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For those who make it a point of pride to always roll, do you actually play characters with mediocre or gimpy stats or do you roll until you have something you feel is playable?
Always played what I rolled, and always had fun!!.. It still hurts me inside that I consented to your whining in my game.. ;)
I gave my players the option in my most recent game, and all of them chose to roll. A few of us are old skool roleplayers, and our tendancies have rubbed off on the newer folk.
That said, 3d6 in order is good for games like AD&D or HMB, but 3.x, I'm not sure that would fly with my group.
CEO
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It would be great if we periodically heard some stories from said game. As I prepare to start a Kingmaker campaign, I would be interested in how things develop.We just started our Kingmaker campaign...
-Lisa
I've been thinking about making it a regular Paizo blog post, but then again, I wanted to do that for my Rise of the Runelords campaign and I just never found the time. But I will see what I can do this time around. :)
-Lisa
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I've been thinking about making it a regular Paizo blog post, but then again, I wanted to do that for my Rise of the Runelords campaign and I just never found the time. But I will see what I can do this time around. :)
-Lisa
For an hour a week tell Erik he's in charge of all decisions, lock yourself in your office, write up your blog post, and hope that he hasn't accepted payment of some new product in magic beans.
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For those who make it a point of pride to always roll, do you actually play characters with mediocre or gimpy stats or do you roll until you have something you feel is playable?Always played what I rolled, and always had fun!!.. It still hurts me inside that I consented to your whining in my game.. ;)
Uh, re-roll less than a 20-point buy was your rule :)
And I went from a -1 point buy to something like a 32-point buy. I'm guessing the same goes on for a lot of players that "always roll."
For an hour a week tell Erik he's in charge of all decisions, lock yourself in your office, write up your blog post, and hope that he hasn't accepted payment of some new product in magic beans.
We're not supposed to purchase Paizo products with beans?
On topic, my Friday game (which I play in currently) is using a 32-point buy for Kingmaker. Normally we roll or use 25-point buy. My Sunday game which I am running, we used 4d6 reroll 1s drop lowest. We roll together at the table and sometimes, I see a roll that simply blinds me and erases my memory of the roll. So my players have decent stats, but for this adventure (a homebrew pirate adventure) the stats have come in handy for extra skills, bonus to Profession (sailor) and so on.
I always used point buy when doing the PBP thing, but my in-house game we like to roll. BTW physical rolling is way more satisfying than using a program to do it (as cool as they are).
This only works on virtual dice but I've been thinking about doing 9+1d9 for stats, anyone tried it?
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This only works on virtual dice but I've been thinking about doing 9+1d9 for stats, anyone tried it?
I'm no math scientist but I think doing that gives a greater chance of clusters toward the high end.
The chance of getting a 10 with 4d6-drop is something like 1/11 and the chance of getting an 18 is 1/62.
With 1d9+9 the chance of getting either a 10 or an 18 is 1/9.
Edit: I am no grammar scientist either.
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This only works on virtual dice but I've been thinking about doing 9+1d9 for stats, anyone tried it?I'm no math scientist but I think doing that gives a greater chance of clusters toward the high end.
The chance of getting a 10 with 4d6-drop is something like 1/11 and the chance of getting an 18 is 1/62.
With 1d9+9, you are making the chance of getting either a 10 or an 18 is 1/9.
1/9 chance of 0 point buy equivalent, so no contribution
1/9 chance of +1, so +1/91/9 chance of +2, so +2/9
3/9
5/9
7/9
10/9
13/9
17/9
Total of: 58/9 or 6.444... point buy equivalent per stat, for a total of 38 2/3 point buy.
"Bah" I say! If your going to roll for stats it's 3d6 straight down the line or you aren't doing it right at all. ;)
I'm horrible at dice methods, either I get all good or all terrible or like straight 10's.
I wish. My group would probably throw punches if I tried to force them to do that.
