Projectiles with Enlarge Person / Reduce Person

[Eric Morris]

There is an inconsistency in how projectiles are handled between the Enlarge Person spell and the Reduce Person spell. First, these spells cancel each other out because they are in fact opposites of each other. Second, Enlarge Person states that projectiles immediately return to normal size (ie, smaller) upon being fired, and so only do their normal damage upon impact. Third, Reduce Person states that projectiles REMAIN REDUCED in size after being fired until after they impact, thus only doing the reduce damage from being smaller.

Why? If the projectile reverts to normal size from one spell, shouldn't the same occur for the other as well? Conversely, if the projectile remains changed during flight to its target for one spell, shouldn't it remain so for the other?

Currently as written, projectiles are *always* at their weakest for either spell. Enlarge Person specifically allows for increased weapon damage for all but thrown weapons and projectiles. Why? If it allows for increased weapon damage for some weapons it should do so for ALL weapons, just as Reduced Person does.

Any particular rulings or comments in this?

[Eric Morris]

Anyone?

[Mauril]

As I remember, this was brought up some time ago. AFAIK, one of the Devs commented on it and might have suggested that it would be considered for an errata. Until then, RAW says what it says. You are welcome to houserule in your home games, but not for PFS games.

[w0nkothesane]

I had noticed this a few days ago while considering the pros and cons of taking Reduce Person on a Gnome Sorcerer to benefit a couple of group members who use a bow and crossbow.

The inconsistency really rubbed me the wrong way. Ours is a house game so I'm going to appeal to our GM and see if we can get them to behave consistently (going either way really) but that doesn't help Society players.

[OgeXam]

They are different spells, they are not meant to be 100% opposite of each other.

Having ranged weapons return to normal sized on an enlarged person is a good thing. Ranged fighters are already stronger then melee fighters for damage output to allow an archer to then shoot bigger arrows makes them even more so. By keeping it for melee fighters it helps those guys out, while not uping the power level of the range fighter.

Plus Enlarge is thought of as a buff spell, while reduce is a debuff (though can be used as a buff spell in the right conditions).

Remember giants can have enlarge person on them now (type humaniod subtype giant). Think of a Storm Giant drinking an enlarge person potion then raining down enlarged arrows. His weapon damage is insane you want to stay away, if his bow damage was increased as well you would not want to be anywhere near him.

I think having the enlarged ranged weapons go to normal balances the two spells.

[IkeDoe]

Gravity Bow (APG) is the spell that allows the use of oversized arrows. Enlarge Person is for melee weapons, mostly.
Enlarge Person != Reduce Person

[Pathos]

The 4th printing of the Core Rule book has corrected this, to where an item leaving your person returns to normal size, for both Enlarge and Reduce Person.

[IkeDoe]

Pathos wrote:

The 4th printing of the Core Rule book has corrected this, to where an item leaving your person returns to normal size, for both Enlarge and Reduce Person.

Uhmm, it doesn't appear in the errata document.

That's how the spell (Reduce Person) reads in my book (2nd printing iirc)

"Any reduced item that leaves
the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown
weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown
weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based
on the size of the weapon that fired them)."

[Pathos]

Its even been fixed on PFSRD... HERE

[Pathos]

IkeDoe wrote:

Pathos wrote:

The 4th printing of the Core Rule book has corrected this, to where an item leaving your person returns to normal size, for both Enlarge and Reduce Person.

Uhmm, it doesn't appear in the errata document.

That's how the spell (Reduce Person) reads in my book (2nd printing iirc)

"Any reduced item that leaves
the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown
weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based
on the size of the weapon that fired them)."

[w0nkothesane]

Pathos wrote:

Its even been fixed on PFSRD... HERE

Fantastic! +2 to hit and +2 AC for ranged attackers (excluding those who use might composite longbows anyway) is quite a buff if you ask me.

OgeXam wrote:

Plus Enlarge is thought of as a buff spell, while reduce is a debuff (though can be used as a buff spell in the right conditions).

That's a very narrow view of both spells. Enlarge Person's uses as a buff are pretty obvious, but in areas where a size increase would cause squeezing, and against enemies that don't benefit from having higher strength, it can be a solid debuff. In a group with a lot of melee combatants (through Leadership, animal companions, summons, etc) can more easily flank and surround an enemy, and the penalty to AC adds to that.

Likewise, Reduce Person can be a solid buff. Ray focused casters, crossbow wielders, and finesse combatants get +2 to hit and +2 AC. Medium sized characters don't have to squeeze in fights in small tunnels. Both spells are pretty versatile in that they can be a buff or a debuff depending on the foe.

[IkeDoe]

Pathos wrote:

IkeDoe wrote:

Pathos wrote:

The 4th printing of the Core Rule book has corrected this, to where an item leaving your person returns to normal size, for both Enlarge and Reduce Person.

Uhmm, it doesn't appear in the errata document.

That's how the spell (Reduce Person) reads in my book (2nd printing iirc)

"Any reduced item that leaves
the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown
weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based
on the size of the weapon that fired them)."

