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There have been countless threads on character optimization from Treantmonk's wonderful guides through to the DPR Olympics. I've enjoyed reading many of these threads. However, I've never seen a discussion on killer character combinations due to synergies between builds.
I'd really like to see people's ideas for creating optimized builds that work well in tandem with another build or two. This information might also be useful to GM's looking to challenge parties with more difficult encounters.
To scope this out, let us assume 20 point builds with standard wealth for 2 or 3 characters at either level 6 or level 11. I consider levels 6 and 11 as good measuring sticks for builds as characters have come into their own by level 6 with many feat prerequisites needing BAB +6 and for spellcasters, level 3 spells are starting to become powerful. Level 11 is also useful as you can pretty much see the strength of the build by that level and +11 BAB seems to be another requirement for many of the cool combat feats.
There have been countless threads on character optimization from Treantmonk's wonderful guides through to the DPR Olympics. I've enjoyed reading many of these threads. However, I've never seen a discussion on killer character combinations due to synergies between builds.
I'd really like to see people's ideas for creating optimized builds that work well in tandem with another build or two. This information might also be useful to GM's looking to challenge parties with more difficult encounters.
To scope this out, let us assume 20 point builds with standard wealth for 2 or 3 characters at either level 6 or level 11. I consider levels 6 and 11 as good measuring sticks for builds as characters have come into their own by level 6 with many feat prerequisites needing BAB +6 and for spellcasters, level 3 spells are starting to become powerful. Level 11 is also useful as you can pretty much see the strength of the build by that level and +11 BAB seems to be another requirement for many of the cool combat feats.
As long as all the jobs are covered the group should be ok. Treantmonk covers them in his wizard handbook. Some classes do them better than others, but having a character that is competent at them is all that is needed.
There's a strong synergy between a SOD/SOS caster and a caster that focuses on summons that pack the lines for them and are around to CdG anyone that the SOD/SOS caster incapacitates. There's also a strong synergy between casters focused on summons and rogues, because they can provide flank opportunities in spades, often without the requirement to tumble into a spot where you'll get focus fired.
There's actually EVEN a synergy for blaster casters...with...other blaster casters, particularly if your GM allows APG and you both have the caster teamwork feat for casters in the APG that gives you a bonus to caster level and to spell penetration when you both have the same spell prepared (allied spellcaster I think it is). AE Blasting doesn't suck anywhere near as much when you've got a lot of it landing in the same area at once.
Excuse my ignorance, but what is SOD/SOS? The caster who summons with the rogue is a good idea. I'll have to look back over the teamwork feats you mention to see if there are any other good ones.
It occurs to me that a witch who debuffs with Evil Eye and Misfortune would be a good matchup with casters who rely on spells with a DC against the enemy.
There's a strong synergy between a SOD/SOS caster and a caster that focuses on summons that pack the lines for them and are around to CdG anyone that the SOD/SOS caster incapacitates. There's also a strong synergy between casters focused on summons and rogues, because they can provide flank opportunities in spades, often without the requirement to tumble into a spot where you'll get focus fired.
There's actually EVEN a synergy for blaster casters...with...other blaster casters, particularly if your GM allows APG and you both have the caster teamwork feat for casters in the APG that gives you a bonus to caster level and to spell penetration when you both have the same spell prepared (allied spellcaster I think it is). AE Blasting doesn't suck anywhere near as much when you've got a lot of it landing in the same area at once.
Excuse my ignorance, but what is SOD/SOS? The caster who summons with the rogue is a good idea. I'll have to look back over the teamwork feats you mention to see if there are any other good ones.
It occurs to me that a witch who debuffs with Evil Eye and Misfortune would be a good matchup with casters who rely on spells with a DC against the enemy.
SoD=Save or Die=Spells that kill you. Most of these are now downgraded to HP damage now. In 3.5 you just died if you failed the save.
SoS=Save or Suck=Sleep and Fears based spells that don't kill you, but take you out of combat. There are others
SoD=Save or Die=Spells that kill you. Most of these are now downgraded to HP damage now. In 3.5 you just died if you failed the save.
SoS=Save or Suck=Sleep and Fears based spells that don't kill you, but take you out of combat. There are others
Witches seem to have the most use for SOS/SOD spells because they shut down their opponents saves and throws fairly easily.
Plus they get a LOT of SOS/Debuff spells.Spell Focus Necromancy+enchantment, plus greater spell focus for both, and you're golden.
though, I came here expecting to see a request for people to construct two/three characters that only really work if the other characters are there, instead of just asking for what Optimized Character Optimizes other Optimized characters.