I recently started two games. In the first, we did 2d6+6, arranged to suit the characters. Would have been great, but ended up giving too many characters too high stats. Druid had an 18 Str, 14 Con, Dex, and Wis, and a freakin 17 Wis. Insane. (I had to drop him off a cliff for balance purposes. Don't tell anyone).
Second game we tried the 28d6 dice pool method. I would prefer, probably, a 26d6 pool, but my players are rebellious. If they can't min/max like crazy... The players still had minor fits when things didn't go their way. Pretty sad.
Probably in the future we'll try the 4d6 drop the lowest method again. Cry babies will have to live with not having an 18 in a stat for a change. Sheesh.
For those who make it a point of pride to always roll, do you actually play characters with mediocre or gimpy stats or do you roll until you have something you feel is playable?
When I DM, I usually have my players use 6 + 3d6 drop the lowest, so 'mediocre' or 'gimpy' just doesn't happen.
When I am playing a PC and roll bad stats, yes, I do play that character. I once played an elf, for example, where I rolled 3 for constitution (and remember that elves get a -2 constitution penalty). :) It was a fun game, though eventually the elf succumbed the combination of having poor health and leading a dangerous life of adventure.
I used to love rolling. I still do. My only problem as a GM. When you have literally every one of your players come up with an 18, and majority of them have multiple 18's (Just enough to cover their main stats) and this isn't isolated to one group, it seems when I play with brand new groups this issue comes up over and over. I became disenfranchised with rolling. It seems a large majority of people can't resist cheating or trying to fool the GM. So, now to avoid the "you guys have to be cheating" argument I just start out point buy and I never have to worry about it again.
If you love rolling why not institute a policy that all rolls should be in the open in front of everyone? Apart from solving your problem, it can also help institute a group spirit right from the start with the players cheering each other on, as they roll their stats. :)
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For those who make it a point of pride to always roll, do you actually play characters with mediocre or gimpy stats or do you roll until you have something you feel is playable?Always played what I rolled, and always had fun!!.. It still hurts me inside that I consented to your whining in my game.. ;)Uh, re-roll less than a 20-point buy was your rule :)
And I went from a -1 point buy to something like a 32-point buy. I'm guessing the same goes on for a lot of players that "always roll."
I only made the rule because of you, was not even thinking about doing that at all, I was orginally going to have it the first roll no matter what! You are lucky I let you reroll that 1 on your HP last game, of course you are unlucky that you rolled a one again ;).
I do. Never actually been part of a group that does any sort of array or point buy.
For those who make it a point of pride to always roll, do you actually play characters with mediocre or gimpy stats or do you roll until you have something you feel is playable?
Of course. Duh.
Anyone who would waste any our time complaining about "mediocre" stats wouldn't fit in with us.
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I only made the rule because of you, was not even thinking about doing that at all, I was orginally going to have it the first roll no matter what! You are lucky I let you reroll that 1 on your HP last game, of course you are unlucky that you rolled a one again ;).For those who make it a point of pride to always roll, do you actually play characters with mediocre or gimpy stats or do you roll until you have something you feel is playable?Always played what I rolled, and always had fun!!.. It still hurts me inside that I consented to your whining in my game.. ;)Uh, re-roll less than a 20-point buy was your rule :)
And I went from a -1 point buy to something like a 32-point buy. I'm guessing the same goes on for a lot of players that "always roll."
You said that rule was in effect before anyone rolled and I think two or three of us had to use it.
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For those who make it a point of pride to always roll, do you actually play characters with mediocre or gimpy stats or do you roll until you have something you feel is playable?Of course. Duh.
Anyone who would waste any our time complaining about "mediocre" stats wouldn't fit in with us.
So you roll 4d6-drop-the-lowest one time and live with the results every time? In Pathfinder games?
Not a sarcastic question, I'm curious.
