so i'm playing in a legacy of fire game and i'm playing a pally who would like to crack out my armor and i'm looking for some feats to do that.
Are you a dwarf, half-orc, human*, or orc? If so, take the Ironhide feat (APG) to get +1 natural armor. From that point forward put your feats into Improved Natural Armor (Bestiary). Stack that with normal AC-raising conventions (amulet, armor, ring, shield) and it gets real high real fast.
I have a human* fighter with 60 AC thanks to this.
* Note that if you are a human, you have to spend a feat on Racial Heritage (APG) first.
Also, if you're dex is high enough, dodge went from "meh" to outstanding in Pathfinder.
I'm going to give some posting advice rather than AC advice. You'll find that if you approach the forum correctly we'll be a lot more helpful.
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- Please post your current character build, level, etc. so we know what we're working with.
- Are you playing a sanctioned Pathfinder Society game? (There are special rules for that.)
- What materials does your GM allow? (Core book only, core book and APG, all published Pathfinder material, D&D 3.5 material, 3rd party, etc.)
- Spelling, grammar, and capitalization really do count. If you write like you've thought about your post carefully and are being respectful to the people who are going to spend their time helping you, you'll get more help.
great advice
This -- I have lots of advice for increasing your AC and general survivability among other things... but until I know where you are right now with your character I'm not going to post due to not wanting to post a lot of stuff that might not be relevant.
I'll also give you some general advice, rather than boost advice.
Don't get into an AC arms race with the GM. He'll win, he has infinite resources. And, doing so will hurt your team mates.
Example, if you are at 3rd level, and have a 28 AC, and the rest of the party averages 20 AC, then anything that has a 25% chance of hitting you, will have a 65% chance of hitting your teammates. I've seen this in games before, in multiple systems. If you're the front line fighter, and you are if you're a Pally, then you want to be about 20-25% higher than the party average (don't count another fighter). If you're more than that above, you're putting the other players in danger if the GM is to challenge your character. If he doesn't, then he's throwing stuff at you that can never hit you on anything other than a 20, which means you will blow through enemies that are causing your teammates problems. This is also a problem, as it will make the rogue and barbarian feel like they might as well not even show up to the fight.
Honestly, AC is one of the biggest party issues at lower levels. Once you get up into the 10+ levels, it's not so big a deal, everything's BAB is so high that everyone is getting hit routinely.
at first level, it is common for us to tank up a fighter and get him a 20ac.
this gives us good survival odds and yea he doesn't get hit much int he beginning by goblins and stuff but whos to say a magic missle from a goblin sorceror isnt going to hurt a 1st lev fighter?
yea goblins got to roll a 19-20 to hit him, but hecj why have heavy armor if it never works?
(btw we usually pool our money from character builds to do it)
MDT gave good general advice I would not count it as 100% true. It really depends on the DM. I would ask him directly how he would handle certain situations.
MDT gave good general advice I would not count it as 100% true. It really depends on the DM. I would ask him directly how he would handle certain situations.
+1
In the games I run AC has never been too much of a problem as far as balance is concerned. If a character has high AC simply counter with a couple spells, or present the party with a 10ft chasm in hostile territory and see how happy the fighter is with his heavy armor ;)
4th level half-orc palaidn
15 str
13 dex
15 con
16 wis
12 int
18 chaThe only reason I'm thinking of raising my ac is that we've got a barbarian and a fighter both using two-handed weapons and doing about 14 damage on average so im looking at taking the hits for the casters in the group.
I would like to be able to use a tower shield with out the attack pen.
Stats and a scenario! Now that's something we can work with.
- The feat "Tower Shield Proficiency" is what you're looking for. It buys you two extra AC from your shield, and you'll still have the -10 on Ride if you're using your mount. Another option is the feat "Shield Focus" which will give you +1 AC from any shield you use. They can be used together or separately.
- Are you wearing plate armor yet? That will give you the biggest boost in one go, at +9. (One day in the far future, you'll want to get that made out of Mithral. When you can afford that, an item that increases your dexterity will also help your AC.)
- Don't forget that you can Smite Evil twice per day, which based on your 18 charisma, greatly increases your ability to deal damage, as well as your armor class.
- You just gained access to the spell Protection from Chaos/Evil up to twice per day. That gives +2 AC along with a number of other benefits. Protection, Divine Favor, Magic Weapon, and Bless are probably your best spells right now.
- Dodge will get you +1 AC.
- At level 5, you can give your weapon Defending, which can raise AC in a pinch.
