I should probably begin by saying that, unlike most of the people I've seen posting here, I'm not an optimizer. I play RPGs primarily for the role play aspect, and only care about power level when someone is clearly much better or worse than the group in combat. I understand that, at high levels of optimization, mine is probably not the experience a Magus player gets. I'm speaking here for those of us who don't plan 20 levels before we make a single character decision.
When I pick up the magus, two things in order immediately strike me as awesome. Spell Combat, and Spellstrike. They're in the front of the feature list, and even I can imagine them being awesome together. I immediately imagine a badass warrior mage using spellstrike to hit people with a sword infused with Vampiric Touch, or using spell combat to scorching ray someone in the face while hitting them with a sword. That seems awesome to me.
Fast forward to 4th level in a relatively new campaign (we're using the fast progression, and we play a lot). Things are not working out quite so amazingly as I had imagined. The culprit? Concentration. Casting defensively is just too difficult. I need to make a DC 19 check to successfuly cast a 2nd level spell, which, with my +9 modifier (+4 caster level, +5 ability), is a flat 50% chance at failing with my character's primary ability. I could use spell combat's penalty to attack bit to increase my chances, but even then I've got a 25% chance of failure, and forget trying to actually hit with the sword (or even a touch spell, to be blunt). I'm confused, because I cannot use what is ostensibly the primary ability for the class without having a stupid failure chance. To make matters worse, if I fail I lose the spell while it does nothing for me.
Fortunately, I have a friend who tells me I should have taken Combat Casting and the trait Focused Mind, and a DM who let me retroactively change those character decisions. I haven't played much with the new set up, but I feel like I'm actually capable of doing something now, which is more than I can say about before the switch. Still, I could have easily just gotten frustrated and given up on the character if this wasn't a playtest. That would be a shame, because the concept of a spellcaster/swordsman is just too cool to pass up.
The bottom line? Magus seems a little unforgiving for players who just want to pick it up and do what it looks like it should be doing. Maybe just giving combat casting as a bonus feat would to the trick, or maybe something else needs to be done. I don't know. I do know that up until very recently, I've been frustrated with the class.
Hope this helps.
I'm playing a magus to, also level 4 and yes the concentration check is a pain in the ass, but it's needed.
I think taking one feat (Combat Casting) is not called "Optimizing".
I feel execpt the other way, as magus you don't have many "fix" feat-lines like some other builds. (e.g. melee "must" go power attack).
For example, i took Scribe Scroll & Weapon Finess, the next one will be "Dervish Dance". Sure a not all so common featchain, but hell it's fun.
Sure you have to "bolster" your stats a little bit as magus, but with a small prep before combat (shield, bull's strength etc.) you can make it up.
I primarily choose the Magus because of the style and hitting a enemy with my scimitar and a shocking grasp at the same round, hell that's rock!
Because Combat Casting seems to be a must-have feat for the Magus, I think it should be a bonus feat at 1st level.
Also, I think the "Armored Caster" benefits should be split into two combat styles that you get to pick from at first level, like a ranger. One, in which you receive an increasing ability to cast spells in heavier armor, and another in which you never get better than light armor, but get weapon finesse and related abilities. Essentially you pick from "Heavy Magus" and "Light Magus".
Between those two changes the class would become more approachable to beginning or intermediate players, and get strengthened at low levels without boosting high-level power too much.
I agree with your complaint/suggestion. A class has to be viable even when he only takes crappy (or RP-relevant) skills/feats.
A rogue would have a pretty hard time without move silently, but he could still attack, even a fighter could just grab a sword and attack, a wizard would cast spells and doesn't even necessarily add new spells to his spellbook (besides the 2 per lvl he gets).
A Magus should not really have to rely on a few choices to become viable. A 50/50 chance is a bit low, I doubt that a fighter without combat feats would come to such a chance to hit.
Combat casting as a bonus feat might be the answer, that would stop him from further taking that feat. Alternative is to just give him a bonus on concentration, and he could further take combat casting. This would need some number-crunching.