About 6 or 7 years ago we had two players that were bad dice rollers. One could never roll anything higher than a 13 and the other guy cheated to get 15s and higher. The GM decided he had enough and started rolling our stats for us. He rolled 4d6, drop the lowest, arrange as desired. He rolled one set that everyone used.
Those two bad dice rollers no longer play with us but we continue to have the GM roll stats every game. He gives us the option to roll our own but he has such good dice mojo, we go with his rolls instead of chancing rolling low for ourselves.
Also, when we gain a level he has us all roll our hit dice together, then allows the group to decide which individual can reroll theirs, taking the better of their two rolls. That's saved plenty of melee types from having to live with a 1 on a d10 or d12. Of course good stats and slightly higher hit points generally means fewer magic items and slightly less gold for us in the long run to keep us balanced, but we make due.
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You said that rule was in effect before anyone rolled and I think two or three of us had to use it.
You complained before we rolled. First thing you said when I said I was doing 4d6 was that You really hated Dace rolling and wanted to know if we can do Point buy, Actually you may have even told me that before I said Our Method for stats!
I only made the Min rule because of your hatred of Rolling stats.
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You said that rule was in effect before anyone rolled and I think two or three of us had to use it.
You complained before we rolled. First thing you said when I said I was doing 4d6 was that You really hated Dace rolling and wanted to know if we can do Point buy, Actually you may have even told me that before I said Our Method for stats!
I only made the Min rule because of your hatred of Rolling stats.
Oh, ok. Well I'll change my stats back to 11, 10, 10, 9, 8, and 8 then.
I like 3d6+2
Strength- 3d6+2
Dexterity- 3d6+2
Constitution- 3d6+2
Intelligence- 3d6+2
Wisdom- 3d6+2
Charisma- 3d6+2
Dude...I think 3d6+3 might be the new standard for me.
So you roll 4d6-drop-the-lowest one time and live with the results every time? In Pathfinder games?
No, not quite, and no. [LOL ;)]
To be a little more succinct:
- roll 4d6-drop-the-lowest one time (in front of everyone);
- if you don't like that roll, you can choose 25 point-buy (3.5 version - not sure what the equivalent Pathfinder point-buy would be);
- In 3.5 games.
(To this day, none of us has ever chosen the point-buy.)
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Strangely I've noticed that if I advertise the idea that we're going to do a straight 3d6 it keeps players away, but if I spring it on them spontaneously, they seem to enjoy themselves more. It seems that players fantasize about power gaming, but actually have more fun playing limited characters.Preston, I think you're exactly right. As long as nobody's forced to play with clearly untenable stats (like 8, 7, 5, 3, 3, 3), it's fun.I Played a Gully Dwarf Rogue once with a 10 in dex, 2 3s, a 5 and a 8, to this day that was the most fun I have had in a game!
Yeah, I totally do that. I love creating concept characters that I power-game, but when it comes to playing I'll have more fun with the sub-optimal ones.
I use the power-game-concept side of me for BBEGs and call it good. I still have a couple up my sleeve that are particularly dastardly *evil laugh*
I prefer point buy. I've posted on the subject in some of the other threads addressing this, and enjoyed the heat from the flames. But seriously, I've noticed that "old-schoolers" tend to favor rolling by large amounts. I'm an old-schooler myself, but I switched to point buy and have never looked back. I'll roll if the group I'm with demands it, no problem, but I like the balance of point buy. Rolling is exciting, I'll give it that, and certainly leads to interesting characters when more restrictive systems are used. Whatever method is most fun for a given group, that is the best method.
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I think the reason you see so many people using point buy on rules discussion threads is because 15 or 20 point buy is about low-average to generous-average of what any given character's stats are always going to be. They provide an even baseline working theoretically on how different abilities work and what various given builds will probably look like.
I think at the actual table, as many people use point buy as they do die rolling--and particularly here you have a lot of longtime gamers who use die rolling because that's what they've always done (and it's fun!). As a GM I use point buy because I have too many times seen people with wildly disparate stats from rolling and thus have different characters with effectively different power levels, which is too hard for me as a GM to try and prepare for.
