even though the module recommends that the party be well in to level 9.
The difference between "just hit level 9" and "about out of level 9" is nothing and there is practically no difference between 8 and 9. Bad saves improve by one and some casters get another spell, but really.
The Summoner is just a poorly designed class. It should have been scrapped and redesigned when the Eidolon turned into a headache, IMO.
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First problem: The eidelon, at level 8 of summoner, cannot take more than 4 attacks in a round (see the Max Attacks column in the eidolon's table).
Second: Reach does not explicitly state that you can take it more than once, therefor you cannot. If you had this with Large then that's okay.
Third: The Reach ability states "one attack", not "one attack type". By a strict reading that means you only get one of those natural attacks at that extra reach (1 claw at reach, 3 claws at normal). Asymmetry?
Fourth: How did you get to +22 to-hit? I mean.. dang. Even assuming a large quadruped with the strength evolution and a belt for +4 they get a 34 strength for +12, with a BAB of +6 and size penalty of -1 for +17 total.
Anyway, I don't disagree that the Eidolon's power curve isn't right (I've disallowed it in my games, after all), but you should still use a stricter reading of the rules on this one.
Also, take advantage of the Eidolon's large size, apply squeezing penalties at every opportunity, have the bad guy's get spooked and all target him, etc. Heck, have a few mooks squeeze in on him then have the big-bad take advantage of his 4 AC drop. Those mooks can be CR 1/3 skeletons and they can still squeeze someone.
That said, it does seem that the Eidolon's early power is excessive (even when reading strictly). In my kingmaker game (TPK just into book 3) the summoner wiped the floor with most anything. They only died because the summoner themselves did something extremely stupid and took a critical for it.
EDIT: Saw below post, realized missed size penalty to attack in my post.
Summoner's eidelons can only have 5 attacks at 9th level. If you were level 8 then it could only have 4 attacks. So for reference, your eidelon was broken, as in cheating.
Also, +22 at 8th level is a little steep, and i would like to see what he was playing to make sure that other things were accounted for, such as size penalty to attack, and to make sure things weren't taken before they obtained the requisite level.
The summoner isn't the most balanced class but it doesn't help when people don't read through the rules all the way. Personally i think the ability to summon creatures as a standard action is ridiculous enough without the addition of a mega-strong monster bodyguard. This being said, i've seen eidelon's made on both the OP and UP side of the board.
The rule of thumb is on Summoner broken threads that one needs to post the summoner/eidolon build. Almost always the eidolon is misbuilt or uses homerules that changes its powercurve.
Please post the build so the DM helpers can give you advice on it.
If you check out summoner broken threads, you can find alot of common misinterpretations.
Greg
First check the math on the summoner. Every time this has come up there were math rules broken for the build.
How you played
*As written the party has a straight line to him with no barriers. I don't like the idea of my bad guys being surrounded by warriors.
PS: For the eidolons attack bonus was the penalty for size included?
PS2: I look at my players character sheets every once in a while so I know what they can do. My vordai had an AC of 30 or higher. I can't recall the exact number off the top of my head.
I dropped the wall, the summons teleported to the casters.
I can't believe I have been playing all these years, and I never noticed that. I still could have used the summons for barriers while I bombarded the party with spells. Thanks.
PS:I had to read summon monster spell twice.
I dropped the wall, the summons teleported to the casters.I can't believe I have been playing all these years, and I never noticed that. I still could have used the summons for barriers while I bombarded the party with spells. Thanks.
PS:I had to read summon monster spell twice.
That is why I love these boards, I am always learning rules better and making for a better game for my group because of it.
PS I missed it as well.
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Just fed your Eidolon into HeroLab.
He's missing Limbs-Claws so he will only attack twice a round, not 4 (or he has to drop 2 evolution points)
Strength is 30, not 32.
Dex is 13, not 19.
Con is 17, not 21.
Biped speed is 30 feet not 40.
Great Sword attack bonus is +12, not +17
Great Sword damage is 2d6+14 not 2d6+16
He is missing the feat: Martial Weapon Proficiency (to equip great sword)
His max HP is 59 not 83, that includes a favored class bonus of +1 per HD to eidolon
Conclusion: he has made so many incredibly large mistakes, he is probably intentionally cheating (or spent 2 mins speed-reading the class description) like 90% of the summoner posts on this forum.
I am on my iPad so cannot go over everything exactly but. His stats seem way to high. Unless that is with buffs.