You'll probably also want to keep up on damage once in a while, and a paladin is perfectly capable of doing that.
- Are you adding 1 to your Strength score at level 4? You may want to consider doing that.
- Dropping your shield to use your weapon 2-handed once in a while can be a good tactic. Dropping the shield is a free action.
- Don't forget to Smite Evil. Smite early, smite often!
- With Smite Evil and Divine Favor on yourself, you'd have a good chance of out-damaging the Fighter and Barbarian for a few key rounds of combat every day.
- Next level you'll have Divine Bond, and you'll be able to add Flaming to your weapon for 5 minuets per day, which is probably all the combat you'll see in a typical day. Adding that 1d6 fire damage will also help you lay down some beats.
I realy don't care about out damageing the fighter or the barbian my only concern is keeping the other 3 guys in our group alive. And is there anyway to remove the to hit penality with the tower sheild.
Yep, that was the first thing I said, the feat "Tower Shield Proficiency".
Have you ever heard the phrase, "The best defense is a good offense?" Say your fighter and barbarian buddies are in melee with some baddies, and you're standing 60' away with the casters. The casters are doing their thing, and manage to tick off a couple of baddies enough that they charge over and start attacking. What do you do?
A) Stand there with 100 hit points and an AC of 45 while your casters get beat up?
B) Kill the baddies before they kill your casters.
No matter how much you yell, "Hit me! Hey monster, pick on someone your own size! Lay off my wizard!" the only thing monsters respect in the middle of a fight is the threat of stabbity-stabbity-death.
I realy don't care about out damageing the fighter or the barbian my only concern is keeping the other 3 guys in our group alive. And is there anyway to remove the to hit penality with the tower sheild.Yep, that was the first thing I said, the feat "Tower Shield Proficiency".
Does that work ?
Tower Shield
When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a –2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield's encumbrance.
Tower Shield Proficiency
When you use a tower shield, the shield's armor check penalty only applies to Strength and Dexterity-based skills.
I think the -2 penalty is not an armor check penalty.
It does suck a little ... but hey ... you've got a DOOR strapped to your arm ;)And with Shield Focus, and perhaps a +1 magical one, it does add +6 to your AC :)
-TDL
Does that work ?
Nope, you're right. I read the line that says, "No penalties on attack rolls when using a tower shield" in the core book, which is misleading to say the least! It should probably say, "Fewer" or "Lower" rather than "No penalties".
The easiest way to up your AC will be to take a level in holy vindicator.
I hope this isn't a thread-jack, but along the lines of AC boosting are Rings of Protection the only effective way of raising your Touch AC?
Dex, dodge, sacred/profane, insight, morale, and untyped bonuses would all add to touch AC.
I'll also give you some general advice, rather than boost advice.
Don't get into an AC arms race with the GM. He'll win, he has infinite resources. And, doing so will hurt your team mates.
Example, if you are at 3rd level, and have a 28 AC, and the rest of the party averages 20 AC, then anything that has a 25% chance of hitting you, will have a 65% chance of hitting your teammates.
Probably, but that's still a dick move by the DM. If you have ENTIRELY focused your character on the suboptimal focus of preventing yourself from being hit (rather than optimizing for actually hurting the opponent), the DM screwing you over is just spiteful. And even more spiteful to other players. But rarely would he have to try, once you get later in the game, the choice of "trying not to get hit" will start failing once NORMAL monster to hit starts exceeding any ability to mundanely increase your AC. Sure, Lizardfolk won't hit you at level 3, but the Purple Worm will at the appropriate level. And you will be lucky if you can hit it.
It's like building a character for diplomancy and the DM deciding that everyone hates you and you can't convince them otherwise.
Can we say touch attack.
This is what I'm talking about.
Some one cranks their armor enough to actually qualify as a tank, and things suddenly start having lots of touch attacks.
Screw it, everyone roll a caster!
Can we say touch attack.This is what I'm talking about.
Some one cranks their armor enough to actually qualify as a tank, and things suddenly start having lots of touch attacks.
Screw it, everyone roll a caster!
He did say he was playing in the Legacy of Fire campaign modules, so if the DM is running them basically as written, he won't be adjusting a lot of things to have them all have touch attack now. Though maybe things there do have a lot if it, we're only in the second book.
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I agree with you to a certain extent Cartigan but there's nothing more infuriating to a game than wild discrepencies in power level between characters. Making an invulnerable unhittable monster of a PC who can do everything is just no fun for the GM and the rest of the players.
