Did you roll an attack roll to hit a target you splashed? Not the main target, who we know you critted, but that guy you splashed, did you have to make an attack roll against him? If no, then I would say you don't get to crit with splash damage. IIRC rogues can't get SA with splash damage, so why would a crit multiply that damage?
That said, I don't see how it would be too powerful, so go for it.
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I'm not sure what you're asking here: Do you mean can a direct hit with a splash damage weapon crit, or, Does the splash damage to surrounding squares crit, too?
Either way, the answer is probably no. Splash damage weapons don't have a critical range or multiplier, and cannot get criticals. It's not too much of a stretch, though, to give a "20/x2" to an alchemist's bomb, and say he hit the target's face (or whatever), but that still wouldn't apply people in the surrounding squares, as a)you don't roll to hit them, b)you don't roll damage for them, and c)what does it matter to them where you hit the first guy?
As for whether the "extra" d6s gained at higher levels are doubled, that's kind of a moot point, because you'd be house-ruling in the crit in the first place (so do whatever you like), but if you are allowing a bomb to crit the full damage, with the extra d6s gained from being a high-level alchemist, should be doubled as well. This isn't "precision damage" (king of the opposite, in fact), or a "special weapon quality" (unless we're talking about discoveries), but rather how much base damage the bomb does at that level, just like a monk's unarmed attack.
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Bombs definitely can deal critical hits:
"The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike)."
A little earlier, it states that "Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus", which means I'd allow Improved Critical as well.
If you want to allow it, as the GM, great, more power to you. You are responsible for balancing the game in your own group. As far as RAW goes, though... what is the threat range for a bomb? What is the multiplier? And where are you finding these stats?
The damage from spells that have an attack roll crit on a 20 and do x2. The same applies for bombs it doesn't have to say it, all attack rolls can crit. The minimum damage would not doubled though because it would no longer be minimum. The damage of the splash then would remain the same.
I've got a question that's splash related and I'll just tack it on here rather than creating a new thread, since I'm sure it can be answered simply.
Thrown splash weapon rules state the splash goes out to all creatures within 5' range of target. I'm inferring from the rules that if the target is large or bigger in size, the splash will hit more squares? Whereas trying to picture it in my head it seems more like the square the bomb landed in would get the target, and splash would hit all around it (allowing for extra splash damage on the target).
I'm sure its the former but I've never had much thrown splash in my games and am now running for an alchemist. Thanks.
AFB ATM but this is pretty clear cut by RAW.
PFSRD says: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a "threat," meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or "crit").
Therefore, only the direct hit from the bomb can do critical damage.
*edit* @Atavist: There's nothing by the RAW that says that large bombs increase splash radius, but your game = your rules.
*edit* @Atavist: There's nothing by the RAW that says that large bombs increase splash radius, but your game = your rules.
Ah yes, but my problem is a little different than that. You throw a standard bomb at a goblin, hits, it splashes 8 squares around him. But say you fight a colossal creature. You throw a standard bomb at it, hits, it splashes 28 squares around him.
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Thanks for all the input.
I am specifically not talking about the direct hit damage, which it's pretty clear is doubled on a crit, just the splash damage to surrounding squares.
This actually came up on a PFS PbP on these boards, so I thought I'd drag it here for further clarification.
Would be nice to see an official response/FAQ.
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Just remember the general principle. If it's not subject to an attack roll to hit, then criticals don't enter the picture, whether it's splash damage or spells.
That's why Scorching Ray can crit, but not Fireball, or Magic Missle.
That, I think is where it gets ambiguous though. The "Attack" is subject to an attack roll, and a crit.
I'm erring on the same side you are. The fact that a splash weapon can still cause splash damage when it misses, implies the splash damage is separate from the damage dealt by the attack you roll for, it's just in a similar location....
My group and I made a lvl 10 one-shot adventure where I tried out the melee version of the Alchemist (7 lvl alchemist and 3 lvl Master chymist) diden't really pan out, as he took a few rounds to get into high gear. So for the actual campaign i plan to go ranged insted, focusing on bombs and AOE damage. I've read and re-read the rules, forum and official FAQ's and the following is the RAW data.
