A player of mine made a magus that utilizes Preferred Spell/Spell Perfection with, of all spells, color spray.
He heightens it up to a 9th-level spell and blasts nearby enemies with it during spell combat, all the while only giving up a 1st-level spell slot. The fact that he has Rings of Wizardry I and pearls of power also means he will never run out of stun lock capability. If the enemy makes his save, he hits them with a quickened heightened (5th) color spray with a slightly lower DC.
Many other spellcasters can do this (stun lock), but only the magus can stun lock AND disarm AND make a full attack against the enemy all in the same round. I am having a hard time challenging this relatively simple (but high level) combo short of using long range attack forms against him.
Hmm...
It's an illusion, pattern and mind affecting, allowing spell resistance.
Aside from SR and a higher will save, there are a few ways around it:
1) Sucking up the blindness penalties and closing your eyes.
2) True Seeing bypasses it completely.
3) Attacking further than 15' from the magus.
4) Flanking him so that one is always useful and hindering the magus.
|
A player of mine made a magus that utilizes Preferred Spell/Spell Perfection with, of all spells, color spray.
He heightens it up to a 9th-level spell and blasts nearby enemies with it during spell combat, all the while only giving up a 1st-level spell slot. The fact that he has Rings of Wizardry I and pearls of power also means he will never run out of stun lock capability. If the enemy makes his save, he hits them with a quickened heightened (5th) color spray with a slightly lower DC.
Many other spellcasters can do this (stun lock), but only the magus can stun lock AND disarm AND make a full attack against the enemy all in the same round. I am having a hard time challenging this relatively simple (but high level) combo short of using long range attack forms against him.
Toss some creatures at him that are immune to Mind-Affecting spells. Undead, oozes, and constructs are all good bets. Enemy casters with spell turning/countering/dispelling capabilities, archers with readied actions to disrupt spellcasters are always a good bet. Have an enemy caster drop a simple silence spell on a melee brute and have the brute stick to the Magus like glue. Use the Grab combat maneuver to steal his beltpouches containing his spell components.
Or if your feeling particularly evil that week, use his own tactics against him. Have him fight his double/mirror clone, or an NPC magus with the same trick..
There's dozens of solutions, be creative. Good luck.
2) True Seeing bypasses it completely.
I don't believe this is true. The ability to see it as an illusion doesn't mean you are wholly unaffected by its mind altering aspects.
Or "see through illusion", or letting you bypass any effects of the illusions...
Well heighten spell is akwardly worded, but the way it is, I am 85 % sure it works, and 15 % that the combination does nothing.
Still, a good catch and at level 15 it isn´t all that scary.
Still, a good catch and at level 15 it isn´t all that scary.
yeah kind of my feeling. It's an illusion, mind affecting, and has SR. There's a lot of stuff it won't affect, especially at level 15+ which is the earliest he can pull this off. Furthermore the Magus is giving up 3 feats and combat ability to pull this off. Just make sure to throw things at him that have a good will save, SR, are immune to mind affecting (or any combination thereof) and can eat him alive when the trick fails to work and he's stuck in melee range.
Gah. Forgot about stunning assault. Doesn't seem so great when even the fighter can do it, and while dealing with less resistances.
Heightens it to 9th level? Magus can only cast up to 6th.
Rings of Wizardry and Pearls of Power give you 1st level spell slots, how is that helping create 5th level and 9th level spells?
I just can't even fathom how this character is even beginning to attempt this "combo".
If you're doing all of this using Pool points, he won't be stunlocking for long at all considering the cost of casting a first level spell with +8 to its spell level through heighten spell is 9 pool points....even with +10 Int mod you max out at 20 pool points at Magus level 20.
I could be missing a lot of things here, but this seems like it doesn't work on just about every possible level.
Heightens it to 9th level? Magus can only cast up to 6th.
Rings of Wizardry and Pearls of Power give you 1st level spell slots, how is that helping create 5th level and 9th level spells?
I just can't even fathom how this character is even beginning to attempt this "combo".
If you're doing all of this using Pool points, he won't be stunlocking for long at all considering the cost of casting a first level spell with +8 to its spell level through heighten spell is 9 pool points....even with +10 Int mod you max out at 20 pool points at Magus level 20.
I could be missing a lot of things here, but this seems like it doesn't work on just about every possible level.
You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
As you can see, Spell Perfection from the APG allows you to apply a metamagic feat to a single spell for free (no level slot increase and no increased casting time) so long as the combined "effective slot" is not over 9th. It doesn't matter what your actual maximum slot is.
A 15th-level sorcerer capable of only casting 7th-level spells, could spam a quickened cone of cold (despite not having a 9th-level spell slot) every single round until he ran out of 5th-level spell slots.
I prefer perfecting lower level spells though, as it gives me more staying power. If I chose fireball for my 15th-level half-orc sorcerer/dragon disciple, for example, I could hit you with an intensified maximized fireball (142 damage) for only a 4th-level slot and then hit you with a quickened intensified fireball (~74.5 damage) for another 4th-level slot, all in one round.
Combined with a metamagic rod or two and it can get real nasty real quick.
Spell Perfection was the first real bone thrown to damage dealing spellcasters.
Director of Games
|
I am still looking into this, and this is a totally unrelated issue really, but of note..
I am not sure that Spell Perfection and Heighten Spell work together in any way. Spell Perfection prevents a spell from having its level increased by a metamagic feat, and that is really all that Heighten Spell does. Without the level increase, Heighten Spell does not do anything.