That's why I dislike optimisation so much because it invariably makes that player the dominant one at the table. If all the players are optimised then fair enough, the GM can adjust. If one player is optimised and the rest are not then it gets very dull, very quickly.
He did say he was playing in the Legacy of Fire campaign modules, so if the DM is running them basically as written, he won't be adjusting a lot of things to have them all have touch attack now. Though maybe things there do have a lot if it, we're only in the second book.Can we say touch attack.This is what I'm talking about.
Some one cranks their armor enough to actually qualify as a tank, and things suddenly start having lots of touch attacks.
Screw it, everyone roll a caster!
Adventure paths are there own thing, but I was just making the point. OR rather, LostSoul was making it for me. "Pump your AC" is one of the most suboptimal combat optimizations, if not the most (excluding non-combat/RP optimization), and yet here are people trying to point out ways to screw him over. This is why melee combatants can't have nice things.
I agree with you to a certain extent Cartigan but there's nothing more infuriating to a game than wild discrepencies in power level between characters. Making an invulnerable unhittable monster of a PC who can do everything is just no fun for the GM and the rest of the players.
Except that's my point. They CAN'T do everything. In fact, the only thing they can do is NOT be hit by mundane attacks. So much focus is going to go into cranking AC, that to-hit and damage are going to be hampered. Even more so for some one like Paladin where they are really only in the upper tier of do ANYTHING when against Evil creatures X times a day.
That's why I dislike optimisation so much because it invariably makes that player the dominant one at the table.
If you have a Paladin with 45 AC, the REAL dangerous people in the party are the Arcane casters, Divine casters, and Barbarian/Fighter with +30 to hit and damage.
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If you want to keep you team alive tower shield and goad from complete adventurer. If you don't use non pathfinder books stacking ac isn't a great way to defend your team. Try using things like overrun, bull rush, trip, disarm, and sunder. I say this because, if you want to keep people alive, controling the flow of battle is the best way for a non "insane damage" class like a pally to do so.
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I agree with you to a certain extent Cartigan but there's nothing more infuriating to a game than wild discrepencies in power level between characters. Making an invulnerable unhittable monster of a PC who can do everything is just no fun for the GM and the rest of the players.Except that's my point. They CAN'T do everything. In fact, the only thing they can do is NOT be hit by mundane attacks. So much focus is going to go into cranking AC, that to-hit and damage are going to be hampered. Even more so for some one like Paladin where they are really only in the upper tier of do ANYTHING when against Evil creatures X times a day.
That's why I dislike optimisation so much because it invariably makes that player the dominant one at the table.If you have a Paladin with 45 AC, the REAL dangerous people in the party are the Arcane casters, Divine casters, and Barbarian/Fighter with +30 to hit and damage.
I'm not talking about 45 AC unhittable characters. I am talking about optimisation in general. In my experience you tend to get one person in a group who optimises and thereby dominates the game.
That's what you were talking about until I made that point.
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I'm not talking about 45 AC unhittable characters. I am talking about optimisation in general. In my experience you tend to get one person in a group who optimises and thereby dominates the game.
A dm should always go to a player and descuss their character. I have been asked by dms in the past to "tone down" characters and I comply. A player who optimises a toon so well that other players feel under powered need to use restraint.
*example:
Dm " hey man can I ask you for a favor?"
Player " yeah what?"
Dm "hey the other players are feeling a little under powered, can you help them with their characters?"
OR
"Can you tone it down a little? Your character is making it hard for me to ..."
That is how a mature gamming group would handle something like that. Play the character and make sure you communicate with your dm.
That's what you were talking about until I made that point.Didn't realise this was a competition.
My point is all optimised PC's is fine, one optimised PC gets boring.
Making an invulnerable unhittable monster of a PC who can do everything is just no fun for the GM and the rest of the players.
That was your argument. I countered it. This isn't the thread for generic complaining about super optimization.
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I'm not talking about 45 AC unhittable characters. I am talking about optimisation in general. In my experience you tend to get one person in a group who optimises and thereby dominates the game.
A dm should always go to a player and descuss their character. I have been asked by dms in the past to "tone down" characters and I comply. A player who optimises a toon so well that other players feel under powered need to use restraint.
*example:
Dm " hey man can I ask you for a favor?"
Player " yeah what?"
Dm "hey the other players are feeling a little under powered, can you help them with their characters?"OR
"Can you tone it down a little? Your character is making it hard for me to ..."That is how a mature gamming group would handle something like that. Play the character and make sure you communicate with your dm.
