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Ok first the corebook says..
"When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered,
most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic
garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust
themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep
characters of various kinds from using magic items."...
Wich brings me to the question "Are magic items auto-ajustable" well like by magic?
Lets say the party kill a hill giant fitted with a +5 adamantium full plate and a cloak of resistance +5 both of these giant size of course. Can we assume that the cloak would automaticly resize to fit the party halfling? And what about the full plate for the party dwarf?
I've never read that as it adjusts size categories. Otherwise, you could cheapen magic items by making tiny vesions of MW full plate mithral and then putting it on a medium character.
I have always taken that to mean that if you take a full plate off a 22 Str, 22 Con orc, then it will fit the 16 Str, 16 Con human fighter, despite them being 120 lbs difference in weight and 4 inches in height.
Weapons, armor, shields, things like that dont move size categories, but rings, wands, staves, rods, wonderous items yes, they are like the ring of power in middle earth, it fits sauron and it fits frodo.
largely because in game mechanics it doesnt matter if you make a giant wand of magic missle or a tiny wand of magic missle, cost is the same. Also I think the one ring set a sacred cow precedent.
no wands, staves, rods are weapons so they dont change sizeWeapons, armor, shields, things like that dont move size categories, but rings, wands, staves, rods, wonderous items yes, they are like the ring of power in middle earth, it fits sauron and it fits frodo.
largely because in game mechanics it doesnt matter if you make a giant wand of magic missle or a tiny wand of magic missle, cost is the same. Also I think the one ring set a sacred cow precedent.
Not that it really matters, since you don't usually make melee attacks with them. There's no real penalty for using a medium wand over a small wand. A giant's wand might be a 'stave' for a small creature, but it's still just holding a wooden stick and invoking a spell.
no wands, staves, rods are weapons so they dont change sizeWeapons, armor, shields, things like that dont move size categories, but rings, wands, staves, rods, wonderous items yes, they are like the ring of power in middle earth, it fits sauron and it fits frodo.
largely because in game mechanics it doesnt matter if you make a giant wand of magic missle or a tiny wand of magic missle, cost is the same. Also I think the one ring set a sacred cow precedent.
Really? wands are weapons? how much damage do they do? whats their crit range?
Rods? unless noted in their entry they dont do damage either.
do you need a weapon proficency to use a wand or a rod?
Magic staves, unless noted in their entry are not the same as a "quarter staff" so no...they ARE NOT weapons.
Lets say the party kill a hill giant fitted with a +5 adamantium full plate and a cloak of resistance +5 both of these giant size of course. Can we assume that the cloak would automaticly resize to fit the party halfling? And what about the full plate for the party dwarf?
A carefull reading of the magic items section will reveal that clothing, jewelry and pretty much any wonderous item (as quoted) will resize as necessary for a user.
Weapons and armor & shields on the other hand, do not. Armor can be resized a certain amount for a fee but weapons are static sized unless additional magic effects are built into them to allow resizing/shaping.
So in your example the halfling could fit on the cloak but the armor will stay large and heavy until it can be manually or magically permanently resized.
Polymorph any object anyone?
as far as the weapon thing goes... I hate hate hate small weapons.
For PC sized weapons... halfings use short swords, if they use a longsword its a two handed sword FOR them.
We dont do the small weapons things, just do the 1st edition style limited weapons my size.
for LARGER weapons and much smaller weapons (pixies) we do call them "small or giant sized"
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Lets say the party kill a hill giant fitted with a +5 adamantium full plate and a cloak of resistance +5 both of these giant size of course. Can we assume that the cloak would automaticly resize to fit the party halfling? And what about the full plate for the party dwarf?A carefull reading of the magic items section will reveal that clothing, jewelry and pretty much any wonderous item (as quoted) will resize as necessary for a user.
Weapons and armor & shields on the other hand, do not. Armor can be resized a certain amount for a fee but weapons are static sized unless additional magic effects are built into them to allow resizing/shaping.
So in your example the halfling could fit on the cloak but the armor will stay large and heavy until it can be manually or magically permanently resized.
Polymorph any object anyone?
That was also my original point of view too so i think i'm just gonna stick to it.
That was also my original point of view too so i think i'm just gonna stick to it.
And according to RAW you would be correct sir.
as far as the weapon thing goes... I hate hate hate small weapons.
For PC sized weapons... halfings use short swords, if they use a longsword its a two handed sword FOR them.
