The Stats for the Biped would have 17 Str, and 13 Con. With d10s for hitpoints, we are looking at (even if he rolled instead of averaged) a max of 33 hitpoints.
The summoner has augment summoning.. +4 con for a 3HD = +6 hp right?
This only works if he casts "Summon Eidolon". The feat specifically does not help abilities, it only improves spells.
If the summoner uses one of his 2nd level spells for Summon Eidolon to get that boost, he doesn't have his buff suite to get the stats I mentioned for his "always there" version of his Eidolon.
That, and the spell only lasts 4 minutes per cast, and so would only be boosted for 2 fights.
The summoner was dismissing his pet after each combat and then summoning him whenever fight broke.... so it's practicly never ending!
As was mentioned, he'd be spending 10 rounds of combat to summon his Eidolon (or wasting 1 full round to cast the Summon Eidolon spell, which could only be done twice a day).
However, that's not the duration I was talking about. Enlarge Person, Bear's Endurance and Bull's Strength will only last 4 minutes per day. The spells continue to count down while the Eidolon is dismissed... so it's still a short lived one-trick pony.
Note, it's a good idea to keep track of when the Summoner is trying to cast spells or use abilities. Enlarge Person and Summon Eidolon both take 1 round to cast, which means he can be interrupted by being attacked.
Plus, to fully buff up with protection magic and stat boosters, you are looking at not having the full buff suite up until about 4-5 rounds into combat.
In my experience with low levels, unless you are the type of group to get the jump on people, you are likely going to be in a combat situation with only a round or two notice, if not starting immediately (or worse, a surprise round).
Make sure the Summoner's Eidolon isn't walking into combat with a pile of buff magic stacked on without taking into account everything involved with making it happen.
I'm guessing quite of bit of headache can be avoided as long as you enforce all the restrictions involved with this build.
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>>The summoner has augment summoning.. +4 con for a 3HD = +6 hp right?
It is officially ruled that this feat doesn't apply to Eidolons, just search the forums.
>>The summoner was dismissing his pet after each combat and then summoning him whenever fight broke.... so it's practicly never ending!
This is also against the rules. Any time you summon your Eidolon it is a FULL MINUTE action and the Eidolon has the same HP as last time (no heal)
In the Beta rules (1st incarnation), the Eidolon healed when summoned, but could only be summoned once per day. In the second/final beta version, he didn't heal.
In the APG, he doesn't heal, but can be summoned an unlimited times per day (unless he dies).
If you are going to continue to let the player keep his Summoner character, I'd really suggest reading carefully through the class, keeping close attention to the restrictions involved with his spells and abilities.
The Eidolon mechanic does one thing well: it gives a wide variety of options for the player to mess around with. It can have potential to drastically break the game if any of the restrictions are overlooked or misinterpreted.
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>>The summoner has augment summoning.. +4 con for a 3HD = +6 hp right?
It is officially ruled that this feat doesn't apply to Eidolons, just search the forums.
>>The summoner was dismissing his pet after each combat and then summoning him whenever fight broke.... so it's practicly never ending!
This is also against the rules. Any time you summon your Eidolon it is a FULL MINUTE action and the Eidolon has the same HP as last time (no heal)
Well- there are exceptions in the Summon Eidolon spell as others have said above. It is a summoning spell so Augment Summoning can apply, but only for the duration of this spell. It also lets him get around the 10 rounds of summoning it would normally take to call the eidolon, but it is his highest level spell slot and he can only pull that maneuver twice per day and then by excluding all other 2nd level spells.
He absolutely cannot dismiss the eidolon with the intention of banking a buff he has cast on it for later. The duration expires as normal. The eidolon also returns as injured as it was when he dismissed it.
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The summoner was dismissing his pet after each combat and then summoning him whenever fight broke.... so it's practicly never ending!Summon eidolon is a 2nd level spell, so at 4th level he shouldn't be able to cast it more than two times a day.
3X per day actually because of a pearl of power 1.
Summon eidolon is a level 1 spell right?
3X per day actually because of a pearl of power 1.
Summon eidolon is a level 1 spell right?