Secondly with the weapon and natural attacks, remember if it attacks with the great sword it cannot use any natural attacks on that limb and any other natural at a is it does become secondary attacks.
Insure someone can do a more through review. On a side note make sure the potions are not floating ins space.
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Just fed your Eidolon into HeroLab.
Strength is 30, not 32.
Dex is 13, not 19.
Con is 17, not 21.
Biped speed is 30 feet not 40.
Great Sword attack bonus is +12, not +17
Great Sword damage is 2d6+14 not 2d6+16
He is missing the feat: Martial Weapon Proficiency (to equip great sword)
His max HP is 59 not 83, that includes a favored class bonus of +1 per HD to eidolonConclusion: he has made so many incredibly large mistakes, he is intentionally cheating like 90% of the summoner posts on this forum.
Strength could be 32. 16 base + 4 Item, +3 Strength increases from Summoner level, +1 increase at 4 HD, +8 Size.
The speed is something of a gray area. On one hand, the Large evolution doesn't specifically say the eidolon's speed increases, but on the other, being large generally increases your speed.
Great Sword attack bonus is indeed +17 (+11 Strength, +6 Base Attack, +1 Weapon Focus, -1 Size).
The Weapon Training evolution gives proficiency.
Conclusion: I have no idea why you assume the player is cheating.
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But yeah, this thing is an offensive tank. However, the player has sacrificed its defense to do so. With only 6 HD and 17 Con, it should only have 51 HP (Eidolons don't get max hp at first level, nor do they get favored class bonuses since they don't have a class). Additionally, it should only have 19 AC, which is pitiful at level 8. If any Fighter or Barbarian gets a full attack on this thing, it's going straight down. Additionally, its saves are REALLY weak (with the edited Consitution and Dexterity, its Fort is +7, its Reflex is +4, and its Will is +5). Most spellcasters shouldn't have an issue casting something like Dismissal or even a solid empowered evocation to take it out.
What is herolab?
Btw, when the Eidelon made 6 attacks, he was hasted and made 4 nat. attacks and one with the greatsword.
-Jamie
HeroLab is a character generation program by Lone Wolf Development.
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Strength could be 32. 16 base + 4 Item, +3 Strength increases from Summoner level, +1 increase at 4 HD, +8 Size.The speed is something of a gray area. On one hand, the Large evolution doesn't specifically say the eidolon's speed increases, but on the other, being large generally increases your speed.
Great Sword attack bonus is indeed +17 (+11 Strength, +6 Base Attack, +1 Weapon Focus, -1 Size).
The Weapon Training evolution gives proficiency.
Conclusion: I have no idea why you assume the player is cheating.
Strength can't be 32. He posted the items and there are no +str items.
Speed can't be 40 feet unless it's a new house rule which he didn't post.
GreatSword is not +12, +17. You are using the incorrect strength and BAB is +5, not +6 (Eidolons don't gain +1 HD per level). You also aren't applying the penalty for claws and sword on the same arm.
The weapon training does NOT give proficiency, only simple weapon proficiency (Great Sword is martial). So he must burn 2 evolution points on Weapon Training - Martial.
He can't make 6 attacks with haste.
All of his saves are +1 too high (unless he includes the Summoner spamming the Resistance 0-level spell, which is possible)
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+1 @ Kilroy Summoner
If he has four arms, ending in a claw he could do the following:
Claw/claw/claw/claw (all at full) OR
Greatsword/Claw/Claw, with the claws as secondary (-5 to-hit and half strength) and the greatsword taking TWFing penalties (which would be -6 since he lacks the feat).
In other words, +full/+full/+full/+full or +full-6/+full-5/+full-5. With haste you could add another +full to the first, or another +full-5 (or full-6) to the second. This still isn't 6 attacks.
The reason you can't get all four claws and the greatsword is that you are not allowed to use the same limb more than once in a full-round attack.
In short, you have a *lot* of problems with how that creature is constructed/run, all of which lean towards more power. It's no mystery why it ends up way too powerful in that light.
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So Str should be 28 (including +1 from 4 hit dice)
It can be 30 due to 'Summoner's Call - Strength' feat on the summoner himself.
Hit points - 6d10 (max 60) + 18 (Correct con mod *6) = max 78 (if Human using racial favored class bonus for summoner add 8)
There is no rolling on non-PCs. Eidolons get a flat 5.5 (half of d10) per HD +1/HD from favored class +1/HD from Con = 59
The additional claws evolution technically is legal per raw as it can be applied to the limbs(legs) evolution once.
