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Am I reading the entry right in the equipment section that only those with Trip-specified weapons (am not talking about monsters etc.) are capable of even attempting a Trip maneuver? And if I'm not reading it right, then what is the purpose of having that quality on a weapon?
You don't need a weapon with the trip quality to make a trip attempt - you can use any part of your body, really.
The advantage of a trip weapon is that, if you fail your combat maneuver check by 10 or more, you can drop your weapon instead of being tripped in return. It's generally easier to deal with dropping a weapon than falling prone, though circumstances vary - it's at least nice to have the choice.
Am I reading the entry right in the equipment section that only those with Trip-specified weapons (am not talking about monsters etc.) are capable of even attempting a Trip maneuver? And if I'm not reading it right, then what is the purpose of having that quality on a weapon?
Anyone can attempt a trip without a weapon. If you fail by 10 or more, you get tripped in return.
Alternately, you can use a 'trip' weapon. If you do, then you get the bonus and can elect to drop the weapon in case of a bad roll.
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I have a trip question. When trying to stand up from prone, do you still have the +4 to hit from the prone condition when you provoke the opportunity attacks?
The rules state that opportunity attacks resolve themselves immediately after they are provoked. My group has been saying that you don't have prone condition when you're trying to stand up, if only because it makes getting tripped a game over scenario.
...you can use any part of your body, really.
But would you really want to go sticking your naughty bits in combat? *cringes*
When trying to stand up from prone, do you still have the +4 to hit from the prone condition when you provoke the opportunity attacks?
Yes, see the next answer for the explanation.
The rules state that opportunity attacks resolve themselves immediately after they are provoked. My group has been saying that you don't have prone condition when you're trying to stand up, if only because it makes getting tripped a game over scenario.
You DO have the prone condition when trying to stand up, BECAUSE... if you didn't you could be repeatedly tripped by the attacks of opportunity, which WOULD make trip a 'game over scenario'.
You have to be 'standing' to be tripped, being prone while attempting to stand PREVENTS 'trip-lock'.
We discovered this during 3.5E after about a year and a half of doing it the incorrect way with a 'Spiked Chain Whirlwind Trip Fighter'.
EDIT: Also, if you group prefers it the 'not prone' way you could just let them go with it, but it's a potential TPK when the DM decides to attack with trip monsters and no one can get off the ground. Much like tracer ammunition, it works both ways. ;)
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I have a trip question. When trying to stand up from prone, do you still have the +4 to hit from the prone condition when you provoke the opportunity attacks?
The rules state that opportunity attacks resolve themselves immediately after they are provoked. My group has been saying that you don't have prone condition when you're trying to stand up, if only because it makes getting tripped a game over scenario.
Daniel has the right of it. You can't trip someone with AoO while they attempting to stand. They still have the prone condition and cannot be tripped. They do however still suffer from the +4 bonus to hit for being prone.
I thought the reason for the "trip" ability being listed on the weapons chart was so indicate which weapons could be used to trip and which cannot.
All the weapons with the ability have obvious "curved/hooky" bits that would allow you to trip with them.
If you can attempt a trip with any weapon why have the ability listed?
I don't understand the "letting go" part of this either, why is it easier to let go of a halberd, than say, a club?
Surely the whole letting go bit is to do with the shape of the weapon, so if the hooky bit is hooked around a leg, the owner of that leg could pull it back to unbalance you.
Does this mean I can trip a monster with my blowgun?
I have a player that wants to trip with a net after it has been successfully thrown over someone’s head and entangled them. I think the CMB check would have a penalty because the net isn't listed as a trip weapon, but what you guys are saying is that I'm wrong here and I should allow tripping attempts with the net and even with Sap's??!!
The Trip combat maneuver can be performed unarmed or with a Trip weapon -- not with any other weapon.
When trying to stand up from prone, do you still have the +4 to hit from the prone condition when you provoke the opportunity attacks?Yes, see the next answer for the explanation.
The rules state that opportunity attacks resolve themselves immediately after they are provoked. My group has been saying that you don't have prone condition when you're trying to stand up, if only because it makes getting tripped a game over scenario.You DO have the prone condition when trying to stand up, BECAUSE... if you didn't you could be repeatedly tripped by the attacks of opportunity, which WOULD make trip a 'game over scenario'.
You have to be 'standing' to be tripped, being prone while attempting to stand PREVENTS 'trip-lock'.
