| 8 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
If you increase a line's dimensions by 100%, what is it going to look like on a grid?
If you increase a line's dimensions by 100%, what is it going to look like on a grid?
10' wide at it's normal range, perhaps? Needing Enlarge Spell to increase it's length?
Good question.
Twice as long and twice as wide?
120 x 1 turns into 240 x 2. So it hits a ten-foot hallway instead of a five-foot hallway.
But yet a "Line" has a range. So would it's range be affected?
But yet a "Line" has a range. So would it's range be affected?Twice as long and twice as wide?
120 x 1 turns into 240 x 2. So it hits a ten-foot hallway instead of a five-foot hallway.
Normally I would say no, but there really isn't a way of changing static range otherwise (enlarge spell and reach spell don't work on static ranges). Therefore, I think the INTENT is that it does increase to 240 feet.
Also, a line isn't really 5 feet wide normally. It's just a line. You draw it from the starting point to the end point and it effects all squares it passes through (but not those whose borders it merely touches like it did in v3.5).
So, how do you double the width of a line that has no definable width? Do you just draw a second parallel line five feet from the first?
So, how do you double the width of a line that has no definable width? Do you just draw a second parallel line feet from the first?
I think you just increase the distance by 100%.
Any numeric measurements of the spell's area increase by 100%
Area 120-ft. line
Only numeric measurement in the area is the distance of the spell. Contrary to the feat name, it doesn't change the width of a line, IMHO.
Lines have no width -- not even 0. Their width is not a number. Thus, Widen Spell cannot increase the width of a line, only the length.
However a line does affect anything within that 5' square (for example shooting it straight ahead). Would it not then be extended to anything within a 10' path?
|
Normally I would say no, but there really isn't a way of changing static range otherwise (enlarge spell and reach spell don't work on static ranges). Therefore, I think the INTENT is that it does increase to 240 feet.
Also, a line isn't really 5 feet wide normally. It's just a line. You draw it from the starting point to the end point and it effects all squares it passes through (but not those whose borders it merely touches like it did in v3.5).
So, how do you double the width of a line that has no definable width? Do you just draw a second parallel line five feet from the first?
So it does change the range, because that's the most elegant solution to the question that I can see.
And if a line has no width, then I suppose it only has one dimension: length. So you double all dimensions. You double the length.
However a line does affect anything within that 5' square (for example shooting it straight ahead). Would it not then be extended to anything within a 10' path?
Nope. The feat is really clear, IMHO.
Benefit: You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread-shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell's area increase by 100%. A widened spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat.
Any numeric values in the area are doubled. That's it. The area section of the lightning bolt spell is "120' line", and not "120' x 5' line".
PFSRD[/url]]A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect. A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares through which the line passes.
If a line effect truly had a width of "0", then it shouldn't to be able to affect all creatures in a 5' square, which would be the case of a square being shared by multiple tiny or fine sized creatures.
EDIT: A width of "0", in my opinion, is only held by a ray spell as it can only affect a single opponent/object.
If a line effect truly had a width of "0", then it shouldn't to be able to affect all creatures in a 5' square, which would be the case of a square being shared by multiple tiny or fine sized creatures.
This is a silly, specious argument. There is no measurement in Pathfinder smaller than the 5' square. If there was, you might have a point.
This is a silly, specious argument. There is no measurement in Pathfinder smaller than the 5' square. If there was, you might have a point.
SO, since there is no "measurement in Pathfinder smaller than 5'", a line would in effect then be doubled to 10'. As it is no longer bound affecting only those in a 5' path.
Incorrect. The width of a line is not measured. The rules state that any square that the line runs through is included. Because of basic rules of geometry, that makes the line 5' wide, but that's a property of the interaction of the rules for lines and the rules that govern the universe, not an actual width for the line. Lines have no width to be doubled, and the line cannot run through two squares at the same time precisely because it has no width.
This is a silly, specious argument. There is no measurement in Pathfinder smaller than the 5' square. If there was, you might have a point.
Actually, Tiny creatures take up a 2-1/2" square, and smaller creatures even less.
This is a silly, specious argument. There is no measurement in Pathfinder smaller than the 5' square. If there was, you might have a point.Actually, Tiny creatures take up a 2-1/2" square, and smaller creatures even less.
