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Can someone explain to me why a Cleric with the Strength domain can't even use the Strength Surge ability on himself effectively?
It only lasts 1 round, which means the ability will wear off before the Cleric can use a Standard Action on his next turn to utilize it. The best he can do is pull off a Move Action that makes use of a Strength-related roll. I don't think this was intended, as the 3.5e Strength domain power version allowed it to be used as a free action.
I think there needs to be errata so the text reads "Until the end of the cleric's next turn". Or the ability should be changed to a Swift Action and not a Standard Action.
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Can someone explain to me why a Cleric with the Strength domain can't even use the Strength Surge ability on himself effectively?
Perhaps, before you worked yourself up to this tone, you meant that he can't use it to enhance his own attack. I think that's a reasonable limitation for a first level ability that he can use almost as freely as an orison. The cleric can do at least two effective and appropriate things as a move action: open or close a door (and hold it for the rest of the round), and move a heavy object.
I may be wrong but I believe if you activate an ability that lasts a round, it lasts until the end of the following round. So if you activate it in the middle of your turn, then at the end of your next turn it is gone, thus allowing you to use it with your following standard or full round action.
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I may be wrong but I believe if you activate an ability that lasts a round, it lasts until the end of the following round. So if you activate it in the middle of your turn, then at the end of your next turn it is gone, thus allowing you to use it with your following standard or full round action.
If you activate an effect with a one round or greater duration, the effect ends just before your initiative in whatever round is the last round of its duration. In the case of an effect with a one round duration, it comes into effect as soon as you finish activating it, then ends just before your next turn. If it requires a standard action to activate it, and it has a one round duration, then you can never benefit from it. Yes, I know. It sucks but I've complained about this in a different thread and never got a response from anyone at Paizo. I have a hard time imagining that it was the intent that a cleric of the god of strength can't benefit from this ability. Perhaps it should have been a Move action to activate, therefore allowing the cleric to actually, I don't know, get strong and then do something about it. But alas, it has not been deemed errata or FAQ worthy so do with that what you will.
I may be wrong but I believe if you activate an ability that lasts a round, it lasts until the end of the following round. So if you activate it in the middle of your turn, then at the end of your next turn it is gone, thus allowing you to use it with your following standard or full round action.If you activate an effect with a one round or greater duration, the effect ends just before your initiative in whatever round is the last round of its duration. In the case of an effect with a one round duration, it comes into effect as soon as you finish activating it, then ends just before your next turn. If it requires a standard action to activate it, and it has a one round duration, then you can never benefit from it. Yes, I know. It sucks but I've complained about this in a different thread and never got a response from anyone at Paizo. I have a hard time imagining that it was the intent that a cleric of the god of strength can't benefit from this ability. Perhaps it should have been a Move action to activate, therefore allowing the cleric to actually, I don't know, get strong and then do something about it. But alas, it has not been deemed errata or FAQ worthy so do with that what you will.
Guess we've been playing it wrong for quite a while then. Oh well, I like our way better. Do you have a page number for reference? I have a feeling the people I play with wouldn't believe me if I can't show them (o'course some of them still hold to some 3.0 concepts they couldn't shake when 3.5 came out...).
EDIT: Never mind, found it, right there on 178 in the core rulebook. I'll be damned.
Well, it's not like an Orison at all. There's a limited number of times per day you can use it.
And, yes, I agree with it being lame it's only effective on another character. Someone had mentioned on another thread that even the Paladin can use his lay on hands as a swift action for himself. But not Strength Surge (Strength) or Battle Rage (War) clerics?!
In that case, since Paizo keeps ignoring this clear screw-up (Cleric of a Strength or War god but...you can't bless YOURSELF properly with their power?), I hereby houserule it to a swift action.
It'd be nice for Paizo to do an official errata on it.
I'm currently a player in two PF games with GM's who very rarely houserule. My last character in one of the games was a half orc cleric of war and strength. The idea was he buffs himself then becomes a machine of death (add in that Enlarge Person has a ONE ROUND casting time... ugh). Note I said that WAS the idea. I didn't realize until I was half-way through the first session with the PC that he couldn't use those domain abilities on himself. I was flabbergasted. WHAT? So yeah, if and when I GM again, that babies getting houseruled. It might be the FIRST house rule on my list lol
It's a 1st-level domain power. Worth more than an orison, but not exactly a primary ability for clerics.