No sir. It's a 2.
2nd level spell, actually (hence the max 2x per day assuming a high Cha). It'd take a 4k magic item to get a third casting... which is tough to come by for a 4th level character (goes over the assumptions of the WBL guidelines).
Just to note.. if you let the Summoner have a 4k magic item to get an extra 2nd level spell, then the Barbarian could just as easily have a 4k magic item to have a permanent Enlarge Person effect on himself (1st level spell x 1st level caster x 2000gp for continuous x 2 for a spell measured in rounds, 4k gold).
I had one for a 3.5e Spiked Chain wielding, Trip-focused, Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Rogue character back in my powergaming days.
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The summoner has augment summoning.. +4 con for a 3HD = +6 hp right?
This only works if he casts "Summon Eidolon". The feat specifically does not help abilities, it only improves spells.
If the summoner uses one of his 2nd level spells for Summon Eidolon to get that boost, he doesn't have his buff suite to get the stats I mentioned for his "always there" version of his Eidolon.
That, and the spell only lasts 4 minutes per cast, and so would only be boosted for 2 fights.As was mentioned, he'd be spending 10 rounds of combat to summon his Eidolon (or wasting 1 full round to cast the Summon Eidolon spell, which could only be done twice a day).
Ok i'm still confused! So the rule says "...You open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon.Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell..."
Does it means that the only difference is in how long the eidolon will stay but otherwise it's considered as being called by a ritual so that the augment summoning feat is not valid?
The summoner has augment summoning.. +4 con for a 3HD = +6 hp right?
This only works if he casts "Summon Eidolon". The feat specifically does not help abilities, it only improves spells.
If the summoner uses one of his 2nd level spells for Summon Eidolon to get that boost, he doesn't have his buff suite to get the stats I mentioned for his "always there" version of his Eidolon.
That, and the spell only lasts 4 minutes per cast, and so would only be boosted for 2 fights.As was mentioned, he'd be spending 10 rounds of combat to summon his Eidolon (or wasting 1 full round to cast the Summon Eidolon spell, which could only be done twice a day).
Ok i'm still confused! So the rule says "...You open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon.Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell..."
Does it means that the only difference is in how long the eidolon will stay but otherwise it's considered as being called by a ritual then augment summoning feat is not valid?
You're just coming at it from the wrong end. It's the feat.
Augment SummoningYour summoned creatures are more powerful and robust.
Prerequisite: Spell Focus (conjuration).
Benefit: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.
The ritual that takes 1 minute to summon the eidelon is not a spell, it's a ritual. That means the feat can't apply to it, since the feat only applies to spells.
The feat does apply to the spell summoning, because while it is an abbreviated version of the ritual, it's a spell that allows the ritual to be shortened, and conjures forth the eidelon.
So it really has nothing to do with the ritual, it's the feat itself. The feat only applies to summon spells, and the normal 1 minute ritual is not a spell. Basically, it can only apply to something that costs a spell slot usage.
PRD wrote:
Augment Summoning
Your summoned creatures are more powerful and robust.
Prerequisite: Spell Focus (conjuration).
Benefit: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.
The ritual that takes 1 minute to summon the eidelon is not a spell, it's a ritual. That means the feat can't apply to it, since the feat only applies to spells.
The feat does apply to the spell summoning, because while it is an abbreviated version of the ritual, it's a spell that allows the ritual to be shortened, and conjures forth the eidelon.
So it really has nothing to do with the ritual, it's the feat itself. The feat only applies to summon spells, and the normal 1 minute ritual is not a spell. Basically, it can only apply to something that costs a spell slot usage.
I wish they named the spell Call Eidolon instead of Summon Eidolon so that there would be no justification for the feat to ever work on it.
The summoner has augment summoning.. +4 con for a 3HD = +6 hp right?
This only works if he casts "Summon Eidolon". The feat specifically does not help abilities, it only improves spells.
If the summoner uses one of his 2nd level spells for Summon Eidolon to get that boost, he doesn't have his buff suite to get the stats I mentioned for his "always there" version of his Eidolon.