We dont do the small weapons things, just do the 1st edition style limited weapons my size.
for LARGER weapons and much smaller weapons (pixies) we do call them "small or giant sized"
I usually do an equivalency thing. A shortsword, for example, is a longsword for a halfling, and a great-sword for a pixie. It's a dagger for a giant (large), and a fingernail cleaner for a giant (huge). :) I don't charge them -2's, it just is what it is based on size.
This required me to redo the weapon damage/size chart a tiny bit, so that the size is consistent (also helped with enlarge/shrink)
1, 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, etc.
So, a shortsword does 1d6. If a halfling is wielding it as a longsword, it's still 1d6, and a great sword is 1d6 for a pixie. It's a 1d6 dagger for a large giant.
as far as the weapon thing goes... I
I usually do an equivalency thing. A shortsword, for example, is a longsword for a halfling, and a great-sword for a pixie. It's a dagger for a giant (large), and a fingernail cleaner for a giant (huge). :) I don't charge them -2's, it just is what it is based on size.This required me to redo the weapon damage/size chart a tiny bit, so that the size is consistent (also helped with enlarge/shrink)
1, 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, etc.
So, a shortsword does 1d6. If a halfling is wielding it as a longsword, it's still 1d6, and a great sword is 1d6 for a pixie. It's a 1d6 dagger for a large giant.
we are talking about the same thing....just saying it a different way
we are talking about the same thing....just saying it a different way
I usually do an equivalency thing. A shortsword, for example, is a longsword for a halfling, and a great-sword for a pixie. It's a dagger for a giant (large), and a fingernail cleaner for a giant (huge). :) I don't charge them -2's, it just is what it is based on size.This required me to redo the weapon damage/size chart a tiny bit, so that the size is consistent (also helped with enlarge/shrink)
1, 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, etc.
So, a shortsword does 1d6. If a halfling is wielding it as a longsword, it's still 1d6, and a great sword is 1d6 for a pixie. It's a 1d6 dagger for a large giant.
Ah, ok. It does work better doesn't it? And it really really makes enlarge/shrink easier.
Ah, ok. It does work better doesn't it? And it really really makes enlarge/shrink easier.we are talking about the same thing....just saying it a different way
I usually do an equivalency thing. A shortsword, for example, is a longsword for a halfling, and a great-sword for a pixie. It's a dagger for a giant (large), and a fingernail cleaner for a giant (huge). :) I don't charge them -2's, it just is what it is based on size.This required me to redo the weapon damage/size chart a tiny bit, so that the size is consistent (also helped with enlarge/shrink)
1, 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, etc.
So, a shortsword does 1d6. If a halfling is wielding it as a longsword, it's still 1d6, and a great sword is 1d6 for a pixie. It's a 1d6 dagger for a large giant.
well yea and if you find a plus 2 dagger no one seems to want the halfing can use it as a short sword and not an over sized (hence -2 to hit) human dagger.
this to me is reminiscent of sting, to bilbo/frodo it was a 'sword' but it was actually an elven dagger....
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as far as the weapon thing goes... I hate hate hate small weapons.
For PC sized weapons... halfings use short swords, if they use a longsword its a two handed sword FOR them.
We dont do the small weapons things, just do the 1st edition style limited weapons my size.
for LARGER weapons and much smaller weapons (pixies) we do call them "small or giant sized"
Yeah, that was one of the things that we're still frowning on in my group -- it's far less elegant than restricting weapons to s/m/l. I'm still constantly dealing with questions like "My halfling's short sword does 1d4 damage... what gives? Why? And how is that different from picking a medium dagger? By the way, if I do that, will I get to-hit penalties, even if the two weapons are more or less identical in *actual* size?" (etcetera)
Oh,
I should note, I only allow one level of 'change' for non-magic weapons. So a medium short sword can be used as a long sword for a halfling or a dagger for a giant, but not as a great sword for a pixie. I do that because the handle is built for a medium sized creature, even if the blade is the right size for a smaller/larger creature.
I assume magic weapons can adjust their handles throughout the viable range of sizes for their blade/etc, just like a cloak does.
There is no rule for resizing armor. I am only pointing this out because we are in the rules section.