Lay on hands, on the other hand, is a primary ability for paladins. Those are allowed to be more powerful than nice little bonuses you get on top of spells.
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It is probably reasonable to allow a cleric to use it on himself as a move action. This lets him use it to break down doors and such, while avoiding having the 16th level cleric have a +8 enhancement bonus to strength for 10-15 rounds a day and make full attacks on those rounds.
On a related note, the Ferocity subdomain looks like it is more like what people are hoping for from the Strength domain:
Ferocious Strike (Su): Whenever you make a melee attack, you can designate that attack as a ferocious strike. If the attack hits, it deals additional damage equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum +1). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
You do get a bonus to damage instead of attack, but the action to use it is the same one used to make the attack. It is also Su instead of Sp, so you can use it in melee without provoking an AoO. It is also not an enchancement bonus, so it stacks with a magic weapon.
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If you activate an effect with a one round or greater duration, the effect ends just before your initiative in whatever round is the last round of its duration. In the case of an effect with a one round duration, it comes into effect as soon as you finish activating it, then ends just before your next turn. If it requires a standard action to activate it, and it has a one round duration, then you can never benefit from it.
I think you have that wrong, but I don't have a PF page to look at right now. It should end at the end of your next round. I know in 3.5 it was clearly at the end not the beginning of your next round.
Think of a 1st level caster Summoning. That would make all Summons useless because you spend your entire turn casting it appears, and then vanishes just before you can actually have it do anything. Even True Strike specifies the end of your next turn.
Also, by having it end before your next turn, you are actually robbing the character of time, because by the beginning of their next turn, a full round cycle has not gone by yet, not until the end of that characters actions.
That is the way I have always understood it, though I still hate the Strength Domain in Pathfinder.
They're trying to avoid the 3.5 fiasco where clerics could buff themselves up and beat the fighters around like a cat playing with a mouse. (it was worse in 3.0, where the buffs lasted hours)
Think of a 1st level caster Summoning. That would make all Summons useless because you spend your entire turn casting it appears, and then vanishes just before you can actually have it do anything. Even True Strike specifies the end of your next turn.
Actually when summoning, it is a 1 round action. You cast it during the round, and the summoned creature appears at the start of your initiative on the following round. It then lasts until your initiative in the round after that, since it has 1 round duration.
If you activate an effect with a one round or greater duration, the effect ends just before your initiative in whatever round is the last round of its duration. In the case of an effect with a one round duration, it comes into effect as soon as you finish activating it, then ends just before your next turn. If it requires a standard action to activate it, and it has a one round duration, then you can never benefit from it.I think you have that wrong, but I don't have a PF page to look at right now. It should end at the end of your next round. I know in 3.5 it was clearly at the end not the beginning of your next round.
Think of a 1st level caster Summoning. That would make all Summons useless because you spend your entire turn casting it appears, and then vanishes just before you can actually have it do anything. Even True Strike specifies the end of your next turn.
Also, by having it end before your next turn, you are actually robbing the character of time, because by the beginning of their next turn, a full round cycle has not gone by yet, not until the end of that characters actions.
Not exactly. Summon Monster takes 1 round to cast. So, before the beginning of your next turn, the monster appears. You and the monster than both act on your next turn. If you're a 1st-level caster, the monster sticks around for 1 round, which means it will disappear right before the beginning of your turn after.
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Not exactly. Summon Monster takes 1 round to cast. So, before the beginning of your next turn, the monster appears. You and the monster than both act on your next turn. If you're a 1st-level caster, the monster sticks around for 1 round, which means it will disappear right before the beginning of your turn after.If you activate an effect with a one round or greater duration, the effect ends just before your initiative in whatever round is the last round of its duration. In the case of an effect with a one round duration, it comes into effect as soon as you finish activating it, then ends just before your next turn. If it requires a standard action to activate it, and it has a one round duration, then you can never benefit from it.I think you have that wrong, but I don't have a PF page to look at right now. It should end at the end of your next round. I know in 3.5 it was clearly at the end not the beginning of your next round.
Think of a 1st level caster Summoning. That would make all Summons useless because you spend your entire turn casting it appears, and then vanishes just before you can actually have it do anything. Even True Strike specifies the end of your next turn.
