OK...
So, let's take a person with a Strength of 18, giving him a max Heavy Load of 300 pounds. Now let's outfit him with a MW Back Pack from the APG.
Cool, now he has an effective Strength of 19 for encumbrance purposes (350 max Heavy Load), not to bad.
But wait, now we have the Muleback Cords from the APG, giving him an additional +8 bonus to his Strength for encumbrance purposes. Hmmm.. now he is sitting at an effective Str rating of 27?!? Well, that's only a max load of 1,040 pounds...
Oooo... Ooo.. I also forgot something...
Ant Haul!!! A nice little lvl 1 spell TRIPLING a character's max encumbrance, so now we are looking at a whopping 3,120 pounds (that's a ton and a half) of stuff to be carried out.
Can this be possibly correct?
Just what does this do to a character's effective size category, carrying that much stuff about?
Just who needs a Lvl 21 Henchman anymore?
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I think Crystal Frasier put out a free supplement for Kingmaker with a henchman oriented feat...let me look for it...
EDIT: Here it is:
You have learned how to pull your own weight, and a good
deal more when necessary.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Profession (porter) 1 rank
Benefits: You may take 30 minutes to carefully arrange
and pack your load, allowing you to carry much heavier
loads than normal. Figure your carrying capacity as if your
Strength were two points higher whenever you take this
time to pack. Dropping a load packed in this manner is a
full-round action. Retrieving a stowed object requires a
standard action, but this upsets the careful displacement
of weight. Replacing items requires 10 minutes to repack;
adding new items to the load requires a full 30 minutes.
Assuming all this stuff stacks, you're looking at a level 1 dude who can carry ~1.9 metric tons of crap (or he can stagger at 5'/round with ~3.8 metric tons of crap).
Awesome.
Which leads to wonder if these kinds of weights are intentional?
Just who needs a high strength score anymore to lift a portcullis, when all you need is a set of Muleback Cords and an Ant Haul spell?
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Which leads to wonder if these kinds of weights are intentional?
Just who needs a high strength score anymore to lift a portcullis, when all you need is a set of Muleback Cords and an Ant Haul spell?
Ah, but those two things would do nothing to help you lift a portcullis. Something like that usually requires a Str check, and both of those items ONLY affects carrying capacity.
now give this all to an quadruped Eidilon that has taken evolution: legs multiple times
Make sure you grab EVERYTHING not bolted down that's worth anything at all.
Oh no, the fighter is...good at carrying stuff?
Make sure you grab EVERYTHING not bolted down that's worth anything at all.
And they said i was silly for bringing my carpet knife along...
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A party of adventurers enters a small town in Varisia:
Sheriff Hemlock: "Well met. Harad's carrying a lot of stuff, new magic item?"
Geoff: "Aye, well met, Belor."
The two men clasp arms in greeting, then part.
Geoff: "Harad found these strange cords in the creepy forest temple we were searching. Combining that with a bit of my magic and we could cart all of this treasure back, even though a troll ate all of the horses."
Belor: "Well, I hope he puts it all down before the spell runs out."
All: *laughter*
It's like the end of an episode of He-Man or Thundercats.
I don't think I'd allow someone loaded up like that to do much squeezing unless it was all in bags of holding and whatnot. I probably would let you pull a cart when the pony went lame, even though that's not RAW.
Well the first thing to know, is the person with 18 str is something that is nearly impossible in the first place in the real world. Then he is being assisted by magic and technology..
Basically its like the Governator vs the Terminator.
Well the first thing to know, is the person with 18 str is something that is nearly impossible in the first place in the real world. Then he is being assisted by magic and technology..
Basically its like the Governator vs the Terminator.
Mmmh I don't agree with you, I think that, if you look at how much weight a champion weightlifter can... well... lift (obviously :p), you'll find that he has more than 20 in Str... ;)
For example Hossein Rezazadeh record is about 527lbs... That mean a 22-23 Str... :)
Well the first thing to know, is the person with 18 str is something that is nearly impossible in the first place in the real world. Then he is being assisted by magic and technology..
Basically its like the Governator vs the Terminator.
