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Yeah, but you also have the issue of how it increases your effective level (or similar, since that concept isn't in Pathfinder as such). And is the party evil? The process of lichdom is supposed to be unspeakably evil - sacrificing kiddies, that sort of thing - there's more to it than just laying out a bit of cash at the phylactery shop. And anyway, the process is supposed to be different for each lich, so I read somewhere, so you would have to discuss it with your DM anyway to work out the process - I don't think you can just stroll in to the next session and say, "Hi, by the way, I'm a lich now".
Why not just have an amulet of health (or the equivalent belt) and boost your CON that way? I mean, wizards are supposed to be fragile in physical combat. Maybe stop standing at the front? If you are fragile (low CON?) was that an active choice on point buy (not much sympathy) or foisted on you by the rolls (a little bit of sympathy, but not much)?
As a DM I would be acutely uncomfortable with having a lich in the party. In the end it will boil down to what he allows or doesn't, but your character wouldn't just be "less fragile" but actively overpowerful for his level. I would say no, if I was him (or her).
The clone spell is always a good alternative, although it is an 8th level spell.
Ok, I'm playing a wizard, and I'm afraid I'm rather on the fragile side, something I am scrambling to keep our GM from realizing and exploiting. So, I was thinking about taking the next step, and aspiring to Lichedom. I've got the spare cash, or, will by level 11, to make a phylactery, but I know that the GM is going to pitch a fit about it, and either make me give up my character by forcing me to convert to evil alignment, and then saying "no evil PCs" or by spamming me with witch hunters. I really like being Neutral.
I love how liches can heal themselves, and regrow a new body after a few days. It's perfect for a fragile caster. but is there anything from pathfinder, or from old school DnD that can replicate this sort of immortality without the stupid evil alignment change?
Massive problems with becoming a lich aside, if you have the cash to become a lich, you easily have the cash to pay for umpteen Raise Dead and Restoration spells - and a +6 Belt of Constitution. And you can hire a higher level caster to Clone you to avoid game-ending TPKs. Lichdom is the last resort of the terminally old or the main objective of nihilist necromancers.
Can you use Magic Jar and a host body? Like, a troll's? Or maybe risk a reincarnation? Maybe try astally projecting and using the spare astral body for adventuring and stuff? Just don't piss off the githyanki and their silver cord sundering swords.....or whatever the Pathfinder version of them is.
If age is your primary concern, then perhaps the simplest solution is to die, voluntarily.
Fine a druid willing to assist you, kill yourself, and have the druid reincarnate you.
From the SRD:
"The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand."
Not only does it take care of the Age issue, you might even end up with a form that has a CON bonus. Sure, you may have to start using Disguise Self on a regular basis...but if you were a lich you'd be in that situation anyway.
Do it now before you *do* succumb to old age, as reincarnate can't bring you back from that state.
@Helic, Raises and Restos are great, but again not if you just died of old age, and, someone has to drag your corpse back. I played a game where the we killed a lich, then the bastard rolled low on his res dice, and met us a few days later with our pants down. On that note, Clone takes months to grow, I don't want to be out of he campaign for that length of time. And what are the massive problems of being a lich?
Well, there's capital outlay for one. 120,000gp - and if your GM sticks to WBL guidelines, that's a 120,000gp hole in your finances. Second, the whole 'lengthy quest to become a lich thing' - the one where it's suggested you spend hundreds (with an 's') of thousands of gold, numerous dangerous adventures and many difficult skill checks over the course of months, years and decades. These are massive problems. Getting to lichdom is basically an entire campaign all by itself (one that probably won't be fun for the other PCs, assuming they approve of your goals). If you can't be out of the game for the months Clone takes, you don't have the time off to be running around looking for ways to become a lich either.
Third, the moment you become a lich, you get a whole new set of problems. Every good aligned dragon, adventurer, organization (etcetera) is basically your enemy. You will have to spend a lot of effort either staying off the radar of such, or spend a lot of resources beating them off (repeatedly). Then there's the need to keep a phylactery somewhere really, really safe, the need for 'replacement gear' for when you do respawn, and a general lack of minions willing to work for an undead horror.