We discovered this during 3.5E after about a year and a half of doing it the incorrect way with a 'Spiked Chain Whirlwind Trip Fighter'.
EDIT: Also, if you group prefers it the 'not prone' way you could just let them go with it, but it's a potential TPK when the DM decides to attack with trip monsters and no one can get off the ground. Much like tracer ammunition, it works both ways. ;)
Thats exactly right.
One common 'maneuver' in our group when somebody is prone and facing the -4 to AC penalty is to use a standard action to go into total defense to get an AC boost and then stand up as a move action and accept the AoO. The total defense will help offset the AC penalty both for the AoO and on the bad guys next round of attacks, meaning a better chance of remaining standing. (Total defense gives a dodge bonus to AC, so this bonus applies to CMD too.)
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I thought the reason for the "trip" ability being listed on the weapons chart was so indicate which weapons could be used to trip and which cannot.
All the weapons with the ability have obvious "curved/hooky" bits that would allow you to trip with them.
If you can attempt a trip with any weapon why have the ability listed?
I don't understand the "letting go" part of this either, why is it easier to let go of a halberd, than say, a club?
Surely the whole letting go bit is to do with the shape of the weapon, so if the hooky bit is hooked around a leg, the owner of that leg could pull it back to unbalance you.
Does this mean I can trip a monster with my blowgun?
Yeah this is the kind of thing that was tripping me up (no pun intended). But now I think I understand, thanks to the clarification here.
As I understand it (and if I’m wrong please correct me), you can do a trip maneuver while wielding any weapon: BUT you are doing the maneuver WITH YOUR BODY. So, if I have a greatsword and do a trip maneuver, I’m doing the maneuver NOT with the greatsword, but with my body. That means if I fail my check by more than 10, I go down.
The clarification as I see it here, is that if a weapon has the “TRIP” quality, I can choose INSTEAD to use a Trip maneuver WITH THE WEAPON. So, if I use my WHIP to do the trip maneuver, and I fail more than 10, INSTEAD of going down, I can just drop the whip and stay standing.
Is that the case?
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I thought the reason for the "trip" ability being listed on the weapons chart was so indicate which weapons could be used to trip and which cannot.
All the weapons with the ability have obvious "curved/hooky" bits that would allow you to trip with them.
If you can attempt a trip with any weapon why have the ability listed?
I don't understand the "letting go" part of this either, why is it easier to let go of a halberd, than say, a club?
Surely the whole letting go bit is to do with the shape of the weapon, so if the hooky bit is hooked around a leg, the owner of that leg could pull it back to unbalance you.
Does this mean I can trip a monster with my blowgun?
Yeah this is the kind of thing that was tripping me up (no pun intended). But now I think I understand, thanks to the clarification here.
As I understand it (and if I’m wrong please correct me), you can do a trip maneuver while wielding any weapon: BUT you are doing the maneuver WITH YOUR BODY. So, if I have a greatsword and do a trip maneuver, I’m doing the maneuver NOT with the greatsword, but with my body. That means if I fail my check by more than 10, I go down.
The clarification as I see it here, is that if a weapon has the “TRIP” quality, I can choose INSTEAD to use a Trip maneuver WITH THE WEAPON. So, if I use my WHIP to do the trip maneuver, and I fail more than 10, INSTEAD of going down, I can just drop the whip and stay standing.
Is that the case?
Yes, and you also get the associated attack bonuses to your CMB when tripping with a Trip weapon.
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A bit of necromancy rather than start a new thread.
So do I take it that Paizo dropped the 3.5 rule that tripping with a trip weapon didn't provoke an AoO?
In Pathfinder, the only benefits of using a trip weapon are:
- You can drop it to avoid going pronbe if you fail your trip by 10 or more
- Bonuses applied to using the weapon, e.g. Masterwork quality, Weapon Focus feat
Correct?
The reason I ask is that I started playing a Druid in PFS this past week and he has a Sickle that has the Trip quality.
So do I take it that Paizo dropped the 3.5 rule that tripping with a trip weapon didn't provoke an AoO?
Correct. Making an unimproved trip attempt will provoke.
the only benefits of using a trip weapon are:
- You can drop it to avoid going pronbe if you fail your trip by 10 or more
- Bonuses applied to using the weapon, e.g. Masterwork quality, Weapon Focus feat
Correct?
Correct.
Great explanation by Daniel Moyer above. Major *click* moment for me.