Mmmh I don't agree with you, I think that, if you look at how much weight a champion weightlifter can... well... lift (obviously :p), you'll find that he has more than 20 in Str... ;)
For example Hossein Rezazadeh record is about 527lbs... That mean a 22-23 Str... :)
Actually, that's about a 17 Strength. Remember if you're talking about lift over head weights it's double max load.
Plus i'd even go so far as to say that it's a Strength check for lifting more than you can usually.
Well the first thing to know, is the person with 18 str is something that is nearly impossible in the first place in the real world. Then he is being assisted by magic and technology..
Basically its like the Governator vs the Terminator.
Mmmh I don't agree with you, I think that, if you look at how much weight a champion weightlifter can... well... lift (obviously :p), you'll find that he has more than 20 in Str... ;)
For example Hossein Rezazadeh record is about 527lbs... That mean a 22-23 Str... :)
Yes, he can lift it, now lets see him walk around with it.. cause..
"A character can lift as much as double his maximum
load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around
with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses
any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per
round (as a full-round action"
In other words, Hossein Rezazadeh.. A single man in a several billion people, only really has a str of about 17. Like I said though, 18 is nearly impossible, but not completely impossible.
Erf you're right, forgot about the double for lifting... Well since, after having checked more accurately, his record is 579.7 pounds it makes him a 18 Str man... not bad ;)
Well yes... more than 18 Str for human will be near impossible... Wasn't it 18 or 20 the "human" limit for all stat ?
18 is near impossible still too. Those weight lifter guys are just a very small group of people compared to everyone who can barely lift anything greater than 25 pounds. Oddly though the inverse is not true. It is super easy to have a str of 1.
18 is near impossible still too. Those weight lifter guys are just a very small group of people compared to everyone who can barely lift anything greater than 25 pounds. Oddly though the inverse is not true. It is super easy to have a str of 1.
Yep ;)
Oh and for the topic I think the backpack and the muleback cords take the same slot no ? And a backpack cannot contain 300lb... ;)
The backpack doesn't officially have an item slot. And the muleback cords are arm slots so... eh. *shrug*
Well, a backpack is obviously on your back... Remind of one of my player who wanted to put his backpack, bow, shield and sword on his back... No you can't :p
Well the first thing to know, is the person with 18 str is something that is nearly impossible in the first place in the real world. Then he is being assisted by magic and technology..
Basically its like the Governator vs the Terminator.
Mmmh I don't agree with you, I think that, if you look at how much weight a champion weightlifter can... well... lift (obviously :p), you'll find that he has more than 20 in Str... ;)
For example Hossein Rezazadeh record is about 527lbs... That mean a 22-23 Str... :)Yes, he can lift it, now lets see him walk around with it.. cause..
"A character can lift as much as double his maximum
load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around
with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses
any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per
round (as a full-round action"In other words, Hossein Rezazadeh.. A single man in a several billion people, only really has a str of about 17. Like I said though, 18 is nearly impossible, but not completely impossible.
Considering there are multiple guys at my gym with 16s by the rules, breaking 400 with their deadlift, I don't find those lifting rules to be that far off. The stagger rule is dumb for people with high strength, but for me it is pretty accurate. I would be str 13, with my deadlift of 300 lb (realistic to me). I can get 175lbs ground to over head with a clean & jerk, which would be str 14, but not consistently. I can walk arround with a 200 lb bar for the equivalent of a couple rounds, and can cary a 150 lb bar without much difficulty but obviously off ballance.
Likewise, one of my fellow players who is a trainer at the gym has done the same calculations and found he can accomplish tasks fairly solidly as a str 16 (450lb deadlift, 220 lb clean & jerk). And I have seen him move 300 lb bars arround.
I think they would be better rules to allow you to stagger up to 1.5x your max heavy load and lift 2x, with strength checks needed if you get close to those numbers. But these rules come up so infrequently that it rarely matters.
As for Hossein, his overhead record is 263.5 kg (580lb) for the clean and jerk according to wikipedia, putting him solidly in the 23 str category. The current world record for an unaided deadlift (weight off the ground) is 975lbs, str 21, by Benedikt Magnússon, according to wikipedia.
