Okay, so I'm looking at p.554-55 of the CRB and trying to sort out what's really different between temporary and permanent ability bonuses.
A belt of mighty constitution will provide a temporary +2 CON bonus for the first 24 hours after it's worn; after that the boost becomes permanent.
Okay, for the first 24 hours you get:
+1 Fort save bonus
+1 h.p. per HD
(and you'd get a +1 bonus to CON-based skills if PFRPG had any)
After 24 hours of continuous wear, the belt also grants you:
Um, nothing, as far as I can tell.
So, no added benefits except that the CON increase and resulting benefits are now "permanent" -- meaning what? I can take the belt off and still have those benefits? I can [b]sell[/] the belt and still have those benefits?
What, really, is different for that first 24 hours?
Greetings again.
Permanent means as long as the item is worn. You take it off, you lose the benefits immediately.
Ruyan.
After 24 hours, if you level up and gain a feat, you can select a feat with a feat that has a CON requirement. I can't think of any of those off the top of my head, but there might be some or might be some in the future. The same for qualifying for prestige classes or using items. Again, not sure there are any the require a certain CON, but if there are (or will be) you can qualify after 24 hours.
It's also really just for consistency. All the other stats are prereqs for some feat or such, so making a blanket rule is just easier than giving CON an exception that may or may not need to be rescinded in the future.
Greetings again.
Permanent means as long as the item is worn. You take it off, you lose the benefits immediately.
Ruyan.
This is the only sensible effect for ability boosters, so again, what's different during the first 24 hours:
Hour 1-24: Take the item off, lose the benefit immediately
Hour 25+ : Take the item off, lose the benefit immediately
With a Constitution belt, the increased Constitution after 24 hours also gives you more rounds to live if you are dying. Or a strength belt increases your carrying capacity only after 24 hours.
Greetings again.
Permanent means as long as the item is worn. You take it off, you lose the benefits immediately.
Ruyan.
This is the only sensible effect for ability boosters, so again, what's different during the first 24 hours:
Hour 1-24: Take the item off, lose the benefit immediately
Hour 25+ : Take the item off, lose the benefit immediately
See above. It's for consistency with the other stat boosters. Take special note of what headbands of Intelligence do, or belts of Strength, for characters who want them.
Perhaps I choose poorly with CON. Fine, STR.
A belt of giant strength +2 will give me, for the first 24 hours:
+1 to STR-based skill checks
+1 to melee attack rolls
+1 to weapon damage rolls that rely on STR
+1 to CMB and CMD
After 24 hours I also get
-- an increased carrying capacity according to Table 7-4 ? (Seems silly to have to wait for that to kick in.)
-- anything else?
A belt of incredible dexterity +2 will give me, for the first 24 hours:
+1 to DEX-based skill checks
+1 to ranged attack rolls
+1 to Initiative
+1 to Reflex saves
+1 to CMD
After 24 hours I also get
-- to take feats that have a DEX requirement I only meet while wearing the belt (and which I can't use if the belt is removed) ? That strikes me as a meaningless delay. So you wait one day to level up.
I need to be able to make sense of the RAW. I don't like to houserule things unless they are clearly incompatible with our group's play style. But so far I can't see any meaningful difference between hour 24 and hour 25 of a stat boosting item. (Doesn't mean there is no meaningful difference, just that I can't yet see it.)
Headbands of INT/WIS/CHA are the real issue, as they grant extra spells.
Also, why does there have to be a "meaningful" difference? What are you going to houserule out if there isn't one? I mean, 0-24 hours has a fairly substantial effect for most of them, and for some of them 25+ hours gives a bigger boost.
In my own opinion what the "24 hour rule" means is that while it might apply to the temporary ability scores first, you cannot use that ability bump to apply to your more static skills and such that are tied to your ability scores until after 24 hours.
Suppose you pick up and put on a Headband of Intellect +2. Your normal skill points per level is 4 + 1 + favored + human = 7 skill points. You pick up a Headband of Intellect +2. Congrats, your +1 to INT for all your skill points using INT just became a +2. You then level. But if it's not 24 hours duration yet, if you cannot calculate your skill points with the +1 bump. If you keep the Headband on for 24 hours and then level, you can add the +1 bump to your INT bonus, and keep the skill points even if you lose the Headband later. If the Headband is "yours" for the entire level and you level again, you keep the +1 bump to your INT score for the next level of skill points.