Incorrect. There is no such thing as a 2 1/2' square. Their space is listed as 2 1/2' simply to show that they can fit 4 to a 5' square. 2 1/2' squares do not exist in the rules. This is made abundantly clear by reading the rules:
Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.
Note that it doesn't talk about them taking up smaller squares -- it talks about more than one fitting into a single square. In Pathfinder, as in D&D, a square is 5'x5'. Period.
I like to think that lines are 5-feet wide and can be doubled to 10-feet. I think the "null" line I described is simply a tool used to determine which 5-foot squares are effected (in case you wanted to do a not-quite diagonal path or something).
I believe that to be the RAI, but it certainly isn't RAW.
And, as always, I'm only arguing RAW. I don't think it would be terribly overpowered to allow Widen Spell to make line spells 10' wide, although I have no basis for judgment on whether or not that's RAI.
It just isn't RAW.
Incorrect. The width of a line is not measured. The rules state that any square that the line runs through is included. Because of basic rules of geometry, that makes the line 5' wide, but that's a property of the interaction of the rules for lines and the rules that govern the universe, not an actual width for the line. Lines have no width to be doubled, and the line cannot run through two squares at the same time precisely because it has no width.
By the very nature that a line effect affects ALL creatures in a 5' square it passes through is, quite essentially, a 5' wide path.
Now, if the description for a line effect stated that it struck a single creature in each 5' square it passes through, that would be completely different.
EDIT: Sorry, had to bolt earlier for my regular Saturday game.
Anyone else care to offer insight (or at least a click of the FAQ button)?
Would not a widened Color Spray not simply be a 30'-cone?
Or would it double all dimensions on the grid?
Would not a widened Color Spray not simply be a 30'-cone?
Or would it double all dimensions on the grid?
You cannot widen a cone:
Benefit: You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread-shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell's area increase by 100%. A widened spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat.
Would not a widened Color Spray not simply be a 30'-cone?
Or would it double all dimensions on the grid?You cannot widen a cone:
Benefit: You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread-shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell's area increase by 100%. A widened spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat.
So, clearly the geometry involved is not still valid.
Would not a widened Color Spray not simply be a 30'-cone?
Or would it double all dimensions on the grid?You cannot widen a cone:
Benefit: You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread-shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell's area increase by 100%. A widened spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat.
However... a Cone is either a burst or emanation.
PFSRD][/url]A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won't go around corners.
|
The example in the book and the PRD shows quite clearly an Area spell that's a Line fills a number of 5 foot wide squares from any corner of the casters space to the limit of the spells range or until it hits a solid barrier that blocks line of effect.
Widen spell would make it 10 feet wide. I think it's fairly simple.
--Vrock, Paper, Scissors
The line is not five feet wide. If it were, aiming it directly northeast of me would hit both the square to my north and the square to my east.
The line hits every square it enters. There's no reasonable way for Widen Spell to "double" that.
By the very nature that a line effect affects ALL creatures in a 5' square it passes through is, quite essentially, a 5' wide path.
Now, if the description for a line effect stated that it struck a single creature in each 5' square it passes through, that would be completely different.
Note that it's inaccurate to call it a 5' wide path just because it affects all creatures in a 5' square it passes through. If a line barely passes through one corner of a 5' square, an extremely tiny creature in the opposite corner of the square is a little over 7' away (5 times the square root of 2, roughly 7.07). So if you're judging the width of the line by what it can affect, the line is 7' wide.
Except that that's only one side of the line; it can also barely pass through yet another corner and affect something 7' away on the other side of the line. So perhaps we should call it a 14' wide line?
Except that when it passes exactly through a corner, it doesn't affect either square on either side, not even that extremely tiny creature in the corner right next to it. Do we then call it a 0' wide line?
What we actually have is a line of undefined width, which (presumably for simplicity's sake) hits every creature it might possibly touch. I agree with those who have stated that since the width is not given as a numeric measurement, RAW the width of the line is not doubled.
Furthermore, how would you handle it if it was doubled? You can't just add squares on each side of the already affected squares; that's closer to tripling than doubling. The only reasonable way I can think of would be to draw two different lines from two different corners of your square and affect any creature in any square either line passed through, but that requires a change to the definition of a line spell, not a simple doubling of a numeric measurement.
Edit: ninja'd by AvalonXQ, who makes my same points much more succinctly.
|
|
I would rule it becomes a 120x10x10 line. I say this because all other "area" spells besides line have 3 dimension that double (effectively octupling their potential victim pool). To do otherwise for a line because it doesn't list the 5ft height/width would be somewhat unfair to me.