Oh,
I should note, I only allow one level of 'change' for non-magic weapons. So a medium short sword can be used as a long sword for a halfling or a dagger for a giant, but not as a great sword for a pixie. I do that because the handle is built for a medium sized creature, even if the blade is the right size for a smaller/larger creature.I assume magic weapons can adjust their handles throughout the viable range of sizes for their blade/etc, just like a cloak does.
yea well thats good, really you only run into the "cross over " issues within one shift from medium anyway.
most adventuring is done amoungst large-small humanoids and monstrous humanoids anyway, and MOST players are not trying to use the cloud giants sword anyway. (there are a few animae lovers out there that might try)
Oh,
I should note, I only allow one level of 'change' for non-magic weapons. So a medium short sword can be used as a long sword for a halfling or a dagger for a giant, but not as a great sword for a pixie. I do that because the handle is built for a medium sized creature, even if the blade is the right size for a smaller/larger creature.I assume magic weapons can adjust their handles throughout the viable range of sizes for their blade/etc, just like a cloak does.
yea well thats good, really you only run into the "cross over " issues within one shift from medium anyway.
most adventuring is done amoungst large-small humanoids and monstrous humanoids anyway, and MOST players are not trying to use the cloud giants sword anyway. (there are a few animae lovers out there that might try)
You'd be surprised. I was in a game one time where we killed a fire giant at 3rd level (had a fighter/cleric with a lance and spirited charge hitting him repeatedly, and he failed 2 saving throws vs Ice dagger and lost 6 pts of dex).
The giant had a breastplate of enlargement, which we stuck on the half-orc (fighter cleric) and he had a large greatsword that flamed. So the half-orc fighter/cleric took monkey grip and carried that thing around, using it when he was enlarged. He was very very nasty.
Oh,
I should note, I only allow one level of 'change' for non-magic weapons. So a medium short sword can be used as a long sword for a halfling or a dagger for a giant, but not as a great sword for a pixie. I do that because the handle is built for a medium sized creature, even if the blade is the right size for a smaller/larger creature.I assume magic weapons can adjust their handles throughout the viable range of sizes for their blade/etc, just like a cloak does.
yea well thats good, really you only run into the "cross over " issues within one shift from medium anyway.
most adventuring is done amoungst large-small humanoids and monstrous humanoids anyway, and MOST players are not trying to use the cloud giants sword anyway. (there are a few animae lovers out there that might try)
You'd be surprised. I was in a game one time where we killed a fire giant at 3rd level (had a fighter/cleric with a lance and spirited charge hitting him repeatedly, and he failed 2 saving throws vs Ice dagger and lost 6 pts of dex).
The giant had a breastplate of enlargement, which we stuck on the half-orc (fighter cleric) and he had a large greatsword that flamed. So the half-orc fighter/cleric took monkey grip and carried that thing around, using it when he was enlarged. He was very very nasty.
so if the fire giant had a breast plate of enlargement he could become a huge giant?
so if the fire giant had a breast plate of enlargement he could become a huge giant?
You'd be surprised. I was in a game one time where we killed a fire giant at 3rd level (had a fighter/cleric with a lance and spirited charge hitting him repeatedly, and he failed 2 saving throws vs Ice dagger and lost 6 pts of dex).The giant had a breastplate of enlargement, which we stuck on the half-orc (fighter cleric) and he had a large greatsword that flamed. So the half-orc fighter/cleric took monkey grip and carried that thing around, using it when he was enlarged. He was very very nasty.
Yep, there were five of us, warmage, fighter/cleric, wizard, rogue, and psionicist. The psionicist kept summoning astral constructs and sending them in to slow it down, the fighter/cleric was spirited charging with a lance, I was casting every cold spell I had, the wizard was hitting him with cold spells (we were in an area we knew there were fire creatures, so he stocked up), and the rogue was popping the thing with his bow from a distance. Like I said, we lucked out killing it, but it made life much easier for the next 6 levels.
I had a character in advanced that had a giant's sword he could only use when he drank an enlarge potion. I think the wizard in the party then took the enlarge spell.
In the core rulebook it says a wand is just a baton(No weapon listing in the book), a Rod is 2-3 feet long, a Staff is 4-7 feet long.
So the bard can use the wand of healing as a wand or can twirl it in their cheerleading routine. :)
It was my understanding that the resizing magical item rules referred SPECIFICALLY to changing between creature Sizes, rather than sizes between individuals of the same Size.
It was my understanding that the resizing magical item rules referred SPECIFICALLY to changing between creature Sizes, rather than sizes between individuals of the same Size.
Yes of course, because the boots can handle going from a giant to a halfling but not from a dwarf to an elf.