(GM has the final say ofc. but tweeking a character is not against the rules, and possible with all classes and races)
RAW
"Splash damage from an alchemist bomb is ALWAYS >>EQUAL<< to the bomb's minimum damage" (page 28)
My alchemist bomber is build around an Half-Orc with maximum int and the "Deadly Aim" and "Point Blank" feat.
SO:
Direct damage:
XD6 + Int + Point blank + Deadly Aim + Half Orc bonus damage (APG page 19)
Splash damage:
XD1 + Int + Point blank + Deadly Aim + Half Orc bonus damage (see RAW)
AND
Crit direct damage:
XD6 + 1D6 + 2*(Int + Point blank + Deadly Aim + Half Orc bonus damage)
Crit splash damage:
XD1 + 1D1 + 2*(Int + Point blank + Deadly Aim + Half Orc bonus damage)
Thrown splash weapon page 202 in the core rulebook stats that bombs can't be used on precision BASED damage. So damage that is dependant on precision like sneak attack and skirmish is out of the question. BUT IT CAN DO precision damage like crit and "Vital Strike" (on first D6) so "Deadly Aim" is viable.
SO
what i've made is a high end AOE damager. With sticky bombs for extra splash damage the round after on the direct target.. he's in for a lot of hurt. Combine that with Force bombs, and there's no longer any saves or damage reduction from ur direct target, force resistance only, and splash victims can REF for half
I stand corrected. The RAW does indeed say that "(this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike)." I do find it odd, but there it is.
I think it makes perfect sense: You never try to hit the secondary targets. You try to hit the primary. It hits the primary target (and, in the case of a crit, dealing a bit more damage, but not too much, since the extra d6s are not multiplied) and then some of it splashes off on those unfortunate enough to be around. You can't really control the splash (you don't make an attack roll to direct it), it just splashes around a bit. People can make a reflex save to get away from it.
Thus, you don't get any extra splash damage in case of a critical direct hit - the primary target might get the thing right in the face, or something like that, but the rest is still just something akin to a low-powered fireball centred on the primary target.
I don't see it. What lets you bypass the you can't use deadly aim on touch attack rule in that?
I'm not sure I understand your question. "Deadly aim" states ANY ranged attack can make use of this feat (a ranged touch attack is still a ranged attack). My point was, that people argumenting that the "Deadly aim" text states the damage is precision and hence can't be used according to Thrown splash weapon page 202, are wrong as bombs can crit (hit a vital spot). There's a difference in "have to be precision" (that's what the "based" means) and "able to be precision"
ANY D20 attack roll can crit, that goes for bombs too.
You don't roll for the splash damage, and hence don't crit on the splash as stated earlier in this thread. >>BUT<< as the splash damage is a byproduct of the direct damage, you get the bonus from crit anyways (the higher the main damage, the higher the secondary damage APG page 19). This is only the case for alchemist bombs. Other thrown splash weapons don't get this bonus as their splash damage are fixed at 1
Here's an example:
I roll a natural 20 and confirm my crit. I'm lvl 7 so my bombs do 4D6. I have an Int of 20, and the Point blank + Deadly Aim feats. I'm within the 30 feet range, and a Half-Orc with 7 damage bonus favored lvls.
The math will be as follows:
Direct: 2x 1D6 +3D6 +2x (+5 (int) +1 (PB) +4 (DA) +3 (half-orc))
Total = 5D6+26 making the minimum damage 5+26=31 and as mentioned ealier: splash damage = minimum damage.
I suppose you could use deadly aim on a ranged touch attack by RAW. But you don't get the bonus damage so what would be the benefit.
Damnit.. your right.. missed the "The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage" part :(
Just have to go hunt for other feats, items or spells that adds to the bombs damage then :)
Personally, I interpret the "splash damage = minimum damage" as being a variable factor. If a bomb does 3d6+2 normally, then lands a crit, the crit damage is 4d6+4, and the minimum damage therefore increases from 5 to 8.