He doesn't have the evolution points spent for additional claws so it is using the base form claws which are on the hands (read the slam text - it was clarified in another thread).
Seriously, it is nearly impossible to create a legal Summoner as written for most folks who skim the APG instead of spend hours going through cascading rule exceptions. If you want to play a legal Summoner, you almost have to post the build (where others will tear it apart) or buy Hero Lab. As a DM, I would certainly assume anyone's summoner broke at least 4 rules...
I wish they'd errata out several of the Summoner exceptions and simplify the class (without adding/subtracting to the balance). A class that nearly requires software to determine legality is bad.
There is no rolling on non-PCs. Eidolons get a flat 5.5 (half of d10) per HD +1/HD from favored class +1/HD from Con = 59
I was not familiar with this, what page can I find this info? This is turning into a very informative thread.
Greg
Here
That thread seems specific to PFS, though. Is that relevant here?
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HereThat thread seems specific to PFS, though. Is that relevant here?
You are absolutely correct. Sorry, all I ever play is PFS and I forgot there are people who don't :)
off hand I do not know the page number but all summoned critters use average HP, as do all pets such as animal companions and Eidolons.
Killroy is correct the Eidolon gains 5.5 per level or 11 hp ever 2 levels.
So is that a PFS ruling only? or a Core rule. It actually matters to me. I don't play PFS ever. I can take it as a suggested house rule if it is PFS. Anyway, thanks for input and do not mean to derail the summoner thread.
hp: The creature's hit points, followed by its Hit Dice (including modifiers from Constitution, favored class levels, creature type modifiers, and the Toughness feat). Creatures with PC class levels receive maximum hit points for their first HD, but all other HD rolls are assumed to be average. Fast healing and regeneration values, if any, follow the creature's HD.
Also from the FAQ
What creatures get max hit points for their first level or first Hit Die?
Creatures whose first Hit Die is from a PC-appropriate character class gain max hit points for that Hit Die. The current list of PC-appropriate character classes is alchemist, barbarian, bard, cavalier, cleric, druid, fighter, inquisitor, monk, oracle, paladin, ranger, rogue, sorcerer, summoner, witch, and wizard (including archetypes, subclasses, and other variants of these classes).
Creatures whose first Hit Die is from an NPC class (adept, aristocrat, commoner, expert, warrior) or from a racial Hit Die (such as most monsters) do not get maximum hit points for that Hit Die
So we see that only PC classes gain max HP at level one and all non pc classes, pets or monster are assumed to have average HP..which is 5.5 for the Eidolon. He would have 5 hp + con mod at level one
This is core rule not something from PFS.
If your looking for page number it is on page 6 of the bestiary.
There is no rolling on non-PCs. Eidolons get a flat 5.5 (half of d10) per HD +1/HD from favored class +1/HD from Con = 59
I was not familiar with this, what page can I find this info? This is turning into a very informative thread.
Greg
There is no rule supporting that anywhere. However for the sake of consistency and simplicity, all monsters shown in the Bestiary (and sometimes other products) have exactly average HP as shown above.
Some GMs use the listed HP value of monsters and NPCs for expediency's sake, whereas others roll the monsters HP to add some variety. Both methods are right.
I personally believe the player needs to roll the HP of his eidolon.
There is no rule supporting that anywhere..
Incorrect. Page 6 of the bestiary and the online FAQ make it clear. Only critters with PC class levels get to roll HP or gain max at level 1. Every thing else by RAW uses average hp. The chart for which can be found on page 293 of the bestiary.
Incorrect. Page 6 of the bestiary and the online FAQ make it clear. Only critters with PC class levels get to roll HP or gain max at level 1. Every thing else by RAW uses average hp. The chart for which can be found on page 293 of the bestiary.There is no rule supporting that anywhere..
The entry on page 6 of the Bestiary is explaining how things are listed in the stat blocks so as to be consistent. It is not a hard rule for how all non-PCs must do their HP. Look up any module. Monsters of the same type often have differing amounts of HP.
Also, I see nothing in the Bestiary FAQ referring to this imaginary rule you speak of.