That, and the spell only lasts 4 minutes per cast, and so would only be boosted for 2 fights.As was mentioned, he'd be spending 10 rounds of combat to summon his Eidolon (or wasting 1 full round to cast the Summon Eidolon spell, which could only be done twice a day).
Ok i'm still confused! So the rule says "...You open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon.Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell..."
Does it means that the only difference is in how long the eidolon will stay but otherwise it's considered as being called by a ritual so that the augment summoning feat is not valid?
Agree with sentiments of mdt above. Beat me to the answer :)
Just a quick opinion on the spell.....when you summon it does it come with full hit points for the duration of the spell whatever it got dismissed on, or does it come with hit points it was left at. One can read it that it arrives as if was a fresh ritual summoning and thus full hp.
cheers
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Ok everything seems fine to me now:
Ritual = no augment summoning allowed.
Summon eidolon = augment summoning allowed.
One last thing about concentration:
For the spell it's all clear rulewise but what about the summoner being distracted while the 1 minute ritual?
Since it's nit a spell properly speaking what hapends with concentration?
Ok everything seems fine to me now:
Ritual = no augment summoning allowed.
Summon eidolon = augment summoning allowed.One last thing about concentration:
For the spell it's all clear rulewise but what about the summoner being distracted while the 1 minute ritual?
Since it's nit a spell properly speaking what hapends with concentration?
That's a GM question, but my personal ruling would be, it's a ritual. If the ritual is interrupted, it's interrupted. That is, if he's prevented from doing something (like is damaged, hit with a spell, someone throws a bucket of molasses on him, etc), then the ritual is ruined and has to be restarted. If you wanted to simulate spell mechanics to allow him to maintain the ritual, I'd just make it a concentration check with the same DC as casting the Summon Eidelon spell.
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It seems that for some reason i can't find any official ruling or clarification on the forum about the "1 minute ritual" of summoning NOT BEING a summoning spell in regard of augment summoning not applyable.
To me it sounds clear but for my summoner player its a source of grievance!
Can someone provide me a link or something?
As above, for it to be a spell, it would have to take up a spell slot. No slot, not a spell.
Can someone provide me a link or something?
It's more simple than you're making it out to be. Here's one simple question:
Does it cost a spell slot to summon the Eidolon?
If not, then the feat doesn't apply.
Spell like abilities qualify for feats and things that affect spells. Spell focus and augmented summoning affect SLA. The ritual to call the eidolon is not a SLA, it is a supernatural ability. SU are not affected by things that affect spells, but are considered magical for things that affect magic (like dead magic zones).Heh. I mostly brought up the Summon Monster ability as the next likely thing his player might ask about.
I don't recall any other mention of spell-like abilities being affected by spell-related feats (spell focus, augment summoning, metamagic feats, etc.) Even when the designers mentioned that Augment Summoning affected this particular ability, I seem to mention them mentioning it being an exception (though again, I have been unable to locate a quote).
Do you have a reference for spell-like abilities in general being affected by these feats? It hasn't come up yet for my players, but it might be useful at some point.
Edit: Oh, the post I'm quoting seems to have vanished.
Why is there a quicken spell-like ability feat, if quicken spell will work?
Why is there a quicken spell-like ability feat, if quicken spell will work?Spell like abilities qualify for feats and things that affect spells. Spell focus and augmented summoning affect SLA. The ritual to call the eidolon is not a SLA, it is a supernatural ability. SU are not affected by things that affect spells, but are considered magical for things that affect magic (like dead magic zones).Heh. I mostly brought up the Summon Monster ability as the next likely thing his player might ask about.
I don't recall any other mention of spell-like abilities being affected by spell-related feats (spell focus, augment summoning, metamagic feats, etc.) Even when the designers mentioned that Augment Summoning affected this particular ability, I seem to mention them mentioning it being an exception (though again, I have been unable to locate a quote).
Do you have a reference for spell-like abilities in general being affected by these feats? It hasn't come up yet for my players, but it might be useful at some point.
Edit: Oh, the post I'm quoting seems to have vanished.
Because some creatures have spell like abilities, but no ability to spell-cast. If they can't cast spells, they don't qualify for Quicken Spell.
