Is there any reason why you can't use the familiar archetypes from Familiar Folio on an Improved Familiar? I wonder how the Mauler's Increased Strength and Battle Form would interact with the Change Shape ability of imps and quasits. Since Change Shape doesn't change Str I'm guessing that the boost from the Increased Strength ability would stay intact. I'm not sure if you could use the extra +2 from Battle Form though or if it would let you move smaller forms up to Medium size. I'm kind of guessing not though it might be fun to fly around on a man-sized "Bat out of Hell" with 20+ Str.
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Emissary, Sage, and School Familiar archetypes don't trade Speak With Animals, so they should work. Not the most exciting archetypes, though.
EDIT: Though the greater Necromancy School power would be pretty scary on an imp or quasit - sneak up invisibly and then deliver a negative level attack.
I'm confused about the Sage archetype... it keeps referring to the familiar's "level". How does a familiar get levels?
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It's the effective wizard level that grants the familiar.
Ok, I hadn't considered the implications of Speak With Animals. I guess you can't give up what you don't have. Alas...
With that settled, I agree that the Emissary doesn't seem very exciting although it is the archetype I'll likely be taking in an actual game. Improved Familiar probably won't be an issue there since the PC is rather tight on feats and nobody seems sure whether the effective Wizard level you get for having a familiar counts as an arcane caster level for the purposes of Improved Familiar.
In other words, can a Fighter who gains a familiar have an Improved Familiar? I've never been able to find an answer. Has anybody else seen anything official on that?
I'm really disappointed by this ruling since I've been trying to figure out a way to use the dweomercat with a mage hunter and mauler would be perfect if it worked.
It's not really that odd - normal familiars gain NO skill ranks of their own. Even gaining 2 is a significant boost.
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"This ability replaces alertness and the familiar's ability to share its master's skill ranks."
While they gain a bonus on knowledge checks equal to half their level, it seems like Sage Familiars will end up with significantly less skill points being spent (granted theirs are more flexibly spent) than a regular familiar.
I'm not saying it's necessarily unbalanced, I haven't done the math, I was just curious.
The advantages our:
1) Freedom to Spend the 2 every level.
2) More intelligence (means better knowledge checks)
3) Scaling (1/2 level) bonus to knowledge checks.
So they could very well be better at a couple of knowledge checks than a regular familiar. It just seems like only getting 2 skills a level is very limiting. But perhaps that was the intention.
Consider the normal case: no independent ranks, worse Int scaling, no Knowledge bonus, not having Knowledge as class skill.
The main advantage of the archetype, as I see it, is that your PC can put NO ranks in any knowledge skills, and still have a very effective way to make Knowledge checks. The familiar can drop on rank into each Knowledge skill, and then max out one of them. You get to spend your own skill ranks how you please, and the familiar does all the thinky-work.
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Consider the normal case: no independent ranks, worse Int scaling, no Knowledge bonus, not having Knowledge as class skill.
The main advantage of the archetype, as I see it, is that your PC can put NO ranks in any knowledge skills, and still have a very effective way to make Knowledge checks. The familiar can drop on rank into each Knowledge skill, and then max out one of them. You get to spend your own skill ranks how you please, and the familiar does all the thinky-work.
That makes sense, for non-intelligence based classes, the Sage offers a lot more. I guess I was too stuck thinking about it from a Wizard's perspective and not from something like a Fighter who picks one up.
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I think I figured out how to get an improved familiar with one of the archetypes but it requires a one level dip. A level of witch with the animal patron and a patron familiar gets speak with animals of it's kind at level one even though you lose that with improved familiar, then you could trade it back away for mauler or one of the others.
I like that they added some more options for familiars, and for getting familiars. I've played a couple of fighters with a familiar before and had a lot of fun with it. After looking through this stuff I really want to make a pirate... make a fighter with the eldritch guardian archetype with a parrot sage familiar! It's not the most optimized way to use that archetype but I just love the idea of a tough but dim witted pirate who ask his parrot when he needs to know something and the parrot squacks out actual answers (in common).
edit: that was super off-topic, sorry
I don't mind you getting off topic. I have a mini of a pretty cool mini of a one-legged sailor with a crutch and a parrot. I've long wanted to make a PC to go with it but have never figured out quite the right build to inspire me. A gaming buddy who moved away a while back did briefly use the mini for an NPC named Salty Pete with a parrot named Re-Pete. At the risk of getting even further off topic, here's a potential theme song for a silly pirate PC (perhaps Varisian). Here's another one if he's a boggard.