It is not the right or wrong way, it is just the way I prefer.
ETA: Because I always have to do this in every thread that talks about die rolling, here's my oldskool 3d6 in order roll for the prospective character I will never play:
Str: 3d6
Dex: 3d6
Con: 3d6
Int: 3d6
Wis: 3d6
Cha: 3d6(I know it used to be in a different order but I don't remember what it was.)
Good lord, I don't know what the heck I could do with that. I think a race where I can get an Int or Wisdom bonus and try for Wizard or Druid.
The old way was
Str
Int
Wis
Dex
Con
Chr
Com (for those of you that used the Unearthed Arcana comeliness rules)
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This only works on virtual dice but I've been thinking about doing 9+1d9 for stats, anyone tried it?I'm no math scientist but I think doing that gives a greater chance of clusters toward the high end.
The chance of getting a 10 with 4d6-drop is something like 1/11 and the chance of getting an 18 is 1/62.
With 1d9+9 the chance of getting either a 10 or an 18 is 1/9.
I wrote-up a quick die-rolling simulator a while back.
Here's the rough frequencies of 4D6, dropping the lowest die:
Result - Frequency:
3: 0.1%
4: 0.3%
5: 0.9%
6: 1.5%
7: 3.0%
8: 4.6%
9: 7.0%
10: 9.4%
11: 11.4%
12: 12.8%
13: 13.5%
14: 12.0%
15: 10.0%
16: 7.6%
17: 4.3%
18: 1.6%
Whereas 9 + 1D9 is all 11.1%
In other words, with 9 + 1D9 you lose the chance of having anything below 10, which is roughly 19% or so. Thus, with 4D6 drop 1, you can expect one attribute with negative modifier.
The average point-buy cost of 9 + 1D9 is a whopping 38. 4D6 drop 1 averages around 20, making it roughly equivalent to the usual point-buy of PFS characters.
Also, 1D9 need not be only in virtual dice. Roll a D10, and if it comes-up as a 0, roll it again.
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I wrote-up a quick die-rolling simulator a while back.Here's the rough frequencies of 4D6, dropping the lowest die:
Result - Frequency:
3: 0.1%
4: 0.3%
5: 0.9%
6: 1.5%
7: 3.0%
8: 4.6%
9: 7.0%
10: 9.4%
11: 11.4%
12: 12.8%
13: 13.5%
14: 12.0%
15: 10.0%
16: 7.6%
17: 4.3%
18: 1.6%
Whereas 9 + 1D9 is all 11.1%
In other words, with 9 + 1D9 you lose the chance of having anything below 10, which is roughly 19% or so. Thus, with 4D6 drop 1, you can expect one attribute with negative modifier.The average point-buy cost of 9 + 1D9 is a whopping 38. 4D6 drop 1 averages around 20, making it roughly equivalent to the usual point-buy of PFS characters.
Also, 1D9 need not be only in virtual dice. Roll a D10, and if it comes-up as a 0, roll it again.
*cough*
This only works on virtual dice but I've been thinking about doing 9+1d9 for stats, anyone tried it?I'm no math scientist but I think doing that gives a greater chance of clusters toward the high end.
The chance of getting a 10 with 4d6-drop is something like 1/11 and the chance of getting an 18 is 1/62.
With 1d9+9, you are making the chance of getting either a 10 or an 18 is 1/9.
1/9 chance of 0 point buy equivalent, so no contribution
1/9 chance of +1, so +1/9
1/9 chance of +2, so +2/9
3/9
5/9
7/9
10/9
13/9
17/9
Total of: 58/9 or 6.444... point buy equivalent per stat, for a total of 38 2/3 point buy.
Math is your friend ;)
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Math is your friend ;)
Math is clearly NOT my friend. Also, I need to make friends with 'Reading the whole thread' at some point.