It was my understanding that the resizing magical item rules referred SPECIFICALLY to changing between creature Sizes, rather than sizes between individuals of the same Size.Yes of course, because the boots can handle going from a giant to a halfling but not from a dwarf to an elf.
:P
It just sounded to me like people were saying that a dwarf's boots could be an elf's boots, but a giant's boots could not be a halfling's boots.
It was my understanding that the resizing magical item rules referred SPECIFICALLY to changing between creature Sizes, rather than sizes between individuals of the same Size.Yes of course, because the boots can handle going from a giant to a halfling but not from a dwarf to an elf.:P
It just sounded to me like people were saying that a dwarf's boots could be an elf's boots, but a giant's boots could not be a halfling's boots.
Yes, I do in my games house rule that magic items can't go from large to small. There are some permanent 4th level spells that can resize magic equipment to a new size with some gold outlay.
So a wand is a baton huh...In the core rulebook it says a wand is just a baton(No weapon listing in the book), a Rod is 2-3 feet long, a Staff is 4-7 feet long.
So the bard can use the wand of healing as a wand or can twirl it in their cheerleading routine. :)
Yep, non-lethal damage only. Maybe 1-4 subdual.
Rods can be used as weapons for 1d6 damage:
Physical Description: Rods weigh approximately 5 pounds. They range from 2 feet to 3 feet long and are usually made of iron or some other metal. (Many, as noted in their descriptions, can function as light maces or clubs due to their hardy construction.)
AS i stated above, unless noted in their description, but that does NOT mean ALL rods can be used as weapons.
All the rods that list weapon damage are because of magical enhancements (lordly might, flailing et al)and are you saying a large rod would only do 1d6 damage?
come to think of it, I have NEVER seen a Giant with a ROD or a WAND for that matter.
(picturing an ettin with a rod of flailing)
naaaaasty!
Yes, I do in my games house rule that magic items can't go from large to small. There are some permanent 4th level spells that can resize magic equipment to a new size with some gold outlay.It was my understanding that the resizing magical item rules referred SPECIFICALLY to changing between creature Sizes, rather than sizes between individuals of the same Size.Yes of course, because the boots can handle going from a giant to a halfling but not from a dwarf to an elf.:P
It just sounded to me like people were saying that a dwarf's boots could be an elf's boots, but a giant's boots could not be a halfling's boots.
Please note that houserules while all nice and fine aren't really what we are looking for in the rules forum.
Just requoting the PRD for easy reference:
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn't be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
There may be rare exceptions, especially with race-specific items.
Armor and Weapon Sizes: Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being Small (01–30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31–90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91–100).
Ergo, Rings and Wearable Wondrous Items (cloaks, boots, headbands, amulets, belts) will be able to be worn regardless of its original size/shape, except when the GM says otherwise (usually for circumstantial reasons, e.g., "Interestingly enough, the 'Crown of the Storm Giant King,' remains an unwieldy and useless hula hoop in your comparatively tiny hands").
Armor and weapons are not mentioned in the above, save for the table, which makes it clear that armor and weapons do not by RAW resize.
And with apologies to Abraham, but I do have a mechanics point to make about this at the end: I think like many GMs, however, I also use a house rule to allow magic weapons and armor to resize. This was established in my case when the party was raiding a large complex overrun by goblins, far from a civilized area. I realized that if I did not allow the goblin's small gear to resize to medium, the halfling in the party was going to get everything while the humans and dwarf were screwed. While there is no demand that a party gains treasure at a specific rate, the treasure and WBL guidelines as printed certainly give the GM something to go by. If a party gains treasure it cannot use and are unable to quickly trade it off for something else, this affects how they will be able to handle upcoming encounters--and thus affects effective CR of an encounter, something a good GM needs to track carefully. Therefore, the RAW/RAI decree that weapons and armor do not resize can complicate how a GM follows the guidelines for level appropriate treasure, etc. etc. and is something to bear in mind. Of COURSE, all of this is circumstantial depending upon story and campaign and other situations (and whether the GM gives a damn at all about treasure guidelines), but I personally found it frequently problematic enough to make the house rule. I'm sure there was a much simpler, pithier way to say all of that, but will leave it to someone more adept with words than I.
Buy Grimtooth's traps ate and install the shrinking hallway in a dungeon. Maybe lesser wish will resize items.
Please note that houserules while all nice and fine aren't really what we are looking for in the rules forum.