I've used Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) to pick up a familiar a time or two and think the new archetypes could make that approach even more interesting. It looks like Familiar Bond is more for the "Basic" familiar, but it makes those more accessible for folks who are likely to take Iron Will anyhow. I still wish I knew whether your effective wizard level from all these options worked to fulfill the caster level requirement of Improved Familiar. If so that would add a little more potential to Familiar Bond.
You can always pick up a caster level through traits too... 'alluring' (religion, Bolka) and 'wendifa apprentice' (faith) are both traits that grant a caster level equal to your level... or you could pick a race with a racial arcane SLA.
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It's not really that odd - normal familiars gain NO skill ranks of their own. Even gaining 2 is a significant boost.
I'm not aware of any other entity that gains independent skill ranks but doesn't apply their Int mod. That's why it's odd.
The main advantage of the archetype, as I see it, is that your PC can put NO ranks in any knowledge skills, and still have a very effective way to make Knowledge checks. The familiar can drop on rank into each Knowledge skill, and then max out one of them. You get to spend your own skill ranks how you please, and the familiar does all the thinky-work.That makes sense, for non-intelligence based classes, the Sage offers a lot more. I guess I was too stuck thinking about it from a Wizard's perspective and not from something like a Fighter who picks one up.
Yes, it can be pretty handy for a non-Int-based character with a familiar to spread out the skill ranks. But with 2 skill points a level and no Int bonus until level 7, a sage familiar won't get a good base of knowledge until levels 5-10. At this point, a bard or alchemist/investigator could easily have a similar array of knowledge skills. Or - and this is the option my group usually goes for - each character in the party puts ranks in 1-3 knowledge skills and between us we cover everything. If you and your party are starved for skill ranks and need the familiar to cover some blind spots it's a good option, but I don't think it's overly powerful even if you do add Int to skill ranks (which, remember, isn't an advantage until level 7). In my experience skills depreciate at high levels since the DCs don't all scale well and magical solutions become more common.
It's not like shared skill ranks are useless. A familiar sharing your skill ranks can aid another to improve your roll, or provide a second die roll in case you botch a check. You're also losing Alertness and halving your familiar's natural armour, which makes it riskier to have about in combat (which to relate to the OP is particularly common for improved familiars).
The Sage familiar seems kind of lackluster compared to some of the other options, but it could probably come in handy for a party which is bad at Knowledge checks. There are 10 Knowledge skills, so the 1/2 level bonus to checks on all of them is kind of like gaining an extra 5 skill ranks per level. Whether or not you adjust the familiar's skill ranks with Int is kind of a mixed bag since doing so at low levels (up to 4) would be to your disadvantage.
I think I figured out how to get an improved familiar with one of the archetypes but it requires a one level dip. A level of witch with the animal patron and a patron familiar gets speak with animals of it's kind at level one even though you lose that with improved familiar, then you could trade it back away for mauler or one of the others.Can you point me to where in the rules this is stated? I've looked over the witch, and I can't find anything that changes anything about the familiar if you have the animal patron.
It's the patron familiar option from the folio. You basically delay your patron spells by one level to get a small bonus based on your patron. Animal patron gets 1st level talk to animals of same type. So if you are only taking a 1 level dip, then it's basically free.
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It's not really that odd - normal familiars gain NO skill ranks of their own. Even gaining 2 is a significant boost.I'm not aware of any other entity that gains independent skill ranks but doesn't apply their Int mod. That's why it's odd.
Even done a FIGHTER with INT 7? 2 skill ranks per level, modified by -2 for INT. If not for the kind pathfinder rules, you'd have no skills. Instead, you get 1 skill point per level without INT applied.
Not just fighters, any PC that get's zero or less skill ranks per level due to their INT, defaults to 1 per level.
That would be the other entity that gains independent skill rankts but doesn't apply their INT mod, stupid PCs...
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Precisely. There's a floor to your skill points but a fighter with 7 Int still has fewer skill points than a fighter with 10 Int or 13 Int.
as you still get the skill points for having high intelligence
That is in fact the question being debated.
Random question, the Sage Familiar only ever gains 2 skills per level right? Not 2 + Int Mod?
That's RAW, though it's a bit odd and might be an oversight.