Also, by having it end before your next turn, you are actually robbing the character of time, because by the beginning of their next turn, a full round cycle has not gone by yet, not until the end of that characters actions.
I get that, but if you measure the duration to end just before your next turn, that would mean that it appeares then vanishes, just before your next turn. If you measure it to the end of your next turn though, you actually get 1 rounds worth of use (as a 1st level caster).
I still couldn't find where it says the beginning of the next turn in PF, but I did note that Stunning Fist does specify the beginning of your next turn specifically. So anyone know where the beginning of your next turn came from? Maybe confussing it with spells that require concentration or an action to keep active which do end at the beginning of your next turn if not upkept?
I still couldn't find where it says the beginning of the next turn in PF
page 178, under the heading The Combat Round, third paragraph:
"When the rules refer to a "full round," they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."Can someone explain to me why a Cleric with the Strength domain can't even use the Strength Surge ability on himself effectively?
I've read through the arguments made here and am surprised that nobody proffered up a more simple, less rules-y explanation. The ability reads "you can touch a creature to give it great strength" (p. 47). Some have argued that the cleric can't use this ability on himself combat-wise. Others have claimed that this is an oversight. And the thread has somewhat branched off the rules argument concerning duration and initiative rank.
I would like to suggest, however, that the power plays out exactly as intended. Rather than looking at this and asking why it doesn't buff the cleric him- or herself, ask what is implied by an ability that operates only on some other creature. Clerics are not merely avatar-like manifestations of their gods. Rather, they are the conduits of their gods. It would behoove a god to spread his power in order to attract converts and keep the flock faithful. The cleric bestowing gifts of strength upon the laypersons he or she "preaches" to is "spreading" the "word" of his or her god. I think, in this way, the ability makes sense.
Furthermore, the cleric of a strength-domain God does get his own self-buff ability at 8th level (p.47). It would be a redundancy to have a lesser and greater version of a similar benefit. If it was intended to be used as a self-buff, the Cleric would have been given a scaling domain power instead.
Just my two cents.
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:-) no you are right, it is much better and thematic to have a bunch of priests unable to practice or participate in what they preach. :-) plus there is no better way to get converts than by showing through yourself what you faith brings. But if your quote is true in regards to the topic (not saying you are lying, I just cant check it fully yet), it actually proves my point about Summoning at 1st caster level, not to mention a lot of other spells and effects with Rounds/level durations or effects.
:-) no you are right, it is much better and thematic to have a bunch of priests unable to practice or participate in what they preach. :-)
That's a bit hyperbolic. Moreover, it's just wrong. The "selflessness" of the preacher is core to any benevolent faith. The empowerment of the warrior who fights in the name of the preacher or faith, for instance, would belong very much to any martial faith. For the manipulative and minion hoarding zealot, empowering others to fight (and die) in the name of the deity makes perfect sense.
And clerics of the strength domain do get to practice what they preach, just not until level eight. ;)
:-) no you are right, it is much better and thematic to have a bunch of priests unable to practice or participate in what they preach. :-)That's a bit hyperbolic. Moreover, it's just wrong. The "selflessness" of the preacher is core to any benevolent faith. The empowerment of the warrior who fights in the name of the preacher or faith, for instance, would belong very much to any martial faith. For the manipulative and minion hoarding zealot, empowering others to fight (and die) in the name of the deity makes perfect sense.
And clerics of the strength domain do get to practice what they preach, just not until level eight. ;)
I would agree with this; Its intended to extend the godlyness to the flock, not make the cleric himself into a fighter. Clerics are less front liners, than there to bolster those that are
:-) no you are right, it is much better and thematic to have a bunch of priests unable to practice or participate in what they preach. :-)That's a bit hyperbolic. Moreover, it's just wrong. The "selflessness" of the preacher is core to any benevolent faith. The empowerment of the warrior who fights in the name of the preacher or faith, for instance, would belong very much to any martial faith. For the manipulative and minion hoarding zealot, empowering others to fight (and die) in the name of the deity makes perfect sense.
And clerics of the strength domain do get to practice what they preach, just not until level eight. ;)
Those only apply to Strength checks and Strength skills, not CMB checks and melee attacks, which is what they should also receive.