To scope this out, let us assume 20 point builds with standard wealth for 2 or 3 characters at either level 6 or level 11. I consider levels 6 and 11 as good measuring sticks for builds as characters have come into their own by level 6 with many feat prerequisites needing BAB +6 and for spellcasters, level 3 spells are starting to become powerful. Level 11 is also useful as you can pretty much see the strength of the build by that level and +11 BAB seems to be another requirement for many of the cool combat feats.
The game is built on the premise of 4 characters, 2 characters would make most encounters very very difficult just by that measuring stick alone. Or is this a "help me optimize a party to steamroll things" question? The number of characters just strikes me as odd lol.
I think the OP is just asking for combinations of classes/builds that function particularly well together.
Archer Ranger & Controller Druid is a great combination. They function well together in a roleplaying sense, as well as mechanical. The druid can shut down the battlefield with a variety of crowd control spells, and the Ranger can pelt away with arrows while enemies have no chance to reach him. The druid can even modify the terrain to give the archer a boost. Add in the ridiculous amount of pets/summons swarming the battlefield and it becomes a truly beautiful pair.
Rogue & any arcane caster is wonderful. The ability to debilitate enemies, provide concealment for the rogue, and summon flanking allies is too good to pass up. A well built rogue & arcane caster combination is particularly powerful when the rogue gains the ability to turn simple stuns into a coup de gras.
Bards & weapon users are a great combination. Inspire courage & Haste are incredibly strong buffs and take only a round to perform at levels past 7, but can equate to a huge boost in damage.
Witches & Sandman Bards are a particularly potent combination. If built to focus on shutting down enemies with fear & sleep effects the two would play quite well on each other.
Elemental based Oracles & Draconic/Elemental bloodline Sorcerers make a great pair of blasters, though an Evoker could easily be swapped in. So long as they focus on the same element the pair/trio could quickly stomp foes that aren't immune to their effects. Later on Elemental Sorcerers actually gain the ability to apply the "vulnerable" status to injured enemies, making them particularly useful to the group.
Hope that helps.
Witches + an intimidator are highly effective together. The shaken debuff of -2 to hit and saves, combined with Evil Eye against saving throws can make a bard-witch team devistating, effectively increasing all their sleep/charm save DCs by 4.
Really, rogue is a very synergistic character. Fits well in almost any group... the groups he doesn't fit well in, a bard fits in better.
I found that a Rogue and a properly played battlefield control meleeist (in my case, a two-handed weapon style ranger with pushing assault) are very synergistic. I would imagine a flail-based trip fighter and a rogue, or an inquisitor and a rogue would also be very strong.
Bard and fighter or ranger, for obvious reasons.
I think the OP is just asking for combinations of classes/builds that function particularly well together.
Thanks Sean. This is what I mean and you put it far more succinctly than I managed to do. :)
The game is built on the premise of 4 characters . . .The number of characters just strikes me as odd lol.
I agree. I think, "What synergies fit in a typical 4-5 person party" is a more interesting question.
That aside, there have been plenty of great suggestions. I want to approach the question from a slightly more theoretical perspective. There are three types of synergy I like to pursue in a party when possible: Comprehensiveness, Similarity, Complimentary
Synergy through Comprehensiveness
"Be ready for anything?"
We're all familiar with this, and it's even been mentioned in this thread. A comprehensive group will have the tools to handle any situation they come across. We frequently discuss this in terms of "Roles" in the party that need to be filled. (eg in 4th edition D&D: Striker, Controller, Leader, Defender) A party with comprehensiveness will not be shut down by:
- Energy resistance
Crit immunity
Transportation issues
Diplomacy
What you need most (in combat):
- A way to hurt the enemy. (Strikers)
A way to keep the enemy from doing whatever it is they want to do to you. (Defenders and Controllers)
A way to undo what the enemy has done to you. (Healer/Leader)
Synergy through Similarity
"A chain is as strong as it's weakest link."
This is a kind of synergy that is often neglected in D&D, but is wonderful when you have it. Some abilities are simply more useful if everyone has them. For example, in a 6th level party of Human Monk, Flying Witch, Mounted Cavalier, Halfling Wizard, the Wizard had darn well better get himself a good method of moving 40' per round or more! Because the party is only as fast & maneuverable as its slowest member.
Some abilities that are particularly useful to make similar:
- Movement speed
Movement type (fly, swim, burrow)
Energy resistance
Spell Resistance
Saving Throws (Buff up the weakest in each category.)
Stealth
Perception methods (Lowlight, Dark Vision)
Complimentary
"Chocolate and peanut butter, better together."
If you have an ability that can be multiplied, multiply it as much as possible - If there's an ability with a prerequisite, put them next to each other. For example:
- Inspire Courage (Bard) makes every attack more likely to hit and deal more damage, so it's better in a group that makes a lot of attack rolls.
If you have Sneak Attack (Rogue), then supply vulnerability to sneak attack through flanking, blinding, invisibility, grappling, surprise, etc.