The world record for unassisted deadlift (which is probably the closest to the rule that one can lift this amount, but only stagger around with it) by Benedikt Mangusson is 442.5 kg, which is 975 lbs. According to the Carrying Capacity table, this is equivalent to Strength 22.
If we look at non-standard events, Paul Anderson has, according to the Guiness Book of World Records, lifted 6250 pounds by means of a 'backlift' (though apparently he didn't lift it from ground-level). That's 3 metric tonnes folks! The equivalent in d20 would be a strength score of 35! :)
Honestly, I see no problem with fighters, barbarians and other warrior-types having extremely high strength. Sure, I like to keep their feats grounded to reality when they are at low levels, but as they advance in level, I have no issue with accomplishing superhuman feats of strength or dexterity (so long as they still at least derive from the possible - so no jumping on clouds and such).
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The world record for unassisted deadlift (which is probably the closest to the rule that one can lift this amount, but only stagger around with it) by Benedikt Mangusson is 442.5 kg, which is 975 lbs. According to the Carrying Capacity table, this is equivalent to Strength 22.
If we look at non-standard events, Paul Anderson has, according to the Guiness Book of World Records, lifted 6250 pounds by means of a 'backlift' (though apparently he didn't lift it from ground-level). That's 3 metric tonnes folks! The equivalent in d20 would be a strength score of 35! :)
Honestly, I see no problem with fighters, barbarians and other warrior-types having extremely high strength. Sure, I like to keep their feats grounded to reality when they are at low levels, but as they advance in level, I have no issue with accomplishing superhuman feats of strength or dexterity (so long as they still at least derive from the possible - so no jumping on clouds and such).
Jumping on clouds is a DC80 Balance check. So sayeth the uselessly unbalanced 3.0 epic handbook. (From memory, don't quote me.)
Actually I rather like seeing skill results of 41-60 as minor magic (lbl 1 or 2 spell, but as Ex), and 61-80 as medium-low magic (3-5). Yes, that means if a character got a 60 at my table they would have non-magically invis'd themselves. But to do that at lvl 20 I'm pretty sure is impossible.
(Math: +20 ranks, +3 class, +6 skill focus, +4 stealthy, +4 size, +4 racial (goblin), +13 (dex), +1 trait = +55)
Alright, nevermind, a lvl 20 stealth-god goblin could do this reliably. At that point, though, they deserve to be invisible. Or possibly chameleon skinned. Either one works.
In that vein I allow other crazy things, like a DC80 craft could mimic fabricate (if that was even possible to hit sub-epic, math says no).
The reason I allow this stuff is because +20 is the generally "Yeah, this is not happening." modifier to a DC, so pumping that even further should (logically) do what is actually impossible, rather than figuratively. I mean, it's high fantasy after all, right?
Alright, back to the OP's topic: I'm not terribly worried about carrying capacities as volume starts to become the issue rather than mass after a while. I'd start asking the player "Exactly how are you going to hold all that crap on you?" Now, if they pulled the cart, then go for it :) I let a druid do this once when the horse was killed.
Jumping on clouds is a DC80 Balance check. So sayeth the uselessly unbalanced 3.0 epic handbook. (From memory, don't quote me.)
Actually I rather like seeing skill results of 41-60 as minor magic (lbl 1 or 2 spell, but as Ex), and 61-80 as medium-low magic (3-5). Yes, that means if a character got a 60 at my table they would have non-magically invis'd themselves. But to do that at lvl 20 I'm pretty sure is impossible.
(Math: +20 ranks, +3 class, +6 skill focus, +4 stealthy, +4 size, +4 racial (goblin), +13 (dex), +1 trait = +55)
Alright, nevermind, a lvl 20 stealth-god goblin could do this reliably. At that point, though, they deserve to be invisible. Or possibly chameleon skinned. Either one works.In that vein I allow other crazy things, like a DC80 craft could mimic fabricate (if that was even possible to hit sub-epic, math says no).