Wait...ma---ture? Where are these mythical players you speak of?
Kidding. But seriously, I am unfortunately in a group with people that feel alienated during these kinds of conversations. But I digress and invariably threadjack...apologies.
Can't we all just have cookies and get along? :P
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That's what you were talking about until I made that point.Didn't realise this was a competition.
My point is all optimised PC's is fine, one optimised PC gets boring.
Making an invulnerable unhittable monster of a PC who can do everything is just no fun for the GM and the rest of the players.That was your argument. I countered it. This isn't the thread for generic complaining about super optimization.
Wow man chill, it's only a game. I wasn't complaining just making a point which I thought was related to the thread. No biggie.
@Sidekick. Yup a very sensible attitude to take.
@ZangRavnos. Here have my last Jaffa Cake. *tosses over Jaffa Cake*. Not quite a cookie but hey still chocolate orangey goodness right?
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@ZangRavnos. Here have my last Jaffa Cake. *tosses over Jaffa Cake*. Not quite a cookie but hey still chocolate orangey goodness right?
Mmmm...caaaake...
Anyhow. Here's my ultimate take on the situation - AC will only go so far. I think just as much thought will need to be taken into how many hits they can actually take. That's almost the more important matter, as designing a total glass cannon is not as fantastic as it may appear. Sure, your AC of 34 will deflect even the nastiest of hits, but when something DOES hit, you don't want it to one-shot you. May want to consider investing in some con boosts or consumables that will boost as well. It doesn't hurt to have some kind of buffer along for that, at higher levels a bard with Inspire Greatness will give you 2 free HD of hp's, not too shabby in most situations. I think in this instance, working with others in the group for overall group strat might be advisable as well.
Just my two.
@FallofCamelot - *Tosses bag of cookies* I had extra :P
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I agree with you to a certain extent Cartigan but there's nothing more infuriating to a game than wild discrepencies in power level between characters. Making an invulnerable unhittable monster of a PC who can do everything is just no fun for the GM and the rest of the players.Except that's my point. They CAN'T do everything. In fact, the only thing they can do is NOT be hit by mundane attacks. So much focus is going to go into cranking AC, that to-hit and damage are going to be hampered. Even more so for some one like Paladin where they are really only in the upper tier of do ANYTHING when against Evil creatures X times a day.
That's why I dislike optimisation so much because it invariably makes that player the dominant one at the table.If you have a Paladin with 45 AC, the REAL dangerous people in the party are the Arcane casters, Divine casters, and Barbarian/Fighter with +30 to hit and damage.
Sorry Cartigan I have to disagree. I've played many a Tank and if your role is to be a speedbump to protect your casters than not being able to be hit by mundane means (among othr things) can be a good thing.
If my AC is high enough that the DM has to really think about using Power Attack then I'm saving my lower AC companions some damage. And a Tank shouldn't merely rely on Armor, Nat Armor, & Shield bonuses... Touch AC and items/spells that provide Miss chances shouldn't be ignored. Adventuring is a Team Sport, you don't see Linemen complaining in Football that they're not scoring enough touchdowns. It's not their Job.
--Vrock that Kick!
I agree with you to a certain extent Cartigan but there's nothing more infuriating to a game than wild discrepencies in power level between characters. Making an invulnerable unhittable monster of a PC who can do everything is just no fun for the GM and the rest of the players.Except that's my point. They CAN'T do everything. In fact, the only thing they can do is NOT be hit by mundane attacks. So much focus is going to go into cranking AC, that to-hit and damage are going to be hampered. Even more so for some one like Paladin where they are really only in the upper tier of do ANYTHING when against Evil creatures X times a day.
That's why I dislike optimisation so much because it invariably makes that player the dominant one at the table.If you have a Paladin with 45 AC, the REAL dangerous people in the party are the Arcane casters, Divine casters, and Barbarian/Fighter with +30 to hit and damage.
Honestly do I need to do this again? Cause I can -- having
AC and HP and Damage and save throws isn't that hard people.|
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On that note I think we can all agree that Straight AC is over-rated and other concerns should be addressed such as low Touch and HP totals. I'd almost venture to say that Touch and HP is more important, as physical damage can often be far less of an issue than spell damage and effects.
Or maybe we can't and we'll beat a dead horse 'till the end of time. Either way, we're repeating ourselves.
Mmm..cookies...nomnomnom
Sorry Cartigan I have to disagree. I've played many a Tank and if your role is to be a speedbump to protect your casters
...being a armor-based speedbump in a game where there is no system design in place to force opponents to attack you?
than not being able to be hit by mundane means (among othr things) can be a good thing.