If you have spellcasters, lower resistances.
I've seen some good synergy with a monk and a rogue. Monk's movement and stuns dovetailed nicely with my rogue's sneak attack. The lawful vs chaotic dichotomy made for some interesting roleplaying.
Archer bard + Sorcerer/Wizard/Druid with a good selection of SoS spells + DW Melee Fighter + Archer Paladin = sick damage synergy.
Assume level 11.
Bard, haste + bard song(+5 to hit, +4 damage, +1 attack), 4 attacks with a bow.
Paladin, Aura of Justice(+3 to hit, +11 to damage), 5 attacks with a bow.
DW fighter, 7 attacks per round, high AC, with +8 to hit and +15 damage on every attack, this is a scary damage dealer you don't want to ignore.
SoS caster.
A. I prefer the druid because they can shift into a cat and get 6 attacks per round after they have established control of the battlefield, and their summons would benefit from the bard buffs.
B. An elven wizard or sorcerer with a longbow and rapid shot would actually put up some decent damage numbers with this many archer buffs running around. It could be fun for the lols.
You have 3 classes that can cast healing spells, so a cleric isn't strictly necessary. The only real weakness is a lack of trapfinding.
Archer bard + Sorcerer/Wizard/Druid with a good selection of SoS spells + DW Melee Fighter + Archer Paladin = sick damage synergy.
I was also thinking Archer bard, but with a Druid wildshaper with animal companion.
Druid + AC + SNA critters + Mass buffing and ranged support.
For a 3rd maybe a halfling pally archer with "halfling luck" to cover saves and a bit more offense.
After reading another post which concerned the Cavalier - Order of the Dragon and swift aid feat, pick any other 2 classes that mesh well and put the cavalier in as a walking buff stick. Seriously. Maybe throw in some teamwork feats to spice things up (So I guess one of those 2 should be an Inquisitor).
They get to add an additional +3 (increases with level) to AC, hit, saves or skills whenever they aid another. Aid another is a standard action that gives +2 hit or AC, Swift Aid allows you to aid another as a swift action and provides a +1 to hit or AC. Just need to find them something useful to do with that move action.
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Druid + Ranger + Animal companions, all with lookout.
So Druids, Rangers, and Animals all tend to have high perception, and can be built for stealth. Just set up as many suprise rounds as you can; either you suprising the opponent or vice-versa. Odd that you're better off walking into an ambush, no?
Anyway, during said suprise round everyone gets perception checks. If any one makes it, they all get to act in the round; BUT (one better) if 2 or more are aware, all who make their check get a FULL ROUND.
This means a full attack for the ranger, a pounce for the cats (and potentially the Druid); even opponents acting in this round only get a partial action.
Even non-percep based guys can grab the feat and latch on (so they at least get the partial action). I think lookout in the unsung power feat of the new game.
Druid + Ranger + Animal companions, all with lookout.
So Druids, Rangers, and Animals all tend to have high perception, and can be built for stealth. Just set up as many suprise rounds as you can; either you suprising the opponent or vice-versa. Odd that you're better off walking into an ambush, no?
Anyway, during said suprise round everyone gets perception checks. If any one makes it, they all get to act in the round; BUT (one better) if 2 or more are aware, all who make their check get a FULL ROUND.
This means a full attack for the ranger, a pounce for the cats (and potentially the Druid); even opponents acting in this round only get a partial action.
Even non-percep based guys can grab the feat and latch on (so they at least get the partial action). I think lookout in the unsung power feat of the new game.
Yes, lookout does seem impressive. Ofcourse the downside is you have to spend 2 feats to get it - once for you and once for your ally. I could see this feat combination being particularly useful to a Lion Shaman and his feline Animal companion.
Archer bard + Sorcerer/Wizard/Druid with a good selection of SoS spells + DW Melee Fighter + Archer Paladin = sick damage synergy.I was also thinking Archer bard, but with a Druid wildshaper with animal companion.
Druid + AC + SNA critters + Mass buffing and ranged support.
For a 3rd maybe a halfling pally archer with "halfling luck" to cover saves and a bit more offense.
Yeah, Archer Bard with a Melee Druid + Animal companion would be a pretty sick combo. Really all you need at that point is another solid damage dealer type. Archer paladin or a switch fighter would both be good choices.
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Just to add my 2cp:
A buffing bard and debuffing/SoS sorcerer work well in just about any group at any level. I play an Arcane bloodline Gnome Sorcerer alongside a Gnome Bard in a Kingmaker game, and the duo dominate the battlefield and in social interaction alike. Our fighter and ranger think they're pretty hot stuff, but it's the little guys in the back who do the real heavy lifting. We keep them around 'cause somebody has to do the stabbing when the bad guys are all incapacitated.