The reason I allow this stuff is because +20 is the generally "Yeah, this is not happening." modifier to a DC, so pumping that even further should (logically) do what is actually impossible, rather than figuratively. I mean, it's high fantasy after all, right?
Alright, back to the OP's topic: I'm not terribly worried about carrying capacities as volume starts to become the issue rather than mass after a while. I'd start asking the player "Exactly how are you going to hold all that crap on you?" Now, if they pulled the cart, then go for it :) I let a druid do this once when the horse was killed.
I know my group has used the DC40 ballance on water in 3.5. GM ruled it would let you run accross but not stand on it. Once you hit DC 40s, you are doing epic things. 10ft high jump, for instance. Its perfectly reasonable to let players perform these epic things IMO, and you start to see it at arround level 10.
And yeah, our alchemist half-orc us our pack mule. Armbands+ant haul + obsurd str. Remember, you can drag 4X your max load, so that cart can be loaded to the gills. Even this is realistic though, as it is not too hard for normal people to move cars.
And some real life weightlifters have been able to drag buses and trucks. I'm not sure but I think there's a record about someone who could drag an airplane with his teeth.
Jumping on clouds is a DC80 Balance check. So sayeth the uselessly unbalanced 3.0 epic handbook. (From memory, don't quote me.)The world record for unassisted deadlift (which is probably the closest to the rule that one can lift this amount, but only stagger around with it) by Benedikt Mangusson is 442.5 kg, which is 975 lbs. According to the Carrying Capacity table, this is equivalent to Strength 22.
If we look at non-standard events, Paul Anderson has, according to the Guiness Book of World Records, lifted 6250 pounds by means of a 'backlift' (though apparently he didn't lift it from ground-level). That's 3 metric tonnes folks! The equivalent in d20 would be a strength score of 35! :)
Honestly, I see no problem with fighters, barbarians and other warrior-types having extremely high strength. Sure, I like to keep their feats grounded to reality when they are at low levels, but as they advance in level, I have no issue with accomplishing superhuman feats of strength or dexterity (so long as they still at least derive from the possible - so no jumping on clouds and such).
Yes, I believe it was something like that, but I pretty much ignore the Epic Level Handbook. The one time I ran an adventure for characters of above 20th level, I just made up a few of my own rules and used a lot of handwaving (the players went into it with the understanding that that's how I would do it), rather than touch the ELH.
Actually I rather like seeing skill results of 41-60 as minor magic (lbl 1 or 2 spell, but as Ex), and 61-80 as medium-low magic (3-5).
Although I can see the logic of why you would do that, it is not my preference. Personally, I like to have a strict separation between magic and non-magic, though it is admitedly not always clear-cut. I subscribe to the notion that it is superhuman, but non-magical when it is an extension (even if unrealistic) of an ability that would be possible in RL. So for example, jumping over a 100ft or even a 300 ft chasm is an extension of jumping, so I would be OK with characters managing to do it without the aid of magic at very high levels (let's call them 'epic levels'...), although it is impossible in RL. Jumping on coulds, is not merely an impossible extension of jumping, in my book, but an entirely new impossible ability that isn't an extension of a RL ability and thus would be impossible to accomplish in my games without magical aid. Returning to pure strength as an example, - a barbarian pushing down a massive castle wall - impossible in RL, but an extension of normal ability, thus technically possible in my game at high levels with sufficient strength. I think you get the picture of what I mean.
Yes, I know, it is not always easy to make the judgmenet call, as there are certainly various borderline and intermediate cases, but I do my best. Perhaps I would call my approach 'strained' or 'extended' realism' or 'simulationism' or something like that. ;)
Your approach is certainly entirely legitimate (and perhaps even closer to what rules suggest) - it is just a question of styles.
Yes, that means if a character got a 60 at my table they would have non-magically invis'd themselves. But to do that at lvl 20 I'm pretty sure is impossible.
(Math: +20 ranks, +3 class, +6 skill focus, +4 stealthy, +4 size, +4 racial (goblin), +13 (dex), +1 trait = +55)
Alright, nevermind, a lvl 20 stealth-god goblin could do this reliably. At that point, though, they deserve to be invisible. Or possibly chameleon skinned. Either one works.