Taking off the Headband to sleep but keeping it "close" should not mean you lose the +1 bump instantaneously. Wearing it every waking moment should allow for a near-permanent INT bonus. Having the Headband snatched from you or damaged in battle DOES mean you lose the +1 bump immediately, in my own opinion. It's no longer "yours", or is "broken". If you can't get the Headband back in a few minutes, you lose the "24 duration" and must start over again. But that doesn't erase the with-a-level gained skill points retroactively.
It all goes back to the GM, and if they are handwaving the text or not. If they are not lenient and use the "per second" rule of keeping items on your person, well, start taking the Endurance feat so you can sleep in your armor and get a Ring of Sustenance so you don't have to take off your armor after a meal. Notice the cursed swords that say "all Good creatures gain a negative level" for as long as they are wielding the sword. That's a lot more specific text about something effecting your character.
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The big difference is with the various suite of second level spells (Bull's Strength, Cat's grace, etc) don't grant those benefits, ever.
The '24 hour' mechanic is primarily aimed at the mental stat boosting items/spells, but applies to the physical ones as well. In some cases, yes, it has a minimal effect (dexterity) in others it is significant (intelligence) It is applied across the board to keep it consistent.
Basically, to the PC, there's no kitchen timer that goes 'ding' when the 24 hours have elapsed. But the bonuses are considered 'permanent' until the item is removed.
I hope that helps.
Also, why does there have to be a "meaningful" difference?
Because a difference that makes no difference is no difference. What even designate ability bonuses granted by items as "temporary" if those items do the same thing for you after 6 seconds that they'll do for you after 6 days?
Again, maybe I shouldn't have looked first at CON. I don't see a problem with a 24 hour breaking in period before you can use the stat bonus to cast additional spells, though I suspect this will more often be handled as allowing the bonus when spells are prepared the next day rather than tracking a full 24 hour period from the time the item is first donned.
I don't see a problem with a 24 hour breaking in period before you can use the stat bonus to cast additional spells, though I suspect this will more often be handled as allowing the bonus when spells are prepared the next day rather than tracking a full 24 hour period from the time the item is first donned.
*clap, clap* (sound of applause) Here, here. Excellent point.
Also, why does there have to be a "meaningful" difference?Because a difference that makes no difference is no difference. What even designate ability bonuses granted by items as "temporary" if those items do the same thing for you after 6 seconds that they'll do for you after 6 days?
Again, maybe I shouldn't have looked first at CON. I don't see a problem with a 24 hour breaking in period before you can use the stat bonus to cast additional spells, though I suspect this will more often be handled as allowing the bonus when spells are prepared the next day rather than tracking a full 24 hour period from the time the item is first donned.
The reason, as mentioned, is to avoid spells like Bull's Strength or Fox's Cunning from granting extra things they weren't intended to do, even if extended to such a degree that they last all day. The bonuses have to be permanent in order to effect major abilities.
The real issue is the Headband of Intellect, and how skills work. Making it take 24 hours for permanent bonuses to take effect keeps a character from keeping a small stock of headbands and swapping them out to instantly become excellent at associated skills. It was even worse in 3.5, where +INT items worked immediately with boosting skills, so you could don and remove a single headband (with a pair of move actions) to completely redistribute your new skill points.
Gaining bonus spells from the mental stat boosters is also something that shouldn't be allowed from the stat boosting spells (Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, Eagle's Splendor), so again the 24 hour rule. This way a cleric, for example, can't put on a +WIS headband for some extra spell slots and, when those spells are cast, switch to a +CHA headband to improve his Channel Energy.
Dropping the permanent clause also allows someone to borrow a belt or headband, take a feat, give the item back (or sell it) and then pick up a stat boost spell whenever they need to use that feat. The permanent clause is important.
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As mentioned, I beleive the main INTENT on limiting temporary bonuses is spell slots (INT/WIS/CHA) along with preventing cheese like skill swapping (though making a permanent choice for the skill ranks per item mostly deals with that by itself). I don´t think excluding Carrying Capacity was really a design goal, they just didn´t bother detailing each and every thing a Stat could apply to.
Probably even more wierd than Bull´s Strength not increasing your carrying capacity (i.e. what Bulls are used for, pulling ploughs)
is that Barbarian Rage is exactly the same, which makes alot of iconic displays of Barbarian Strength impossible per RAW.
