Hi gang,
I ran into something funny during my game today... One of my players was grappling an enemy and decided to choke him. We were on the fence about what rules to use. Either the suffocating rules, which state that a character can go like 1 or 2 rounds PER CONSTITUTION score (i.e.: Forever), or that one simply can't choke another by grappling and can just inflict damage with grapple checks until foe dies or falls unconcious.
Anyone have a ruling on this that makes some sort of sense? lol
Ultradan
I've experimented with trying to model strangle holds (holds that cut bloodflow to the brain) and the general consensus was that it couldn't work realistically given how easy it was to grapple.
IRL these holds are deadly, but difficult to attain and sustain. In game, I was making CR -2 Monks with unbeatable grapple CMBs and CMDs that could render a player unconscious in 2 rounds.
If you want to shorten suffocation for strange holds to make it a worthwhile tactic, the best I can recommend is experiment and see how many rounds work for your group. Bearing in mind that similar tactics can be employed against PCs, typically with more success because humanoids have a harder time maxing CMD. Our group eventually became disenchanted with the notion and gave up before we found something we liked.
I'd say the same, go with damage. If the intent is to knock them out for something like questioning etc allow the grapple damage to be sudual damage instead.
I've experimented with trying to model strangle holds (holds that cut bloodflow to the brain) and the general consensus was that it couldn't work realistically given how easy it was to grapple.
IRL these holds are deadly, but difficult to attain and sustain. In game, I was making CR -2 Monks with unbeatable grapple CMBs and CMDs that could render a player unconscious in 2 rounds.If you want to shorten suffocation for strange holds to make it a worthwhile tactic, the best I can recommend is experiment and see how many rounds work for your group. Bearing in mind that similar tactics can be employed against PCs, typically with more success because humanoids have a harder time maxing CMD. Our group eventually became disenchanted with the notion and gave up before we found something we liked.
I have been trained in the application of "blood chokes," and my instructors told me that the victim typically loses consciousness in about 30 seconds. Given that information it would not be hard to write a feat that replicates this effect.
Maybe a feat that forces a FORT DC10+Damage Dealt each round. Prereq for the feat obviously Improved Grapple. Move Action to grapple (do the damage) and standard action to force the save. Just an idea to start discussion, not in any way shape or form a final draft.
The inherent problem is that the combat system is not "accurate" ie, detailed. Grappling damage? Is that noogies, or eye gouging? And if it is eye gouging, what are my penalties for being blind? When I grapple, can I body slam my opponent? And, when I do is my opponent stunned by having the wind knocked out of him? It is a dangerous path to go after "details" other than dramatic descriptions...
GNOME
I have been trained in the application of "blood chokes," and my instructors told me that the victim typically loses consciousness in about 30 seconds. Given that information it would not be hard to write a feat that replicates this effect.I've experimented with trying to model strangle holds (holds that cut bloodflow to the brain) and the general consensus was that it couldn't work realistically given how easy it was to grapple.
IRL these holds are deadly, but difficult to attain and sustain. In game, I was making CR -2 Monks with unbeatable grapple CMBs and CMDs that could render a player unconscious in 2 rounds.If you want to shorten suffocation for strange holds to make it a worthwhile tactic, the best I can recommend is experiment and see how many rounds work for your group. Bearing in mind that similar tactics can be employed against PCs, typically with more success because humanoids have a harder time maxing CMD. Our group eventually became disenchanted with the notion and gave up before we found something we liked.
5 rounds of grapple damage equals 30 seconds. And seeing as most of the creatures and or people you will be facing are extraordinary... This seems to reflect normal grapple damage imo.
Sounds to me like it should be non-lethal grapple damage.
I don't believe I've ever actually checked to see if there are written rules for this type of maneuver but in the two Ravenloft games (meaning everything is deadlier and will kill the $%#* out of you) of HidaJiremi's that I have been in, choking someone to death was I believe something you could do once an opponent was pinned.
So you beat their grapple modifier, pin them, the next round they go to 0 HP (regardless of what you were at before) and the round after that to your negative con score. Massive Damage for these games is reduced to 25 as well instead of the standard 50.
Being the guy with the healing magic was a full-time occupation. But man this made things like Chokers scary as hell.
I ran into something funny during my game today... One of my players was grappling an enemy and decided to choke him. We were on the fence about what rules to use. Either the suffocating rules, which state that a character can go like 1 or 2 rounds PER CONSTITUTION score (i.e.: Forever), or that one simply can't choke another by grappling and can just inflict damage with grapple checks until foe dies or falls unconcious.
Anyone have a ruling on this that makes some sort of sense? lol
There's a ruling on this that makes no sense at all, if that helps. :-)
In the Adventurer's Armory, there's a garotte weapon that uses the suffocation rules which, as you note, are incredibly slow. Sean's comment on the issue was that he didn't want to encourage PCs to choke all their opponents to death.
That makes sense to a degree. But it seems a bit extreme considering that it only takes three rounds to grapple, pin, and tie up an enemy, making them completely helpless.
If I were making a house rule, it'd be something like Bofdm/HidaJiremi's but maybe less lethal (e.g., maybe something like "if you pin an opponent for three rounds in a row, they have to start making progressively harder saves vs. unconsciousness").