Still investigating.. but this is not really a Magus issue.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
|
I am still looking into this, and this is a totally unrelated issue really, but of note..
I am not sure that Spell Perfection and Heighten Spell work together in any way. Spell Perfection prevents a spell from having its level increased by a metamagic feat, and that is really all that Heighten Spell does. Without the level increase, Heighten Spell does not do anything.
Still investigating.. but this is not really a Magus issue.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
That's an interesting point. Can you increase a spell's level without increasing its level?
Like Jason (and my GM in all likelihood), I suspect no.
I am still looking into this, and this is a totally unrelated issue really, but of note..
I am not sure that Spell Perfection and Heighten Spell work together in any way. Spell Perfection prevents a spell from having its level increased by a metamagic feat, and that is really all that Heighten Spell does. Without the level increase, Heighten Spell does not do anything.
Still investigating.. but this is not really a Magus issue.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Please don't change Spell Perfection! It's the one bone that's been tossed to damage dealing spellcasters in a long time.
Perhaps a FAQ clarification stating that since Spell Perfection doesn't raise the level, it cannot be used with Heighten Spell? Yes, if it is that much of a concern for you as a developer and GM, I think that, that would be the best way to handle it. It fixes the perceived problem without any other unforeseen ramifications that an errata'd change of wording might have.
|
Director of Games
|
Please don't change Spell Perfection! It's the one bone that's been tossed to damage dealing spellcasters in a long time.
Perhaps a FAQ clarification stating that since Spell Perfection doesn't raise the level, it cannot be used with Heighten Spell? Yes, if it is that much of a concern for you as a developer and GM, I think that, that would be best. It fixes the perceived problem without any other unforeseen ramifications.
I don't have a problem with Spell Perfection as a whole. I do have a problem with using it with Heighten Spell. Its kinda ridiculous.
Looking into it..
Jason
I don't have a problem with Spell Perfection as a whole. I do have a problem with using it with Heighten Spell. Its kinda ridiculous.
Looking into it..
Jason
How does it seem ridiculous? From a conceptual perspective? Or from a balance perspective?
If it is the latter, I don't think there is too much of a concern. To get the most out of the combo, you would have to perfect a low level spell. Except then, you have mastered a crappy spell (you only ever get one). If you instead go for a higher level spell, you will only get the DC up a few points.
The fact that Spell Perfection only allows ONE free metamagic feat is also a big balancing factor. Any spell upping it's DC as much as possible is one that isn't getting quickened, maximized, or anything else for that matter.
Spell Perfection needs to be erratta'd to make sure that classes who can't cast above 6th level or whatever aren't sneaking 9th level spells out with this feat. That is a total loop-hole. In theory-craft it works. I doubt it would be allowed at a table. Using it with heightened spell almost certainly wouldn't. I don't even think it works.
Either way, it's a nice loophole catch along the lines of Magus qualifying for Dragon Disciple though Pool Spell.
At my table, the heighten spell wouldn't work (if you add one, and subtract one, you don't wind up with more than you started with), but I don't see a reason to not let a magus cast 9th level spells through this.
At my table, the heighten spell wouldn't work (if you add one, and subtract one, you don't wind up with more than you started with), but I don't see a reason to not let a magus cast 9th level spells through this.
Agreed. It is a 15th-level feat with a ton of prerequisites. It should be powerful. If they did make the errata you describe, Sylvanite, I would never forgive you. It's not a loop hole if that's the way the feat works.
Jason already said he was fine with the feat. Leave it be. This isn't a discussion for the playtest boards anyhow.
It's a loophole if that's how it works, but not how it was intended to work. If it's supposed to grant classes with limited casting the ability to exceed those limitations, then that's fine. I don't have as big of a problem with that by any stretch as I do with using it with Heighten Spell.
It's a discussion for the playtest boards if it's being used in combination with the class being playtested. Which it is. It's worth the clarification.
I don't have a problem with Spell Perfection as a whole. I do have a problem with using it with Heighten Spell. Its kinda ridiculous.
The first thing I did when I read this thread was reread Spell Perfection and Heighten Spell very closely and look for errata on both to see if they really could work together. The combination really seems unintended.
I don't have a problem with Spell Perfection as a whole. I do have a problem with using it with Heighten Spell. Its kinda ridiculous.The first thing I did when I read this thread was reread Spell Perfection and Heighten Spell very closely and look for errata on both to see if they really could work together. The combination really seems unintended.
I can see why James thinks its unintended, he designed it, but I don't understand how it seem unintended just by the reading of it.
I read it, and it looked like a perfectly legal combo to me.
It says "you may apply whatever metamagic without affecting the spell level". The last half denies the usefulness of Heighten Spell: either you can't use it because it affects the spell level...or you can but since the feat locks the spell's level it won't make any difference.
It says "you may apply whatever metamagic without affecting the spell level". The last half denies the usefulness of Heighten Spell: either you can't use it because it affects the spell level...or you can but since the feat locks the spell's level it won't make any difference.
Ah. Guess I've been using it wrong then.
Personally I wouldn't mind if one could use heighten for free through spell perfection...you did PERFECT the spell after all, and it doesn't seem to have a clause saying you can buy it again for other spells, so you can only ever perfect one spell.
Wording that allowed it would be "without affecting the spell level". Probably with a clause to remind you you do need to meet the modified level's minimum stat to cast it (like 19 for a lvl 9 spell).