Excellent, someone else picked up on this as a new direction to go. This has been a bug in my brain since the Darksun D&D game day and noticing finally that 4e game play seems more about party optimization and combos then individual character optimization (FYI I don't own 4e, just play sometimes in D&D game day events). It got me thinking about that under discussed aspect of the 3.5 type games.
And I agree a focus on pair combos is the best place to start.
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This a good aligned Duo. Paladin and Cleric of Desna. The whole idea is that you can't stop them. With high resistance and ability to remove anything that you throw at them.
Melee starts, the paladin charges in swinging his two-handed be-header. He has the staying power to be out of touch (touch spell casting zone from the cleric). He is not going to be feared and he will most likely heal damage you throw at him. Meanwhile the cleric is buffing the heck out of himself and the paladin. He doesn't have the best armor but thanks to his travel domain and any other speed enhancing items he is forcing opponents to charge or leave combat with the paladin. Provoking an attack from the paladin isn't the smartest move. And charing the Cleric is fool hardy as all you are doing is moving and getting that one attack that would have hit regardlessly. Now the Cleric is fully buffed as is the paladin. Now the Cleric moves in to help finish off any of the remaining threats.
But my strong opinion is you can make anything happen. Maybe I will randomly roll two classes and think something up.
I'm not much into optimization personally, but I commend the thinking behind this thread as much more productive than talking about individual character optimization.
One of the greatest challenges in the game, IMHO, is making a cohesive party in which the pieces mesh to make the whole far greater than the sum of its parts.
This is far more complex a task than just creating a single optimized character. Lots more variables to consider. I would also posit that four individually optimized characters probably would not make the optimal party. It certainly wouldn't if they all played as individuals rather than as a proper team.
To make it more complex, you have to have a party build that can survive and adapt at different levels, which requires some compromises to be made. If surviving the low levels is a real challenge, you might not be able to take the feats at lower levels that are less desirable by themselves but set you up for awesome things down the road.
Yet another level of complexity is added if you have to optimize the party to meet a wide variety of challenges rather than just combat.
I suspect that, if this approach is followed, some of the uberbuilds people post might not turn out to be so uber.
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I'll disagree with that; most uber-power gamers will have social skills covered (high-Cha caster like summoner, with pet); knowledge skill (Wizards); lifting and climbing (Druid/Summoner's Pet); stealth (less armored people overall/invis can be memmed); anti-magic (the Druid and summoner companions are less reliant on magic items). The "less optimal" party with its fighters has less Cha and skill points.
Optimized for pretty much all cases (4 chars):
Summoner
Bard (Archevist); assuming magic traps are around
Wizard (or Witch or Heaven Oracle; a controller).
Oracle of Nature (summoning focus); or Druid
You get good front line, good skills, most magic types... This party could pretty much handle anything, and they have plenty of social/knowledge skills to work with.
Less optimal:
Fighter
Wizard
Rogue
Cleric
(the default)
Less damage output AND less out of combat skills... And you have no Cha-focused characters, so someone has to be really suboptimal to talk.
Waking up this morning I had an epiphany:
Paladin (charge mounted build) + Druid wildshaper
Have the pally ride the Druid.
Not sure how mechanically optimized it is, but definitely cool!
I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a Wildshaped druid tiger pouncing with a spirited charge lance wielding Paladin on his back!
Waking up this morning I had an epiphany:
Paladin (charge mounted build) + Druid wildshaper
Have the pally ride the Druid.
Not sure how mechanically optimized it is, but definitely cool!
I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a Wildshaped druid tiger pouncing with a spirited charge lance wielding Paladin on his back!
Would you use mount movement rules or PC movement rules for the druid?
I kind of wonder how 2 clerics, one channelling positive energy and one channelling negative energy would work out.
Selective Channelling would be mandatory. :)
The positive energy one could be problematic, you can choose a number of people to not be affected but against large groups it would be possible you can't exclude them all.
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The positive energy one could be problematic, you can choose a number of people to not be affected but against large groups it would be possible you can't exclude them all.I kind of wonder how 2 clerics, one channelling positive energy and one channelling negative energy would work out.
Selective Channelling would be mandatory. :)
Quite true, a lot depends on how many folks are attacking you. Of course if you have a lot of guys attacking the positive energy cleric can just resort to Cure spells.
One of the biggest disadvantages though is that it is a 30' radius... which means that you are vulnerable to ranged attacks.
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Another neat idea would be having a party that all has stealth as a class skill.
Cleric of Trickery, Rogue and a Shadow Sorceror would be an interesting party.
After all one of the biggest limitations I find in games is that you have the guy with the uber stealth who is then handicapped with the rest of the party.
Nobody gets any mileage out of the teamwork feats from the Inquis/Cavaliar, or the Improved Aid Another/Flanking stuff,eh?
==aelryinth