Well, let's face it, a character who got a 60 stealth check would be 'effectively invisible' - I cannot argue with that - under my rules that would be a superhuman extension of hiding and be considered non-magical.
Next you'll want fighters doing impossible things like ripping off a monster's arm then spending hours underwater searching for it's lair.
You know.
Like warriors in fantasy and mythology do all the time.
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Well, let's face it, a character who got a 60 stealth check would be 'effectively invisible' - I cannot argue with that - under my rules that would be a superhuman extension of hiding and be considered non-magical.
I always consider the skill check stuff non-magical, I was just listed reference "approximate spell levels" for the purpose of how powerful the effect could be, not implying that they were actually spells.
And yes he is "effectively" invisible, but I prefer to explain the extreme events as being aided subconsciously by the same physics-defying pseudo-magic as many Ex abilities are (such as Uncanny Dodge or Improved Evasion, or even a Ranger's HiPS). This doesn't change how they work mechanically and is just a way to make skill checks of this magnitude "make sense."I guess you could call me a 'compromising simulationist' or a 'high fantasy simulationist'.
I figure if I ever wrote epic rules I would have "new uses" for skills appear at 21st, 26th, 31st and 36th ranks (ranks, not modifier). Something like "Stealth: Rank 21, you can do a stealth check at -20 against foes with scent or tremorsense. Rank 26, the penalties against scent or tremorsense reduce to -10, and you make make a stealth check against a foe with blindsense at -20" and so on. By Rank 36 you should be able to do pretty much anything you could think of with that skill. With a Craft skill I'd imagine the rank 21 ability would be making masterwork items in a single day, rank 26 might granting special-material-like qualities to normal material, etc.
With Spellcraft I'd treat rank 21 as permanent detect magic (no concentration, but slow to read), rank 26 as permanent arcane sight, 31 as greater and 36 would be a special sight that lets you see the flow of all magic, active and inactive in any nearby area as a new sense entirely.
The list goes on, but you get the idea.
Back to OP: Again, it's ridiculous, but it ain't gonna hurt anything :) Note that I could show you a level 20 build of character that could carry several semi trucks around when at their peak strength (which is admittedly only a couple minutes per day, but still). That's without any of these items or abilities. With them they'd be able to lift small mansions and move them. It's 20th level, though, and it's supposed to be crazy.
Well, let's face it, a character who got a 60 stealth check would be 'effectively invisible' - I cannot argue with that - under my rules that would be a superhuman extension of hiding and be considered non-magical.
I always consider the skill check stuff non-magical, I was just listed reference "approximate spell levels" for the purpose of how powerful the effect could be, not implying that they were actually spells.
And yes he is "effectively" invisible, but I prefer to explain the extreme events as being aided subconsciously by the same physics-defying pseudo-magic as many Ex abilities are (such as Uncanny Dodge or Improved Evasion, or even a Ranger's HiPS). This doesn't change how they work mechanically and is just a way to make skill checks of this magnitude "make sense."
I guess you could call me a 'compromising simulationist' or a 'high fantasy simulationist'.
OK, I see what you mean. It now seems our styles are actually more similar than it initially appeared. Ex abilities are a decent guideline actually, as they do allow characters to do impossible stuff, but not 'too impossible' if you know what I mean. For example, there is no Ex flight without wings and such - I would say the Ex abilities are indeed pretty much impossible extensions of the possible.
Heh, this reminds me that I remember noticing our DMing-style similarities in another thread already (most people argued the opposine while I frequently found myself thinking: yes that's how I do it too, or that's similar to how I do it), though I don't recall the exact topic, though your name stuck in my memory.
I figure if I ever wrote epic rules I would have "new uses" for skills appear at 21st, 26th, 31st and 36th ranks (ranks, not modifier). Something like "Stealth: Rank 21, you can do a stealth check at -20 against foes with scent or tremorsense. Rank 26, the penalties against scent or tremorsense reduce to -10, and you make make a stealth check against a foe with blindsense at -20" and so on. By Rank 36 you should be able to do pretty much anything you could think of with that skill. With a Craft skill I'd imagine the rank 21 ability would be making masterwork items in a single day, rank 26 might granting special-material-like qualities to normal material, etc.