I usually like to force a machine to do the hard mathy stuff.
Other average point-buy equivalents for dice-rolling schemes:
1D10 + 8 = 34 points
1D12 + 6 = 25 points
1D16 + 2 = 9 points
1D18 + 0 = 2 points
1D20 + 0 = 15 points
Mind you, I'm extrapolating some of the point-buy values for very low and very high stats, e.g. a 3 is worth -8 points, and a 20 is worth 25.
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Math is your friend ;)Math is clearly NOT my friend. Also, I need to make friends with 'Reading the whole thread' at some point.
I usually like to force a machine to do the hard mathy stuff.
Other average point-buy equivalents for dice-rolling schemes:
1D10 + 8 = 34 points
1D12 + 6 = 25 points
1D16 + 2 = 9 points
1D18 + 0 = 2 points
1D20 + 0 = 15 pointsMind you, I'm extrapolating some of the point-buy values for very low and very high stats, e.g. a 3 is worth -8 points, and a 20 is worth 25.
Yeah, if you want to brute-force the calculation of the die roll results it's better to run the system through the permutations of those rolls (basically every possible result) unless the die roll is unbelievingly complicated. You only use the method you used if the probabilities of each result are unknown or based on such extremely complicated math as to be impractical to calculate.
For example, if you had 4d6 drop the lowest, you would have the computer loop through every possible combination of four numbers, add its point buy equivalent to an accumulator, then divide by the number of combinations. As long as you use a big enough integer to store the total, that is. For die rolling a regular integer is probably more than enough, since even an average of 100 point buy on 4 d6s is only a total of 129,600; This is much less than the ~4 billion maximum of an unsigned integer.Okay, yeah, you're probably safe leaving the math to those who've studied it. I just remembered that there was a whole segment in my math classes about dealing with error derived from the limitations of the machines doing the math.
Brute forcing is probably "close enough" as long as you run it through several thousand iterations.
PS: Sometimes I wonder whether my math nerdiness is worth being 1.74% more accurate on this kind of crap.
Is there any particular method that can be used to calculate the probability of getting a particular result when rolling X dice with Y sides and dropping Z lowest dice? I mean a generalized method or formula; not a brute force method of calculating it (or having the computer do so).
It could probably be done statistically by calculating the mean and standard deviation of each die and working with that, but I would prefer to know the true probability-based method, rather than this roundabout way of doing it.
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Is there any particular method that can be used to calculate the probability of getting a particular result when rolling X dice with Y sides and dropping Z lowest dice? I mean a generalized method or formula; not a brute force method of calculating it (or having the computer do so).
It could probably be done statistically by calculating the mean and standard deviation of each die and working with that, but I would prefer to know the true probability-based method, rather than this roundabout way of doing it.
The math for that would not be high-school level, and brute-forcing is rather quick for a computer to do with any practical rolling method.
In short: Probably, but it isn't worth it.
I did at one point work out the probabilities (via math, not brute-forcing) for 4d6 drop the lowest, but that was from the angle of "what's the average stat" not "what's the average point buy equivalent."
Does anyone know what the standard deviation in point buy value is for 4d6 drop lowest?
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Does anyone know what the standard deviation in point buy value is for 4d6 drop lowest?
I tend to focus on averages since characters are by definition supposed to be "outside" normal statistical probability by their heroic nature.
Then again, it may add one extra layer of verisimilitude if you can estimate how many people would be at certain stat levels... But I would use 3d6 for that, which would be easier to calculate.I would calculate it, but my brain's occupied with a programming project.
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I usually let them roll 6 times, 4D6, re-roll '1's.
Then, one re-rolled stat,but you have to take the result, even if it is lower.
I offer a 25 Pt buy instead, but nobody takes me up on it.
A few players roll in order for fun, build a character from there. I like this fro time to time, as a player.
-Uriel