Stuff that ISN´T effected by ´Temp Bonuses´ (spells/effects < 1 day duration):
(for all Stats: qualifications for taking Feats/PrC´s/using Items/etc)
STR: Carrying Capacity and STR based DC´s like Barbarian Terrifing Howl Rage Power or (Bestiary) Stun. Anything that isn´t skills/att/dmg/CMB/CMD.
DEX: # of AoO´s and per RAW it doesn´t apply to melee attack rolls if using Weapon Finesse. Anything that isn´t skills/ranged att/init/AC/CMB/CMD/Reflex Save.
CON: Barbarian Rage Rounds, CON based DC´s like Poison, and other usages of CON modifier like Barbarian Renewed Vigor (which heals amount based on CON bonus) or the Rage Prophet´s application of CON bonus to Spell DCs. Anything that isn´t HPs/Fortitude Save.
INT: Spell slots, Concentration, Qualifying to cast Spell Levels, DCs and effects of non-Spell abilities including (Su) Abilities (arguably SLA DC´s are effected by Temp Bonuses), or other usages of INT bonus such as the Duelist´s INT to AC. Anything that isn´t skills/Spell DCs.
WIS: Monk Ki Pool and WIS to AC, Ability DCs like for Stunning Fist, Att/Dmg if using Guided Weapon Property Weapons or if a Zen Archer Monk Variant. Anything that isn´t skills/Will Saves/Spell DCs.
CHA: Bardic Performance usages and DCs, Leadership mods, Paladin CHA to Saves. Anything but skills/Spell and Channel Energy DCs.
Wildshaping Druids are let off easy because while form-dependent ability DCs are often keyed off of STR or CON (and thus not effected by Temp Bonuses), Polymorph spells apply the SPELL DC to all gained abilities, and Spell DCs ARE effected by Temp Bonuses.
I´m probably missing many other examples of how Temp Bonuses don´t work like the real thing, but basically anything outside the narrow ranged of allowed effects isn´t effected... As you can see, many of these examples are quite shocking and counter-intuitive (e.g. Rage STR boost doesn´t effect Rage Powers with STR based DCs). Some of the disallowed stuff on the list makes alot of sense to disallow (Daily Usages/Slots, Leadership Mod), but alot doesn´t make a whole lot of sense. Quickly compiling this list, I easily discovered ALOT things I wouldn´t have thought of right away, and that in fact conflicted with how I have been playing the game.
IMHO, there should have simply been a list of general areas that are effected by Temp Bonuses IRRESPECTIVE of the Stat, i.e if ¨DCs in general¨ were effected that would allow non-spell INT/WIS/CHA effects to benefit (including Su abilities), as well as physical-stat based DCs. Likewise for stats used in non-conventional places, like INT or WIS to AC.
...Or better, just have rules for what ISN´T effected (i.e. if something ISN´T mentioned/ doesn´t conform to a banned category it´s allowed) which would basically be anything that depends on continual/long-term capacity, e.g. Spell/Feat qualification, Slots/Rage Rounds/Ki Points/Usages per Day, Leadership Modifier. Phrase them broadly enough that as-yet-unwritten mechanics could be transparently included, e.g. a PrC using STR for Usages/Day of special ´Shows of Strength´, or a Psionics class using CON for ´Spell Slots´.
I´m hitting the FAQ flag on this one, because some of the stuff that doesn´t work just screams out Errata to me (no Temp DEX to Weapon Finesse, for example). The more people that flag it makes it more likely for somebody at Paizo to respond...
Personally, after fully seing the list of what doesn´t work with Temp bonuses, I just feel like ignoring the RAW and house-ruling it in any games I play. I know that I personally LIKE the idea that my Barbarian would have a different Load Capacity when Raging/not Raging, i.e. they are Medium Encumbered when not Raging.
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Wait a minute. Bull's strength doesn't affect carrying capacity? Does Strength drain or damage affect carrying capacity?
And, this must be specfic to Pathfinder; D&D 3.5 never distinguishes between "temporary" and "permanent" increases. (For example, the D&D Barbarian's rage lasts "A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier.".)
--Chris
(who's designed villains who use Strength-debilitating poisons to mess up PC carrying capacity)
Yes, this is new to Pathfinder.
It was even worse in 3.5, where +INT items worked immediately with boosting skills, so you could don and remove a single headband (with a pair of move actions) to completely redistribute your new skill points.
Hm? No.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicitems/wondrousitems.htm#headbandofIntellect
In 3.5 the +INT items did not give you new skill points AT ALL.