In most cases the extra width and height will be just as much disadvantage as advantage, and meta-magic is hard enough anyway.
For aiming I'd make them pick a corner to start and a corner to aim for and draw a line and guestimate.
I would think it would effect lines (( which are listed as effecting a 5 foot area)) as being doubled
Example: Lightning Bolt would effect a 240 area with a 10 foot line.
Maybe if the feat did not use up 3 spell slots higher, i would think differently. But at +3 to spell level, i do not see doubling the lines with as an unreasonable effect.
|
|
The line is not five feet wide. If it were, aiming it directly northeast of me would hit both the square to my north and the square to my east.
The line hits every square it enters. There's no reasonable way for Widen Spell to "double" that.
Are you looking at the same examples I am in the book or PRD? A diagonal line spell shooting northeast affects several 5 foot squares in a diagonal line to the limit of the spell.
A lightning bolt that orginates at the casters front right (northeast) corner would affect 16 squares (120ft.) in a diagonal line. It would only affect squares directly north east going only through corners, not borders.
A widened lightning bolt would basically be 2 lines smooshed together, choose one side or the other of your original line to affect.
Unfortunately I don't think the length of the bolt would double to 240 ft. only because you can't push the effect of the Area past the 120 ft. Range of the spell with the Widen metamagic feat, only Enlarge does that.
A spell's range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the range entry of the spell description. A spell's range is the maximum distance from you that the spell's effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell's point of origin. If any portion of the spell's area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.
--Vrocket Science
|
|
@Vrock: If I were a computer processing this then I would agree with you and say "the metamagic feat is useless." However, as I am a human I can decide that this is against the spirit of the metamagic feat to disallow this and only semantics* are being held against it. As such I would allow it anyway. I mean, you're paying for it with a +3 spell level adjust and having the feat, so why not? It's not like it's better to apply it to this kind of spell than any other area spell.
*Seriously. Just change the description to "Range: NA" and "Area: 5x5x120 ft line starting adjacent to the caster" and the meta-magic effect works without a hitch.
TL;DR - Metamagic already sucks. Don't make it worse with strict readings on its use.
The line is not five feet wide. If it were, aiming it directly northeast of me would hit both the square to my north and the square to my east.
The line hits every square it enters. There's no reasonable way for Widen Spell to "double" that.Are you looking at the same examples I am in the book or PRD? A diagonal line spell shooting northeast affects several 5 foot squares in a diagonal line to the limit of the spell.
A lightning bolt that orginates at the casters front right (northeast) corner would affect 16 squares (120ft.) in a diagonal line. It would only affect squares directly north east going only through corners, not borders.
A widened lightning bolt would basically be 2 lines smooshed together, choose one side or the other of your original line to affect.
Unfortunately I don't think the length of the bolt would double to 240 ft. only because you can't push the effect of the Area past the 120 ft. Range of the spell with the Widen metamagic feat, only Enlarge does that.
** spoiler omitted **
--Vrocket Science
Dang nabit, your right. worst yet "Enlarge feat" would not work with lighting bolt due to non-standard range listing. So doubling the spells with to 10 feet would be about all one could do.
druids do a little better with Call Lighting, due to the Medium (100 +10 feet/level) range.
So they could get 10-foot wide, 60 foot long, vertical bolts of lighting.
just rambling here,
|
|
@Vrock: If I were a computer processing this then I would agree with you and say "the metamagic feat is useless." However, as I am a human I can decide that this is against the spirit of the metamagic feat to disallow this and only semantics* are being held against it. As such I would allow it anyway. I mean, you're paying for it with a +3 spell level adjust and having the feat, so why not? It's not like it's better to apply it to this kind of spell than any other area spell.
*Seriously. Just change the description to "Range: NA" and "Area: 5x5x120 ft line starting adjacent to the caster" and the meta-magic effect works without a hitch.
TL;DR - Metamagic already sucks. Don't make it worse with strict readings on its use.
Hey that's just how the spell and feat interact by the RAW. If you want to tweak it for your game go ahead. Nothing wrong with Rule zeroing at all.
But in organized play a Widened Lightning bolt is 10 feet wide and only goes 120ft. I mean I play by the rules as they're written. I only tweak something if it really, really needs it. I don't see any reason to change the spell.