Because some creatures have spell like abilities, but no ability to spell-cast. If they can't cast spells, they don't qualify for Quicken Spell.Why is there a quicken spell-like ability feat, if quicken spell will work?Spell like abilities qualify for feats and things that affect spells. Spell focus and augmented summoning affect SLA. The ritual to call the eidolon is not a SLA, it is a supernatural ability. SU are not affected by things that affect spells, but are considered magical for things that affect magic (like dead magic zones).Heh. I mostly brought up the Summon Monster ability as the next likely thing his player might ask about.
I don't recall any other mention of spell-like abilities being affected by spell-related feats (spell focus, augment summoning, metamagic feats, etc.) Even when the designers mentioned that Augment Summoning affected this particular ability, I seem to mention them mentioning it being an exception (though again, I have been unable to locate a quote).
Do you have a reference for spell-like abilities in general being affected by these feats? It hasn't come up yet for my players, but it might be useful at some point.
Edit: Oh, the post I'm quoting seems to have vanished.
Why make a whole new feat? Why not add verbage "also applies to SLA's" in the spell feat?
Why make a whole new feat? Why not add verbage "also applies to SLA's" in the spell feat?Because some creatures have spell like abilities, but no ability to spell-cast. If they can't cast spells, they don't qualify for Quicken Spell.Why is there a quicken spell-like ability feat, if quicken spell will work?Spell like abilities qualify for feats and things that affect spells. Spell focus and augmented summoning affect SLA. The ritual to call the eidolon is not a SLA, it is a supernatural ability. SU are not affected by things that affect spells, but are considered magical for things that affect magic (like dead magic zones).Heh. I mostly brought up the Summon Monster ability as the next likely thing his player might ask about.
I don't recall any other mention of spell-like abilities being affected by spell-related feats (spell focus, augment summoning, metamagic feats, etc.) Even when the designers mentioned that Augment Summoning affected this particular ability, I seem to mention them mentioning it being an exception (though again, I have been unable to locate a quote).
Do you have a reference for spell-like abilities in general being affected by these feats? It hasn't come up yet for my players, but it might be useful at some point.
Edit: Oh, the post I'm quoting seems to have vanished.
The 2 feats work differently. The one for normal spells increases spell level. SLA do not have spell levels to increase, so they made a seprate feat that gives you times per day.
That's a question for the dev's. However, if you look at the beastiary, they did similar things.
Two-Weapon Fighting vs Multi-Weapon Fighting. TWF could have easily been modified with a 'Special' clause saying how it worked if you have more than two arms.
Weapon Focus vs Ability Focus. Again, a special clause could have said a creature may apply this to his special attacks.
Ride By vs Fly By. Rather simple to combine the two.
I'm sure there are others.
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The summoner was dismissing his pet after each combat and then summoning him whenever fight broke.... so it's practicly never ending!Summon eidolon is a 2nd level spell, so at 4th level he shouldn't be able to cast it more than two times a day.3X per day actually because of a pearl of power 1.
Summon eidolon is a level 1 spell right?
I'd like to point out that Pearls of Power only allow prepared casters to get a spell back, not spontaneous casters like the Summoner.
Nice catch.It actually came up during a weekend game, when we were wondering where the Pearl of Power that had been found should go: a shop or a character.
Poor Inquisitor...
Ohh that sucks for him/her!
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Why is there a quicken spell-like ability feat, if quicken spell will work?
Most metamagic feats require you to use a higher level slot for the spell. Spell-like abilities don't have higher level slots to use, so you need a different feat. Metamagic feats or other feats that alter spells in some way without altering the spell's level work just fine on spell-like abilities.
Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, etc. all work just fine on spell-like abilities.
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Why is there a quicken spell-like ability feat, if quicken spell will work?Most metamagic feats require you to use a higher level slot for the spell. Spell-like abilities don't have higher level slots to use, so you need a different feat. Metamagic feats or other feats that alter spells in some way without altering the spell's level work just fine on spell-like abilities.
Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, etc. all work just fine on spell-like abilities.
Is that opinion stated like fact? or do you have a rules citation to back that up?