With Spellcraft I'd treat rank 21 as permanent detect magic (no concentration, but slow to read), rank 26 as permanent arcane sight, 31 as greater and 36 would be a special sight that lets you see the flow of all magic, active and inactive in any nearby area as a new sense entirely.
The list goes on, but you get the idea.
It's definitely an interesting approach. I would also suggest the idea of special abilities for high ability scores - something akin to what existed in 2E, but more extensive and exciting.
I am of two minds of how I would write epic levels. My dilemna would be whether to continue with the current progressions (albeit perhaps with diminishing returns) or institute a break in the way of doing things and make characters advance as something new altogether (e.g. 20th level is the maximum 'mortal' level and if they transcend it they get to advance as 'immortals' of some sort). My provisional rules were the former, but cognizant that they both have major pros and cons, I keep switching back and forth in my mind of what I would do if I were to design the system.
Back to OP: Again, it's ridiculous, but it ain't gonna hurt anything :)
I have to agree with you here - I would allow it without an issue. It even fits with my superhuman, but non-magical theme. :)
Also would enlarge person make this even more like hauling things. For some reason I imagined the lone guy pushing a siege tower. Couldn't the guy carry the cart he can pick up so much anyway.
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Well, a backpack is obviously on your back... Remind of one of my player who wanted to put his backpack, bow, shield and sword on his back... No you can't :p
Really? you've never carried more than 1 backpack before?
When I GEM, i ahve my messanger bag, duffelt bag, and Map tube all stung over my shoulder/back..
layers..
Sword, Backpack, Bow, Shield.
Not that you would be able to draw them all with Ease, but you coudl def. get to the sword, maybe the shield a(if it was quick Draw, or light shield). But you could def. Carry it all.
Go to one of the hundreds of Highland games this next summer and watch the Kaiber toss and youll see lots of guys with 16 plus strength. And the strongman competitions, wow... 18 plus...
Interesting discussions, deffinitely food for thought here.
many thanks.
Well, a backpack is obviously on your back... Remind of one of my player who wanted to put his backpack, bow, shield and sword on his back... No you can't :pReally? you've never carried more than 1 backpack before?
When I GEM, i ahve my messanger bag, duffelt bag, and Map tube all stung over my shoulder/back..
layers..
Sword, Backpack, Bow, Shield.
Not that you would be able to draw them all with Ease, but you coudl def. get to the sword, maybe the shield a(if it was quick Draw, or light shield). But you could def. Carry it all.
But could you fight effectively with it? ^^
I mean it's not like it's part of your body and I don't think backpacks at the time were as good as for ex. Haglöfs backpacks.
Well, considering I could be toting around my Saturn on my back, putting me into the Heavy load category, those would be the applicable penalties.
Per RAW.
And some real life weightlifters have been able to drag buses and trucks. I'm not sure but I think there's a record about someone who could drag an airplane with his teeth.
Remember though he isn't quite pulling the whole load though. The Wheels on the bus go round and round..
Cause I mean, how often have you seen people push around a car that ran out of gas?
Personally, I'd let my players carry around stuff, especially when they have inhuman scores and lots of magical items. Problem is... floor boards are not as epic as they are.
(Ever watch movies were 20 ton mechs can jump out of an airplane and land ontop of a building and NOT crush the building? yeah.. )
I would let them put the cords on the magical backpack.
Remember weapon and armor augment crystals?
I think each item or set should have one augment slot.
Thus I think the broach of shielding should be a cape augment item.
However...
If someone tries to push down a wall, they create a hole.
A few bricks or blocks might fall on them(Reflex save) but it wouldn't go all the way to the top of a three story wall. You need to preserve believeability, but not realism.
As for multiple mundane items on your back, sure, with a molly frame.
You are probably unbalenced, so anything that tries to knock you over gets an effective bonus of some kind. Plus six to put you on your butt? Sure, Wolfy will go for that.