--Pet Vrock
|
|
@Vrock: If I were a computer processing this then I would agree with you and say "the metamagic feat is useless." However, as I am a human I can decide that this is against the spirit of the metamagic feat to disallow this and only semantics* are being held against it. As such I would allow it anyway. I mean, you're paying for it with a +3 spell level adjust and having the feat, so why not? It's not like it's better to apply it to this kind of spell than any other area spell.
*Seriously. Just change the description to "Range: NA" and "Area: 5x5x120 ft line starting adjacent to the caster" and the meta-magic effect works without a hitch.
TL;DR - Metamagic already sucks. Don't make it worse with strict readings on its use.
Hey that's just how the spell and feat interact by the RAW. If you want to tweak it for your game go ahead. Nothing wrong with Rule zeroing at all.
But in organized play a Widened Lightning bolt is 10 feet wide and only goes 120ft. I mean I play by the rules as they're written. I only tweak something if it really, really needs it. I don't see any reason to change the spell.
--Pet Vrock
Yeah, it's rule zero, but it's a classic "duh" rule zero to me*. Besides, I'd love to see how much extra collateral damage that character gets when doing this. 240ft is a *long* line to try to miss unfortunate targets with.
* I say this because from the perspective of characters in the game world it *is* a 5x5x120 area. Then again, this oddity would probably discounted as "Magic!"
A widened lightning bolt would basically be 2 lines smooshed together, choose one side or the other of your original line to affect.
Unfortunately I don't think the length of the bolt would double to 240 ft. only because you can't push the effect of the Area past the 120 ft. Range of the spell with the Widen metamagic feat, only Enlarge does that.
** spoiler omitted **
--Vrocket Science
Thank you for pointing this out to me. I had never noticed that spells weren't allowed to extend past their range (I thought that a Fireball could be cast with its origin at its max range, creating a normal 20' radius sphere).
Hey that's just how the spell and feat interact by the RAW. If you want to tweak it for your game go ahead. Nothing wrong with Rule zeroing at all.
But in organized play a Widened Lightning bolt is 10 feet wide and only goes 120ft. I mean I play by the rules as they're written. I only tweak something if it really, really needs it. I don't see any reason to change the spell.
But note that you've already changed the rules as written when you made it "2 lines smooshed together, choose one side or the other of your original line to affect." Widen Spell says "Any numeric measurements of the spell's area increase by 100%." Lightning Bolt does NOT say 120' x 5' line (or 120' x 5' x 5' line). The definition of a line also says nothing about a 5' width. And nowhere can you find a rule to smoosh two lines together.
As you said, there's nothing wrong with tweaking RAW for your game (and, indeed, if you want Widen Spell to affect your Lightning Bolt at all, you really, really need to tweak it). But RAW a Widened Lightning Bolt becomes: Range: 120'; Area: 240' line. By the definition of a line, it only affects creatures in the 5' squares the line passes through. By the definition of range, it doesn't affect anything farther than 120' away.
Edit: typo in last sentence.
|
|
How do you draw a 10' wide line in a grid? I can only think of arbitrary methods to do it that aren't very consistent.
The same way you do 5' wide lines, but instead of picking a start square and a destination square you pick a start corner and a destination corner.
In both cases you have to "guesstimate" when you get weird angles.
How do you draw a 10' wide line in a grid? I can only think of arbitrary methods to do it that aren't very consistent.The same way you do 5' wide lines, but instead of picking a start square and a destination square you pick a start corner and a destination corner.
In both cases you have to "guesstimate" when you get weird angles.
Actually, lines already require you to pick a start corner. From the definition of a line: "It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect." Assuming that you also pick a destination corner (Is that explicitly stated anywhere? The examples seem to assume it.), no guesstimiation is required at all.
I agree that methods to get a 10' wide line are going to be arbitrary. I already suggested possibly choosing two corners and drawing two lines. Someone else suggested smooshing two lines. If you want to keep it as clean as the orignal, you could create groups of four 5' squares into 10' squares (that is, pretend you're playing on a grid of 10' squares, making sure that the origin corner is still the corner of one of the bigger squares), draw the line as before, and hit every creature in each 10' square it passes through.
The difficulty in creating a 10' wide line is part of the reason that while I think that RAI the range should be doubled, I'm still not convinced that the width should be.