It's not really that odd - normal familiars gain NO skill ranks of their own. Even gaining 2 is a significant boost.
Etc
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Sage familiars do lead to hilarious situations, like a Sorcerer combining Sage and Figment archetypes to make a FIGMENT OF THEIR IMAGINATION smarter than their 10 Int self.
The familiar who is smarter than the master isn't uncommon even without Sages. My Paladin 4 / Bard 13 in Kingmaker had a pet monkey (from his grinder organ days) who became his familiar and was both smarter and wiser than the PC for much of their career. When the PC became King the the monkey would secretly advise him on how to best run the kingdom. The DM sometimes hinted that there could be problems if the citizens of Hutzovina ever realized that policy was being decided by a monkey (who was probably susceptible to bribery with fruit)
The familiar who is smarter than the master isn't uncommon even without Sages. My Paladin 4 / Bard 13 in Kingmaker had a pet monkey (from his grinder organ days) who became his familiar and was both smarter and wiser than the PC for much of their career. When the PC became King the the monkey would secretly advise him on how to best run the kingdom. The DM sometimes hinted that there could be problems if the citizens of Hutzovina ever realized that policy was being decided by a monkey (who was probably susceptible to bribery with fruit)
"Was the monarch monkeying around when he passed that law!?"
"It's better that they never learn the truth"
The familiar doesn't get an ability to 'advise its master', it simply gets a bunch of skills.. basically, it will KNOW what the master is doing is stupid, feel shame, and the master will detect that feeling of shame through the emphatic link.. :-)
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Yes but the fluff on the Sage Familiar actively describes the sage lecturing its master:
A sage stores information on every topic and is happy to lecture its master on the finer points.
How can you lecture if you cannot talk in the first place?
Hmm
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Could you give one skill rank in linguistics to give the familiar an early language? Or is there something that prevents the familiar from doing that? (I'm trying to build a sage skunk for my shaman, and would like it to be able to talk from 1).Yes but the fluff on the Sage Familiar actively describes the sage lecturing its master:
A sage stores information on every topic and is happy to lecture its master on the finer points.How can you lecture if you cannot talk in the first place?
Hmm
I'd say not, most familiars don't gain the ability to naturally speak (I'm talking the generic familiars, the Improved Familiars offer many exceptions). Something like a Parrot might make an exception. You could possibly give it a point of linguistics and have it write things out for you though (obviously is limited based on time to write out information).
Yes but the fluff on the Sage Familiar actively describes the sage lecturing its master:
A sage stores information on every topic and is happy to lecture its master on the finer points.How can you lecture if you cannot talk in the first place?
Hmm
Ever hear of a Mocking Bird?
Many chatty critters can make a lot of noise, and sound like they are scolding you.
/cevah
Parrots and ravens can speak. I think most other unimproved familiars would have to wait until they gain the speak with master ability. The Sage archetype still seems pretty lackluster to me, so giving it the ability to speak a language might be a pretty good house rule. Officially I think they'd be stuck with the same rules as most other familiars though.
Speaking is an important issue for familiars both in terms of communicating with other party members and for the purpose of activating magic items. As an aside, I'd assume that the reason most familiars can't speak is because they lack the physical capability to do so. I wonder if Alter Self (whether as a shared spell or from a magic item) could be used to allow such familiars to speak while in humanoid form.
@downlobot - One of my PCs has a skunk familiar which he got for free as part of his campaign's story line. In fact, the "bonus" nature of the familiar is one reason why I picked a familiar which can't grasp objects or speak. I've also avoided the Mauler archetype, but I'm making Mr. Stinkums an Emissary of Hell (he brings the "brimstone" so to speak)
@cevah - In a parking lot I once ran into a mockingbird who had decided to start building a nest in the luggage rack on top of an SUV I'd happened to park near. The bird apparently took my presence as a threat and began making attack runs towards the back of my head, only breaking off when I'd turn to confront her. I've seen similar attacks in the past where a bird repeatedly pecked a hapless cat on top of the head, so I adopted kind of a boxing stance and backed across the parking lot defending myself from a tiny (or in game terms probably Diminutive) attacker. People inside the building probably couldn't see the little bird and just thought I was a very strange man fighting invisible enemies in the parking lot.
Luckily the bald eagles in my neighbor's back yard have never decided to fight me. I've heard that they do 1d4 damage, and looking at their size I'd certainly believe it.