Which has nothing to do with what I said so I don't know what you are disagreeing with me about.
If my AC is high enough that the DM has to really think about using Power Attack then I'm saving my lower AC companions some damage.
Anything with power attack is probably going to be smart enough to walk around you.
I'm a fan of polearm-trip as a caster protection strategy. By the time opponents start getting too big to trip, getting enlarged is trivial. Late game it weakens, but by that time casters have their own tricks.
Can any one tell me how to be effctive in combat other the HIT THINGS HARD RAR.
You need two things to be effective in combat, offense and defense.
The best defense is a mix of not getting hit (avoiding attacks, AC, invisibility, saving throws) and not dying just because you've been hit (hit points, damage reduction, healing). As a paladin, AC, saving throws, hit points, and healing are all readily available to you. By wearing plate armor and using a shield, you're going to have the highest AC in your group, your saving throws are probably the highest as well. You have very good hit points, and the ability to heal yourself if they run low. So your defense looks good all around.
Offense is just as important because, if you can't hurt the enemies, they'll just ignore you. Offense can be damage dealt, or neutralizing opponents without damaging them. Any class can use either method, but some are better at damage, while others are better at non-damage manipulations. Generally, hitters are better at dealing damage and casters are better at neutralizing living opponents.
As a hitter, you're easiest option is dealing damage. (you have good BAB, strength, weapon choice, etc.) If you want to do something other than deal damage, you'll probably have to use combat maneuvers like trip, disarm, bull rush, etc. That's a little more difficult because each technique requires multiple feats to master, and will only work in certain situations or against certain opponents.
Ok my question was how to raise all my ac not just plain ol ac. And since folks don't think rasieing ac out side of magic armor and shield is useful. Can any one tell me how to be effctive in combat other the HIT THINGS HARD RAR. Also im thinking of going warrior of holy light for a bit more healing since im the partys only healer. and btw my hp is very good ive rolled 9 for my last three levels and am sitting at 45 hp. which is more then the fighter and only 11 behind the barbian.
Sure -- first off Go sacred servant and grab that level of holy vindicator. That will give you a sacred bonus to AC which will hit all your AC types and your CMD to boot in addition to the spells -- since you can divine bond your holy symbol to up your channeling power you'll be able to boost your AC just that little bit more from that too. This should honestly cover you for AC needs with the standard full Plate +"x" and buckler +"x" -- why buckler? See below:
As to damage:
Power attack is going to be mandatory Fortunately you are still low enough in your build to play around a bit -- I recommend exotic weapon proficiency falcata -- I know it takes a feat but the crit range and multiplier are going to be worth it. Since you are less worried about damage and more worried about getting in the way let's get things that do this for you:
Grab Lunge, Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard and In Harm's Way for feats after 5th level (you need the fifth level feat to get into vindicator). You might want to consider some fighter levels to pick up the extra feats -- I know this hurts else where but with 4 fighter levels you can move easier in medium armor gain three feats and don't lose any BAB. With these you can have your 10 foot reach and still stand beside the casters in your armor. If someone attacks the casters you'll use bodyguard to help their AC and if they get hit use In Harm's Way to take the blow for them. If your allies are willing to spend a feat the Swap Places feat could help you help them stay out of danger (it gives them a free five foot step when you move). Don't forget to spend the first round of combat casting a spell like divine favor to help you hit. After all if you are protecting the casters you are probably spending time waiting for something to get to you and the casters -- might as well put that time to use getting ready.
When you really need to dish out the damage now you'll use the falcata two handed and forget about the shield bonus -- the fact you are still wearing the shield will be enough to keep the sacred bonus to AC.
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Sorry Cartigan I have to disagree. I've played many a Tank and if your role is to be a speedbump to protect your casters...being a armor-based speedbump in a game where there is no system design in place to force opponents to attack you?
than not being able to be hit by mundane means (among othr things) can be a good thing.Which has nothing to do with what I said so I don't know what you are disagreeing with me about.
If my AC is high enough that the DM has to really think about using Power Attack then I'm saving my lower AC companions some damage.Anything with power attack is probably going to be smart enough to walk around you.
You don't need a system that forces them to attack you. You can strategically position yourself where opponents are forced to pass by you where either readied actions or AoO's to control the battlefield via feats like Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Stand Still, & Combat Patrol can be used. The APG has given us plenty of options to play bodyguard.
--Between a Vrock & a Hard place
Some great advice!
+1