I have opened another thread in RULES to discuss this so as not to derail this topic. I for one do enjoy seeing responces to Summoner threads b/c I have yet to have a player use one, but I do want to avoid many of the pitfalls I have seen. It makes it easier on me if someone else finds all the stumbling blocks so I can look like I really know something :)
Greg
The entry on page 6 of the Bestiary is explaining how things are listed in the stat blocks so as to be consistent. It is not a hard rule for how all non-PCs must do their HP. Look up any module. Monsters of the same type often have differing amounts of HP.
Also, I see nothing in the Bestiary FAQ referring to this imaginary rule you speak of.
I listed both the rule and the FAQ about who gets max hp. There is nothing imaginary about it. If you roll them is a house rule. Pure and simple. By RAW all non player classes use average HP.
It is part of the core rule FAQ. I listed that as well. No need to repeat it twice , it is in black an white {and some other colors] in the second core book. If it is not a pc class and does not have PC class levels it uses average hps.
The entry on page 6 of the Bestiary is explaining how things are listed in the stat blocks so as to be consistent. It is not a hard rule for how all non-PCs must do their HP. Look up any module. Monsters of the same type often have differing amounts of HP.
Also, I see nothing in the Bestiary FAQ referring to this imaginary rule you speak of.
I listed both the rule and the FAQ about who gets max hp. There is nothing imaginary about it. If you roll them is a house rule. Pure and simple. By RAW all non player classes use average HP.
It is part of the core rule FAQ. I listed that as well. No need to repeat it twice , it is in black an white {and some other colors] in the second core book. If it is not a pc class and does not have PC class levels it uses average hps.
A link would have been better. I thought you meant the Bestiary FAQ.
*looks at core FAQ*
Creatures whose first Hit Die is from a PC-appropriate character class gain max hit points for that Hit Die. The current list of PC-appropriate character classes is alchemist, barbarian, bard, cavalier, cleric, druid, fighter, inquisitor, monk, oracle, paladin, ranger, rogue, sorcerer, summoner, witch, and wizard (including archetypes, subclasses, and other variants of these classes).
Creatures whose first Hit Die is from an NPC class (adept, aristocrat, commoner, expert, warrior) or from a racial Hit Die (such as most monsters) do not get maximum hit points for that Hit Die.
All creatures with class levels (including those with levels in an NPC class or monsters with class levels) may select a favored class and gain the normal favored class benefits. Creatures never gain favored class benefits for racial Hit Dice.
For example, a human warrior 1 could select "warrior" as his favored class and take either the bonus hit point or skill rank for taking a level in that class. A normal bugbear with 3 racial Hit Dice and no class levels has no favored class and no favored class bonuses, but if that bugbear gained a level in rogue, he could choose "rogue" as his favored class and take either the bonus hit point or skill rank for taking a level in that class.
(SKR 9/3/10)
–Sean K Reynolds (09/03/10)
It doesn't say anything about non-PCs always getting average HP.
If I have anything more to say, I will say it in the appropriate thread. (Thanks Greg!)
Sigh, even though it clearly back up what the Bestiary says about non pc class HD and hp, you are choosing to ignore a rule because it just happens to be in the book, which covers beasts?
Sorry man, but the rule covers all critters HD that do not have pc levels. This includes summoned beasts, Animal companions and Eidolons.
It is part of the rules.
Sigh, even though it clearly back up what the Bestiary says about non pc class HD and hp, you are choosing to ignore a rule because it just happens to be in the book, which covers beasts?
Sorry man, but the rule covers all critters HD that do not have pc levels. This includes summoned beasts, Animal companions and Eidolons.
It is part of the rules.
You're taking "NPCs don't automatically get Max HP at 1st level/HD" and somehow getting from there to "You may not roll their HP ever."
This doesn't follow.
I don't have the book in front of me, but if I remember correctly, you can't put claws on the bipeds feet. They can only be put on one set of feet, and only if the creature is quadruped (or has purchased a second set of legs).
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At 8th level the eidolon get 11 evolution points.
Starting from the bottom of that list:
Large - 4
Reach - 1
Energy Attack Cold - 2
Weapon Training - 2
Improved Damage Claws - 1
(10 points so far)
Limbs (legs) - Free
Limbs (arms) - Free
Claws x2 - 1 set Free, 1 set purchased with remaining 1 point. One set on the arms, one set on the legs.
You are missing the Martial Weapon Training evolution which costs 2 points.
The confusion over claws on the feet comes from the rake evolution for quadrupeds. I inferred thiscwasvthe only waybto getvclaws on the feet but doesn't actually say that anywhere