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Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, etc. all work just fine on spell-like abilities.Is that opinion stated like fact? or do you have a rules citation to back that up?
In the magic chapter where it describes spell-like abilities it states they work like spells and enumerates the exceptions to that general rule. It's on page 221 of the core rulebook.
Just about anything that would change the spell that the spell-like ability is based on also works on the spell-like ability. The only exception I know if is that since spell-like abilities aren't part of a caster's prepared or known spells, there aren't any higher level spell slots available for using normal metamagic feats.
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That said, the class ability to call the eidolon with a 1 minute ritual is not designated as a Spell Like Ability.
Nor is it listed as Extraordinary or Supernatural. That should probably be cleared up at some point. Makes a difference...
Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that suppress or negate magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled and counterspelled as normal.
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.
Obviously isn't Extraordinary. Spell like also provokes AoO. Supernatural does not.
Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, etc. all work just fine on spell-like abilities.Is that opinion stated like fact? or do you have a rules citation to back that up?In the magic chapter where it describes spell-like abilities it states they work like spells and enumerates the exceptions to that general rule. It's on page 221 of the core rulebook.
Just about anything that would change the spell that the spell-like ability is based on also works on the spell-like ability. The only exception I know if is that since spell-like abilities aren't part of a caster's prepared or known spells, there aren't any higher level spell slots available for using normal metamagic feats.
Correct. Spell-Like Abilities specifically work exactly like spells with a handful of very specific exceptions (no spell slots, no components, etc). "Feats that work on spells don't work on spell-like abilities" is not one of the listed exceptions. Thus, feats that work on spells do work on spell-like abilities as long as they don't depend on one of the other exceptions (as Metamagic feats do -- you can't use any Metamagic feat with a spell level adjustment on a SLA, because SLAs don't have spell slots. Debatably, you couldn't even use a +0 adjustment Metamagic feat).
That said, the class ability to call the eidolon with a 1 minute ritual is not designated as a Spell Like Ability.
Nor is it listed as Extraordinary or Supernatural. That should probably be cleared up at some point. Makes a difference...
<snip rules quotes>
Obviously isn't Extraordinary. Spell like also provokes AoO. Supernatural does not.
During the beta, we were told it was a Supernatural ability. However, you're actually missing the one ability type that, as that errata never got added into the final document, the Eidolon actually is: a Natural Ability.
Natural Abilities are an obscure type that aren't really meant for special abilities; natural attacks, natural armor, and so on are the most common Natural Abilities. However, without an Ex, Su, or Sp tag, we're only left with Natural.
The only functional difference between the two is that Supernatural abilities do not function in anti-magic fields.
Correct. Spell-Like Abilities specifically work exactly like spells with a handful of very specific exceptions (no spell slots, no components, etc). "Feats that work on spells don't work on spell-like abilities" is not one of the listed exceptions. Thus, feats that work on spells do work on spell-like abilities as long as they don't depend on one of the other exceptions (as Metamagic feats do -- you can't use any Metamagic feat with a spell level adjustment on a SLA, because SLAs don't have spell slots. Debatably, you couldn't even use a +0 adjustment Metamagic feat).Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, etc. all work just fine on spell-like abilities.Is that opinion stated like fact? or do you have a rules citation to back that up?In the magic chapter where it describes spell-like abilities it states they work like spells and enumerates the exceptions to that general rule. It's on page 221 of the core rulebook.
Just about anything that would change the spell that the spell-like ability is based on also works on the spell-like ability. The only exception I know if is that since spell-like abilities aren't part of a caster's prepared or known spells, there aren't any higher level spell slots available for using normal metamagic feats.
Slightly off topic, but I am hoping to avoid making a new thread:
Does that mean the summon SLA's used by outsiders can be affected by augment summoning, assuming the outsider had the feat?
Yes. I'm not sure that's working as intended, but Sp abilities are treated as spells, the ability is named summon, and the description for the summon universal monster rule specifically states that it works like summon monster (that third isn't necessary, as the first two satisfy all requirements of Augment Summoning, but it does provide additional "works like" confirmation).