The line is not five feet wide. If it were, aiming it directly northeast of me would hit both the square to my north and the square to my east.
The line hits every square it enters. There's no reasonable way for Widen Spell to "double" that.Are you looking at the same examples I am in the book or PRD? A diagonal line spell shooting northeast affects several 5 foot squares in a diagonal line to the limit of the spell.
A lightning bolt that orginates at the casters front right (northeast) corner would affect 16 squares (120ft.) in a diagonal line. It would only affect squares directly north east going only through corners, not borders.
A widened lightning bolt would basically be 2 lines smooshed together, choose one side or the other of your original line to affect.
Unfortunately I don't think the length of the bolt would double to 240 ft. only because you can't push the effect of the Area past the 120 ft. Range of the spell with the Widen metamagic feat, only Enlarge does that.
** spoiler omitted **
--Vrocket Science
scroll up to his post for the spoiler part. But he is right, by RAW the spell can not be larger than 120 feet due to the effect and the Range are listed individuality. This means that the spell can not be extended past its range of 120, there by limiting the effect to also 120.
PS= The range as listed is non-standard, as such, by RAW it two can not be extended by the extend range feat. This prevents the range from being extended by one feat, to allow the effect to be extended by the other feat.
As you said, there's nothing wrong with tweaking RAW for your game (and, indeed, if you want Widen Spell to affect your Lightning Bolt at all, you really, really need to tweak it). But RAW a Widened Lightning Bolt becomes: Range: 120'; Area: 240' line. By the definition of a line, it only affects creatures in the 5' squares the line passes through. By the definition of range, it doesn't affect anything farther than 120' away.
+1.
I don't see anything that specifies the physical width of a line. It affects things in each 5' square it passes through, but that doesn't mean it is 5' wide.
As far as I can tell, this is entirely academic anyway. By my count, there are exactly five spells that are line spells that are low enough level to qualify for the Widen feat (Repel Metal or Stone(8th) and Sunbeam(7th) are too high). There is no Widen metamagic Rod, so you have to be able to cast the higher level spell, no matter how you get there.
Lightning Bolt
Repel Wood
Dragon's Breath
Hydraulic Torrent
River of Wind
They all have the same area and range values, so Widening doesn't provide any benefit. Honestly, for +3 wouldn't someone rather Maximize instead of Widen, or for that matter, use Chain Lightning instead of Lightning?
I think this has been an entertaining discussion, but really has no practical application, which is likely why this issue has been unresolved in 3.5 (and probably earlier).
Are you looking at the same examples I am in the book or PRD? A diagonal line spell shooting northeast affects several 5 foot squares in a diagonal line to the limit of the spell.The line is not five feet wide. If it were, aiming it directly northeast of me would hit both the square to my north and the square to my east.
The line hits every square it enters. There's no reasonable way for Widen Spell to "double" that.
Yes I am. The diagrams are consistent with a zero-width line that affects each square it enters. If the line has any width at all, then the line angled northeast should hit both the square directly to the north and the square directly to the east. It doesn't. Ergo, the line isn't five feet wide; it's zero feet wide. Doubling it doesn't do anything.
FAQ'd!
FAQ'd!
Thanks Sean! You're an awesome dude!
In your FAQ entry you say enlarge spell would work to increase the range of a line, however, enlarge spell can't double the range of spells with a fixed range (such as lightning bolt).
What's more, as written, Widen Spell does NOT work with ANY published line spell in ANY Pathfinder product even though the intent of the feat was clearly to allow it to work on line spells (otherwise, why mention line spells at all?).
You might want to revise your entry.
In your FAQ entry you say enlarge spell would work to increase the range of a line, however, enlarge spell can't double the range of spells with a fixed range (such as lightning bolt).
What's more, as written, Widen Spell does NOT work with ANY published line spell in ANY Pathfinder product even though the intent of the feat was clearly to allow it to work on line spells (otherwise, why mention line spells at all?).
You might want to revise your entry.
That's why it's suggested as a house rule--according to the RAW, it simply doesn't work, so you have to apply a kludge.
|
|
In your FAQ entry you say enlarge spell would work to increase the range of a line, however, enlarge spell can't double the range of spells with a fixed range (such as lightning bolt).
We must be reading different FAQs. It says it doesn't work. It says it would be a reasonable house rule to change it. But, you don't use houserules, so....no long lines for you! /soup nazi off/