Note that projectiles still deal damage based on the size of the weapon (which was reduced and deals less damage as stated in the spell description).

I can't see where the description hasn been "fixed", is the same since the 1st print.

[Pathos]

IkeDoe wrote:

Pathos wrote:

IkeDoe wrote:

Pathos wrote:

The 4th printing of the Core Rule book has corrected this, to where an item leaving your person returns to normal size, for both Enlarge and Reduce Person.

Uhmm, it doesn't appear in the errata document.

That's how the spell (Reduce Person) reads in my book (2nd printing iirc)

"Any reduced item that leaves
the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown
weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based
on the size of the weapon that fired them)."

Note that projectiles still deal damage based on the size of the weapon (which was reduced and deals less damage as stated in the spell description).

Ahh... I get ya. Reading comprehension for the lose.

[bacin08]

IkeDoe wrote:

Pathos wrote:

IkeDoe wrote:

Pathos wrote:

The 4th printing of the Core Rule book has corrected this, to where an item leaving your person returns to normal size, for both Enlarge and Reduce Person.

Uhmm, it doesn't appear in the errata document.

That's how the spell (Reduce Person) reads in my book (2nd printing iirc)

"Any reduced item that leaves
the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown
weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based
on the size of the weapon that fired them)."

Note that projectiles still deal damage based on the size of the weapon (which was reduced and deals less damage as stated in the spell description).

I can't see where the description hasn been "fixed", is the same since the 1st print.

We houseruled that projectile weapons still deal normal sized damage, because this spell quite literally doesn't make sense in this aspect. The gun isn't doing the damage, it's the projectile, and the damage of the weapon is the representation of the projectile. Devs just weren't using their brains this day or something.

[Kayerloth]

HAH!, I rarely 'FAQ' anything (particularly something that doesn't already have a bazillion hits) and I just realized I hit the FAQ button on this lovely bit of 8 year old necromancy.

[Volkard Abendroth]

OgeXam wrote:

Plus Enlarge is thought of as a buff spell, while reduce is a debuff (though can be used as a buff spell in the right conditions).

Most DEX builds are going to consider Enlarge Person a debuff and Reduce Person a buff.

[DabDaddy51]

bacin08 wrote:

IkeDoe wrote:

Pathos wrote:

IkeDoe wrote:

Pathos wrote:

The 4th printing of the Core Rule book has corrected this, to where an item leaving your person returns to normal size, for both Enlarge and Reduce Person.

Uhmm, it doesn't appear in the errata document.

That's how the spell (Reduce Person) reads in my book (2nd printing iirc)

"Any reduced item that leaves
the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown
weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based
on the size of the weapon that fired them)."

Note that projectiles still deal damage based on the size of the weapon (which was reduced and deals less damage as stated in the spell description).

I can't see where the description hasn been "fixed", is the same since the 1st print.

We houseruled that projectile weapons still deal normal sized damage, because this spell quite literally doesn't make sense in this aspect. The gun isn't doing the damage, it's the projectile, and the damage of the weapon is the representation of the projectile. Devs just weren't using their brains this day or something.

I assume as the weight is lost the speed of the projectile increases to what it would have been if it had been the smaller size when fired from the weapon as for a weapon like a bow the power doesn't come inherently with the arrow but rather from the bow imparting it and even with magic the simplest thing would be to assume that momentum is maintained, even for guns the weight/size of the bullet after being fired doesn't matter if momentum is conserved as the amount of gunpowder used to fire it would be that of a large sized bullet and the bullet would only shrink after being fired.

[vhok]

DabDaddy51 wrote:

bacin08 wrote:

IkeDoe wrote:

Pathos wrote:

IkeDoe wrote:

Pathos wrote:

The 4th printing of the Core Rule book has corrected this, to where an item leaving your person returns to normal size, for both Enlarge and Reduce Person.

Uhmm, it doesn't appear in the errata document.

That's how the spell (Reduce Person) reads in my book (2nd printing iirc)

"Any reduced item that leaves
the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown
weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based
on the size of the weapon that fired them)."

Note that projectiles still deal damage based on the size of the weapon (which was reduced and deals less damage as stated in the spell description).

I can't see where the description hasn been "fixed", is the same since the 1st print.

We houseruled that projectile weapons still deal normal sized damage, because this spell quite literally doesn't make sense in this aspect. The gun isn't doing the damage, it's the projectile, and the damage of the weapon is the representation of the projectile. Devs just weren't using their brains this day or something.

I assume as the weight is lost the speed of the projectile increases to what it would have been if it had been the smaller size when fired from the weapon as for a weapon like a bow the power doesn't come inherently with the arrow but rather from the bow imparting it and even with magic the simplest thing would be to assume that momentum is maintained, even for guns the weight/size of the bullet after being fired doesn't matter if momentum is conserved as the amount of gunpowder used to fire it would be that of a large sized bullet and the bullet would only shrink after being fired.

2 year necro successful!