Those only apply to Strength checks and Strength skills, not CMB checks and melee attacks, which is what they should also receive.
I would tend to agree that [edit: the Strength bonus] should extend to combat, since martial combat could be considered a feat of strength (depending on the fighting style, weapon, etc.) That concession aside, my point is that the cleric is able to demonstrate a godly, though short-lived, strength... just not early on in his career.
I believe the intent may have been that the cleric is supposed to be strong on his or her own without any deific help. The buff is there to show how how awesome-sauce it is to be as strong as the cleric who follows the strength god. One way to rationalize it, I guess.
I get that, but if you measure the duration to end just before your next turn, that would mean that it appeares then vanishes, just before your next turn. If you measure it to the end of your next turn though, you actually get 1 rounds worth of use (as a 1st level caster).
What you are missing is that the duration does not start counting until you ~finish~ casting the spell. Just before your next turn, the summon pops into existence. It then sticks around for 1 round, ending just before the turn after it popped into existence.
Major necro here - but having just rolled up the first cleric I've made in a very long time, and realized that this feature is 'hampered' considerably, i did some comparisons to other items. Some argue here that this is to be used on other people only, I suppose that's okay, but that idea doesn't really follow to other domain abilities, many of which ONLY affect the cleric (Protection, for instance, boosts the clerics saves).
I think the most troubling feature, is that the same gods that grant their clerics the ability to bestow strength on other people, most not even followers, grant the following ability to their warpriests:
Strength Surge (minor): At 1st level, as a swift action you can focus your own strength. You gain an enhancement bonus equal to 1/2 your warpriest level (minimum +1) on melee attack rolls, combat maneuver checks that rely on Strength, Strength-based skills, and Strength checks for 1 round.
Also, the 3.5 domain ability was decidedly more useful, and much more in line with what i would picture of a cleric of strength:
Granted Power
You can perform a feat of strength as a supernatural ability. You gain an enhancement bonus to Strength equal to your cleric level. Activating the power is a free action, the power lasts 1 round, and it is usable once per day.
So write up a Muscles Subdomain.
It has its situational uses, like helping someone to break an item (e.g. that annoying door you don't have the key for), to succeed in a combat maneuver (e.g. against this annoying ogre mage) or to swim despite full plate. In each of these cases it's not a boost to the cleric herself but to her martial buddy.
If you want to deal more damage yourself, there is the Ferocity or Fist subdomain.
The cleric's Strength surge was a Standard Action because a Move Action would have been weird and Swift Actions didn't exist until the APG came out. So the only alternative was a Free Action and someone probably decided that was too good (though the Travel domain power is a Free Action).
I expect that if the core rulebook were written in 2015 it would be Swift.
The cleric's Strength surge was a Standard Action because a Move Action would have been weird and Swift Actions didn't exist until the APG came out.
Swift actions have been with us since 3.0. In those days however, they were almost entirely for swift action cast spells.
You may be right (they are in CRB but I can't find any in the 3.5 SRD), but the APG is where they really took off. There are barely a dozen swift actions (and about that many immediate) in the whole CRB. This may be what makes the later classes (magus, slayer, inq) more effective than the rogue & fighter. Anyway, the strength surge should be swift.
The biggest user of swifts in the core book was probably the Paladin using lay on hands on himself.
It has its situational uses, like helping someone to break an item (e.g. that annoying door you don't have the key for), to succeed in a combat maneuver (e.g. against this annoying ogre mage) or to swim despite full plate. In each of these cases it's not a boost to the cleric herself but to her martial buddy.
If you want to deal more damage yourself, there is the Ferocity or Fist subdomain.
yeah, Fist and Ferocity would both aid in damage dealing, but for me, this is more about a feat of strength - which a cleric of strength should be able to do. The two 'fixes' I can see for this would be either swift action to activate this, or keep it a standard action, and 'gain bonus on next attack, strength check, or strength based skill check'. Personally, it would be easiest to just make it a swift, which would bring it in line with other similar abilities.
The cleric's Strength surge was a Standard Action because a Move Action would have been weird and Swift Actions didn't exist until the APG came out. So the only alternative was a Free Action and someone probably decided that was too good (though the Travel domain power is a Free Action).
I expect that if the core rulebook were written in 2015 it would be Swift.
That's why there's errata...