My methods are as inscrutable as my goatlike little kobold eyes.
Friend was wondering if splash damage would be increased for a non-alchemist by effects like prayer. I was searching, but couldn't find anything. Then I noticed this thread and thought I'd give my thoughts. :)
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I interpret the "splash damage = minimum damage" as being a variable factor. If a bomb does 3d6+2 normally, then lands a crit, the crit damage is 4d6+4, and the minimum damage therefore increases from 5 to 8.
I like this idea, but I could see problems with it.
Would that mean, critical hit or not, that an Alchemist/Ranger could effectively add their Favored Enemy bonus to the Splash damage? Since it raises the minimum damage of the Bomb?
Sure, but that's already how it works. PBS, Favored Enemy and Prayer all increase splash damage. The question is if a crit does.
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Sure, but that's already how it works. PBS, Favored Enemy and Prayer all increase splash damage.
Pretty sure they do not. I've heard it argued before, but nothing strongly in favor of that sort if interpretation.
Then again, perhaps I missed a big debate. I've never played an Alchemist before, but I've also never encountered one in person that tried to claim this.
The difference is litterally 1 point of damage, just toss a coin to decide and go on.
Actually, it's 1+Int. Plus stuff like prayer, in this case. Trust me, it makes a big difference.
Splash damage from an alchemist bomb is always equal to the bomb's minimum damage (so if the bomb would deal 2d6+4 points of fire damage on a direct hit, its splash damage would be 6 points of fire damage).
Note that they specify the bomb's total damage, not the alchemist's level or Int. This leads me to conclude that it is the simple, plain damage value that matters.
Would you at least include Int boosts in this minimum damage value? Then why not other temporary benefits?
Critical hits require an attack roll. Splash damage does not have an attack roll, so like a fireball, cannot critically hit.
Except the splash damage in this case comes from a multiplied effect—the bomb minimum damage.
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I include Int damage, obviously, because that's a part of the Bomb class feature. The bonus damage from the in-text example has to come from somewhere.
But I've never heard a good argument for why things like Prayer, or Favored Enemy, would increase Splash damage.
Care to enlighten me?
Alchemists everywhere would probably like to know.
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Critical hits require an attack roll. Splash damage does not have an attack roll, so like a fireball, cannot critically hit.
I can get behind the idea that crits increase splash damage.
Not because I think the splash damage is multiplied.
But because the actual damage of the Bomb is higher.
And it makes sense, thematically.
I just explained why. Splash damage is based on minimum damage. An extra bonus like Favored Enemy increases the minimum damage.
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I just explained why. Splash damage is based on minimum damage. An extra bonus like Favored Enemy increases the minimum damage.
Except there's nothing in the Bomb class feature that specifies whether outside damage bonuses affect splash damage.
That's why I'm favoring the idea of crits increasing the splash damage by a few points. That's covered in the class feature, I feel.
But I think we're going to need more evidence for stuff like Prayer and Favored Enemy (even a Developer comment would be nice).
There's nothing that specifies it doesn't. It just says "minimum damage". I think I have more evidence for than there is against.
Mark Seifter explained his and my interpretation of that FAQ. See above.
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Sure, but that's already how it works. PBS, Favored Enemy and Prayer all increase splash damage. The question is if a crit does.The FAQ disagrees:Point Blank Shot: Do I add the feat's extra damage to the splash damage from a splash weapon?
No, the extra damage from Point Blank Shot only applies to the target of a direct hit with a splash weapon (including direct hits from an alchemist's bomb).
Right, but there's 2 ways to interpret that FAQ:
1) Point Blank Shot increases a Bomb's minimum damage (and thus, its splash damage), but isn't added a second time. Mark Seifter called it "double dipping".
2) Even though Point Blank Shot increases a Bomb's minimum damage, this increase is not factored into a Bomb's splash damage.
And, to further complicate things, even if #2 is the correct interpretation, it may not prevent other increases to Bomb damage from carrying over to the splash.