It's a 50/50 on the Magus's top end spell(s) at that level. Ratchet back to 1st level spells and its only a 35% chance of failure, 10% if you take the full penalty to attack with this character. Move back to spamming 0 level spells and its 5% less but you won't loose them if you fail. Throw Combat casting on with an additional -2 atk (-4 total) and you have no fear casting anything 1st level or lower (+4 CL, +5 Stat, +4 Combat Casting, +2 Spell Combat). That seems fair for a dedicated caster magus, while getting to swing a sword around at the same time.
I though this got crunched out fairly heavily in round 1.
There are at least two very distinct styles of Magus showing up. The dervish as Tryn is doing, which focuses more on sword work at lower levels backed by the occasional spell. The other is caster magus who leads with Combat Casting and backs his spells with a sword. If this was an old WotC book/write-up you'd see at least those two as the starting packages.
*edit* Fully gimp your attack at the full -5 with combat casting and you can now do what no Wizard your level can with equivalent stats, cast a 2nd level Spell in combat without fear of reprisal. +18 with a roll of 1.
*edit 2* I would not give the Magus Combat Casting free, nor more concentration check bonuses. Instead I would give the Magus an out on Magus list spells. Say if they only loose the spell if they fail by 5 or more on the roll. This would conserve their limited spell resources but still penalize them for taking high risk gambles... like casting top end spells they just learned in the middle of combat while swinging a sword. Better yet make that the Concentration Arcana. For 1 Point per spell level a magus can retain a spell that failed a concentration check by 4 or less.
There is a big difference between optimization, and not ignoring basic needs of a kind of character. If you play a barbarian with an 8 strength you will miss on alot of your attacks. That doesnt mean the barbarian is poorly designed. Not every class is exclusive to this and some understanding of and willingness to work with the system is required to not fail on a lot of your roles.
@Richard: Thank you.
@Dorje: And the wizard has a whole list of spells it can cast that the Magus can't. I haven't played with the new set up much (and I haven't been taking a penalty to attack rolls when I had, since I haven't felt like I needed to, though I'll probably be trying it now), so I can't say if it's overpowered or not, but just because a Magus can do something and a wizard can't doesn't mean that the Magus is too good.
@IkeDoe: How often was I prevented from moving five feet? Never, or rarely. Did I know this tactic existed? No. Again, I play this game primarily for the Role Play aspect. I hadn't thought of doing that. I will now, though. *evil grin*
I've played the sorcerer that (more or less) casts magic missile only before, and you know what? I had fun. Sure, I wasn't doing as much as the two-weapon rogue that always flanked, but I always felt like I was doing something. My problem here was that I was literally doing nothing before I was shown this feat that I've never had to take on another character. (fwiw: I've played spellcasters before, but they've always been the "hide in the back while shooting things" type)
@Kolokotroni: It's true that an 8 STR barbarian would suck. That is immediately obvious to everyone playing it. I'd like to think the concentration check issue is not quite so obvious, since most "newbs" playing casters hide behind the warriors and rarely, if ever, actually make concentration checks. Hence, unforgiving. Not useless. I've seen plenty of discussion on this board (yay lurking!), and it looks like this class can do powerful things.
Hope that covers everything. As a more general comment, I'd like to point out that this is just one person's experience playing with the Magus so far. It's probably different than your's, because I'm playing a different style of game than you.
@Mark, I should have actually used a battle cleric, inquisitor, or bard as better examples in those cases. If you want another example look at the Psychic Warrior from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. If you really max out a Magus for casting it is the only caster class in the game right now that can cast its top spells at low level while in the thick of melee or getting threatened by things with reach. Most cast a big ticket spell or effect, and then move into combat. A casting focused magus is right there on the first turn if needed. Options/Choices = Power. It likely isn't not an overpowering thing, which is a good because it doesn't become the only way to optimize a magus.
I agree this is not a casual friendly class, and it doesn't need to be. Most split role characters require a little more awareness of how different parts of the game mesh.