And with the other discussion, can't wait to have a gnoll patrol run into my party with a Guisarme. We shall learn the trip rules together. :)
The clarification as I see it here, is that if a weapon has the “TRIP” quality, I can choose INSTEAD to use a Trip maneuver WITH THE WEAPON. So, if I use my WHIP to do the trip maneuver, and I fail more than 10, INSTEAD of going down, I can just drop the whip and stay standing.
Is that the case?
Yep. And if you have a Weapon Cord, dropping the weapon means nothing more than losing the rest of your attacks (since you can't take a swift to pick it up in the middle of a full attack). I find the concept of using a cord to attach a whip to you kindof odd (one of my players does it for exactly this reason), but it does work.
And with reach they can't use their AoO if you aren't adjacent.
Pedantic, but I think what you mean is the target of the trip can't make the attack if the tripper is outside of their threatened area.
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Presumably if I attempt to perform a trip on a target who I have cover from (and thus who likely has cover from me as well) the target doesn't get the AoO, right?
So if my druid attacks a foe around a corner he can attempt to Trip without provoking (but suffering a +4 difficulty for the target's cover).
Presumably if I attempt to perform a trip on a target who I have cover from (and thus who likely has cover from me as well) the target doesn't get the AoO, right?
So if my druid attacks a foe around a corner he can attempt to Trip without provoking (but suffering a +4 difficulty for the target's cover).
That's how I'd play it. They couldn't take the attack of opportunity around a hard corner, even though your action would still be provoking one.
The Core Rule explanation of Trip does not include a stipulation that the defender must be standing. Only that oozes, creatures without legs, flying creatures cannot be tripped. Also, Prone does not say you cannot be tripped. Obviously, it just wouldn't do much since the defender is already down.
In 3.5E, Trip was an attack vs AC, so keeping someone down would be easy. Too easy, you're arguing(but kicking someone over while they're standing up would be easier than doing it while they're already standing). Trip is now not vs AC, it's vs CMD. Being prone does not reduce your CMD, so there is no reason that this would become a "game over scenario" since it's no easier to trip someone standing up than it was to trip them the first time. You'd be wasting an easy damage attack to make a trip attack. Attacking as someone stands up then tripping on your turn is no different than keeping them down with the attack of op. and then attacking on your initiative.
Tripping someone as they attempt to stand makes perfect physical sense. If you can direct me to the rules you're interpreting from to say you can't trip someone as they stand up, I'd love to have a look.
Besides, you can always make a second move action to stand up after you've been tripped with the AoO from standing the first time. One person cannot keep you down unless they have combat reflexes and 14 Dex AND can make both of the trip attempts.
It is in the FAQ, which I recommend anyone who has a rules question reads as it is helpful in clarifying many issues.
Combat
When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?
No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up.
—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10
I thought the reason for the "trip" ability being listed on the weapons chart was so indicate which weapons could be used to trip and which cannot.
All the weapons with the ability have obvious "curved/hooky" bits that would allow you to trip with them.
If you can attempt a trip with any weapon why have the ability listed?
I don't understand the "letting go" part of this either, why is it easier to let go of a halberd, than say, a club?
Surely the whole letting go bit is to do with the shape of the weapon, so if the hooky bit is hooked around a leg, the owner of that leg could pull it back to unbalance you.
Does this mean I can trip a monster with my blowgun?
Yeah this is the kind of thing that was tripping me up (no pun intended). But now I think I understand, thanks to the clarification here.
As I understand it (and if I’m wrong please correct me), you can do a trip maneuver while wielding any weapon: BUT you are doing the maneuver WITH YOUR BODY. So, if I have a greatsword and do a trip maneuver, I’m doing the maneuver NOT with the greatsword, but with my body. That means if I fail my check by more than 10, I go down.
The clarification as I see it here, is that if a weapon has the “TRIP” quality, I can choose INSTEAD to use a Trip maneuver WITH THE WEAPON. So, if I use my WHIP to do the trip maneuver, and I fail more than 10, INSTEAD of going down, I can just drop the whip and stay standing.
Is that the case?
That is what makes sense to me, based on experience with 3.5e, but I keep seeing people saying you can trip with any weapon (not using your body to attempt a trip while wielding any weapon), and the rules are unclear they way they just say "You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack." Hell, they don't even make it clear that you still need to make a touch attack before the trip attempt. It's very frustrating.