more likely that whatever plan you have will actually be able to work in the heat of battle.
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One point for allowing the damage to apply to any attack is that there is no other inbuilt bonuses to damage from any of the Giant's Stature/further feats. This means that any old Fighter who has Enlarge cast on them is "better" at doing large headbutts than a Giant Instinct Barbarian is by default.
I mean, sure before 6th it doesn't Really make sense that holding a large sized dagger makes a Giant Instinct Barbarian punch harder, but once those feats do come online it gets weird that growing to Large size yourself doesn't make your punches/kicks/attacks with other weapons than your now Huge weapon hit harder.
I for one would allow it.
My favorite interaction with Giant Instinct is Whirlwind Strike with upto 20ft of reach.
Also, reach in general is underrated IMO. A lot of people just see the big numbers or the status effects and want to go towards that, simply assuming they'll be able to do it effectively, but reach makes it more likely that whatever plan you have will actually be able to work in the heat of battle.
Reach is complex to assess, because the real question is: What is your Reach compared to your enemy's Reach and Size?
And the higher their level and the higher the Reach and Size of enemies. Making any investment in Reach less and less useful unless it grows with level.
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One point for allowing the damage to apply to any attack is that there is no other inbuilt bonuses to damage from any of the Giant's Stature/further feats. This means that any old Fighter who has Enlarge cast on them is "better" at doing large headbutts than a Giant Instinct Barbarian is by default.
I mean, sure before 6th it doesn't Really make sense that holding a large sized dagger makes a Giant Instinct Barbarian punch harder, but once those feats do come online it gets weird that growing to Large size yourself doesn't make your punches/kicks/attacks with other weapons than your now Huge weapon hit harder.
I for one would allow it.
If you assume that Titan Mauler checks your natural size, rather than your current temporary size, then you can get the bonus damage any time you are wielding a large weapon, regardless of whether you are Large or Huge at the time. I think this is a possible reading of the rule since it repeatedly uses the optional "can" throughout the rules text, rather than something more hardline like "must."
If you assume that Titan Mauler checks your natural size, rather than your current temporary size, then you can get the bonus damage any time you are wielding a large weapon, regardless of whether you are Large or Huge at the time. I think this is a possible reading of the rule since it repeatedly uses the optional "can" throughout the rules text, rather than something more hardline like "must."One point for allowing the damage to apply to any attack is that there is no other inbuilt bonuses to damage from any of the Giant's Stature/further feats. This means that any old Fighter who has Enlarge cast on them is "better" at doing large headbutts than a Giant Instinct Barbarian is by default.
I mean, sure before 6th it doesn't Really make sense that holding a large sized dagger makes a Giant Instinct Barbarian punch harder, but once those feats do come online it gets weird that growing to Large size yourself doesn't make your punches/kicks/attacks with other weapons than your now Huge weapon hit harder.
I for one would allow it.
We have no reason to assume this.
You can use a weapon built for a Large creature if you are Small or Medium (both normally and when raging). If you're not Small or Medium, you can use a weapon built for a creature one size larger than you...When wielding such a weapon in combat, increase your additional damage from Rage from 2 to 6...
The ability even takes into account creature sizes other than small or medium and notes that you must wield a weapon built for a creature one size larger than you, which neatly supports checking for such a weapon after any sort of growth or shrinkage. Giant's Stature states that your gear increases in size with you, so assuming you started with a large weapon, it would go to huge, but your other weapons and natural attacks would still be at their "status quo" size in line with your own.
If the ability made any mention of a "natural size" or anything like that, I'd agree. But it doesn't so I don't.