Please note that the rules question has already been answered in this thread, about a dozen posts up. Since that point in time, the discussion has moved on, as most discussions do. They are organic. Additionally, you will note that it was stated what RAW was in the post you quoted (In that I confirmed RAW was as he had questioned). In the future, while input is useful to keep the thread on target, you are not an employee of Paizo, and have no authority nor authorization to make such comments.
In the vernacular, who died and made you the forum police? And why single me out when a dozen people have already confirmed RAW and then gone on to comment on how they don't particular care for the RAW and what they do in their home games?
grousing
Look if I bug you so much flag the post or ignore it.
House rules are all nice and all. I mean that -- I have several too -- but I try and keep such out of the place where we discuss what the actual rules are. Conversations are organic I completely agree -- this conversation has moved from a question on magic item sizes, to house rules to my position or lack there of as "forum police". I am not of course, and hopefully no one will die and make me such -- however I do remind people when we are far from what the area is supposed to cover because people do come here for what the rules say and not what others make up for their own games.
I wasn't singling you out actually: You just happened to be the last one on the pile up at the time.
In the vernacular, stay out of the kitchen if you don't like the heat. Plenty of people have been much ruder in saying as much than I have and have been such to you specifically so why worry about this one lone, non-employee of Paizo says?
After re-reading the Enlarge Person spell, I see that the RAW makes giant's gear totally worthless. To use a weapon two size classes larger you have to drop it, drink an enlarge potion, then pick it back up. Forget using a giant's magic breastplate. I don't see how you can sell it for anything but scrap metal.
After re-reading the Enlarge Person spell, I see that the RAW makes giant's gear totally worthless. To use a weapon two size classes larger you have to drop it, drink an enlarge potion, then pick it back up. Forget using a giant's magic breastplate. I don't see how you can sell it for anything but scrap metal.
Per RAW, if you pick up a giant's breast plate, and then put it on, it resizes if it's magical. Then if you drink enlarge, it grows from it's new size. Ergo, you can use it.
After re-reading the Enlarge Person spell, I see that the RAW makes giant's gear totally worthless. To use a weapon two size classes larger you have to drop it, drink an enlarge potion, then pick it back up. Forget using a giant's magic breastplate. I don't see how you can sell it for anything but scrap metal.Per RAW, if you pick up a giant's breast plate, and then put it on, it resizes if it's magical. Then if you drink enlarge, it grows from it's new size. Ergo, you can use it.
I didn't think the resizing rules applied to weapons and armor. I'll double check.
EDIT:
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn't be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
There may be rare exceptions, especially with race-specific items.
Armor and Weapon Sizes: Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being Small (01–30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31–90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91–100).
What would be the point of having random armor and weapon sizes at all if it just magically fitted the wearer?
After re-reading the Enlarge Person spell, I see that the RAW makes giant's gear totally worthless. To use a weapon two size classes larger you have to drop it, drink an enlarge potion, then pick it back up. Forget using a giant's magic breastplate. I don't see how you can sell it for anything but scrap metal.Per RAW, if you pick up a giant's breast plate, and then put it on, it resizes if it's magical. Then if you drink enlarge, it grows from it's new size. Ergo, you can use it.
I didn't think the resizing rules applied to weapons and armor. I'll double check.
EDIT:
** spoiler omitted **
What would be the point of having random armor and weapon sizes at all if it just magically fitted the wearer?
It's called MDT drove for 13 hours yesterday, and is having trouble keeping rules straight from memory. :)
Clothing resize to fit the wearer so yes, the giant cloak will shrink to human size.
Armors do not but you can resize them for a fee.
Your example however deals with full plate armor, and full plate armor follow special rules:
"Each suit of full plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith, although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4 × 100) gold pieces."
I would leave the fact that it could or could not maintain the magic bonus to GM's judgement. I would definitely have the armor lose the enchantment if you bring it from size huge to size medium, especially complex and powerful enchantment like a +5.
Clothing resize to fit the wearer so yes, the giant cloak will shrink to human size.
Armors do not but you can resize them for a fee.
Your example however deals with full plate armor, and full plate armor follow special rules:
"Each suit of full plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith, although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4 × 100) gold pieces."
I would leave the fact that it could or could not maintain the magic bonus to GM's judgement. I would definitely have the armor lose the enchantment if you bring it from size huge to size medium, especially complex and powerful enchantment like a +5.
I really don't think the resize rule for full plate is meant so that a huge full plate can become a medium full plate. I think it is meant so that the full plate you looted from that medium orc would be refitted at that cost for a medium human to wear.