The magus is a relatively complex class. Like the alchemist, bard, or inquisitor, it's really easy to "mess up" and it's not immediately obvious how you're supposed to play one. They're not really a good match for casual play. That being said, for someone with a bit of mechanics-savvy or has the time or desire to learn the rules, the magus is very fun.
The magus is a relatively complex class. Like the alchemist, bard, or inquisitor, it's really easy to "mess up" and it's not immediately obvious how you're supposed to play one. They're not really a good match for casual play. That being said, for someone with a bit of mechanics-savvy or has the time or desire to learn the rules, the magus is very fun.
How casual are you if you're running the only new class found in a magic supplement?
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It's a complex class that deserves thought to its mechanics. I would even go so far as to say that Paizo might want to put a note in front of the Magus that says "This is a complex class with complex mechanics that might not be best for all players."
The concentration check are hard at lower levels. After about 9th level, they're nearly automatic for a lot of tests. Maybe Combat Casting should be a bonus feat and other bonus feats delayed a level or two to make up for it. It would certainly free up a feat slot for me. But I think if you play this complex class as it deserves, you don't need an extra bonus feat.
Well, by "casual", I mean like my friends who still need help to level their characters up.
Maybe Combat Casting should be a bonus feat and other bonus feats delayed a level or two to make up for it. It would certainly free up a feat slot for me. But I think if you play this complex class as it deserves, you don't need an extra bonus feat.
I agree. I'm not advocating for "more bonus feats" so much as I'm advocating for "the right bonus feats". I think that giving the Magus Combat Casting at 1st and bumping the others back slightly would be just fine.
Actually, I think that the current bonus feats at 5, 11, and 17 are a rather unnecessary part of the Magus. I'd rather see two main fighting styles supported (heavy and light armor) than a few metamagic or item creation feats added onto the base 1 feat/2levels.
Ok, so before I decided to play around with the best magus...
My character was a 5th level fighter I wanted to go EK with.
I rolled stupid stats ( i never do, i usually point buy)
i got a 17,15,16,10,10 and a 9
so i set it up originally as an elf fighter.
str 17
dex 18 (16 with +2 racial mod)
con 8 (10 with -2 racial mod)
int 18 (15 with +2 racial mod, +1 at 4th level)
Wis 10
Cha 9
its really MADE to be a fighter/arcane charatcer.
which is why i went the direction i was goin to go with EK
so like i said i was a 5th level fighter, but we all wanted to see the magus in action and since i was going for ek anyway...
so i changed him into a magus.
i was apprehensive at first since it looked like an EK at 1t level
it pretty much does everything i wanted to do as an EK, plus some toys.
but i can totally see the limitations now that i played it, and i can see some bonuses to going EK instead.
with that said, im working on trying to figure out, if i can dual activate magic items, usig the wand weilder and a rod in my other hand as a light or one handed weapon!
muahahaha
Ok, so before I decided to play around with the best magus...
My character was a 5th level fighter I wanted to go EK with.
I rolled stupid stats ( i never do, i usually point buy)
i got a 17,15,16,10,10 and a 9
so i set it up originally as an elf fighter.
str 17
dex 18 (16 with +2 racial mod)
con 8 (10 with -2 racial mod)
int 18 (15 with +2 racial mod, +1 at 4th level)
Wis 10
Cha 9
its really MADE to be a fighter/arcane charatcer.
which is why i went the direction i was goin to go with EK
so like i said i was a 5th level fighter, but we all wanted to see the magus in action and since i was going for ek anyway...
so i changed him into a magus.
i was apprehensive at first since it looked like an EK at 1t level
it pretty much does everything i wanted to do as an EK, plus some toys.
but i can totally see the limitations now that i played it, and i can see some bonuses to going EK instead.
with that said, im working on trying to figure out, if i can dual activate magic items, usig the wand weilder and a rod in my other hand as a light or one handed weapon!
muahahaha