Fourth, what's so bad about dying? I mean, in D&D you KNOW that your spirit will go to its afterlife, and if you worship a god, he'll collect you to the appropriate plane. You can PROVE this for yourself (Plane Shift and visit your dead relatives!). While the actual dying bit is probably unpleasant (and best avoided), death isn't as bad in a D&D setting as the 'real world' where we have no such convenient proofs.
Now, most people becoming liches are doing so just to avoid their just desserts (in Hell or the Abyss), where afterlife SUCKS and you know it. That's why they're willing to undergo the horrific transformation and all its accompanying problems, because death really is a worse alternative.
Your character is Neutral, and probably worships a god of magic. Super. Live a good long life, get raised from accidental deaths, and once your time runs out, die and go serve him for all of eternity in the Magic Library or whatnot. It probably beats shambling around your hidden fortress having conversations with yourself about how vampires make unreliable minions and what a bother it is getting even the simplest of spell components because your ghouls can't ransack a magic item shop worth a darn. Kind of like how Mumm-Ra ended up.
Oh, and yeah, becoming a lich is evil. Make that EVIL. Liches in previous editions subsisted on Larvae, which were basically the souls of evil men. You become a negative energy being that can heal itself by feeding on the life force of living things. The process is almost certainly going to involve doing really, really unholy things and bargaining with really, really unholy creatures.
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I agree with the Reincarnation idea.
I once had an epic druid (elf) with a half-elf cleric cohort. If it was ever to get to the point of middle age for the cohort, she'd be reincarnated. That may have to happen a couple times in order to not be a bugbear or a kobold.
Reincarnation = immortality.
The tricky thing is that you have to be reincarnated within one week of dying - or have a gentle repose on you. Only a piece of you at the time of your death is needed.
Also some things to consider before doing something crazy:
+6 Con belt
+5 book of health (insight bonus)
false life spell
Take leadership and get a cleric cohort.
Can you use Magic Jar and a host body? Like, a troll's? Or maybe risk a reincarnation? Maybe try astally projecting and using the spare astral body for adventuring and stuff? Just don't piss off the githyanki and their silver cord sundering swords.....or whatever the Pathfinder version of them is.how does one get around the 1hour/level duration on magic jar?
I would think it was obvious. You cast the spell again, thereby extending the duration of the effect.
eh magic jar seems to have a ton of holes in it, as does the whole "Just cast it again" thing as casting it again sends your soul to the gem, and pretty sure ya have to be in your body to do so.
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I would think it was obvious. You cast the spell again, thereby extending the duration of the effect.Can you use Magic Jar and a host body? Like, a troll's? Or maybe risk a reincarnation? Maybe try astally projecting and using the spare astral body for adventuring and stuff? Just don't piss off the githyanki and their silver cord sundering swords.....or whatever the Pathfinder version of them is.how does one get around the 1hour/level duration on magic jar?
Only because you taking the ruling that casting the same spell GENERALLY extends the duration instead of resetting it and then applying to ALL spells...which is not what generally means. In the case of magic jar, there is an effect OTHER then just the duration of the spell so your soul gets shunted back into the gem and the target can make a new save.
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Well, I definitely approve of the "let your character die and make a new one" approach. Please consider it. But if you have considered it, and you still don't want to, then by all means consider the following:
1) Being a good/neutral lich is probably a bad idea, even if you can manage it and the GM allows it (I would never allow a good lich, but a neutral one would be allowed). And it'll be a pain for your GM.
2) Vampirism is another route, but it's also a huge pain for your GM. Not to mention that you'll probably turn evil and start trying to eat/drink your fellow party members.
3) False Life is a relatively low-level and oft-overlooked spell that at your level should grant 1d10+10 temporary HP for basically the whole day. With each casting. If you're not using those 2nd-level spells for much else... why not? You could possibly double your hit points with a few castings.
4) If old age is a problem, reincarnate is your best way around it. Otherwise, clone is your best bet. Think about it:
- If you die while the clone is growing, you are still guaranteed a chance to come back. You just have to wait a few months at most.
- If you don't die, a few gentle repose spells, applied liberally, will keep it ever from rotting and you'll have a fine contingency. If you have the Extend Spell feat, you can go for weeks without casting it.
- There's almost no paperwork on the GM's part. Making the GM's job easy means he's more likely to go along with it, and less likely to block your way.
- It's a ton cheaper than becoming a lich, and it won't make you an automatic target for paladins everywhere, nor will it dramatically alter the kind of game that the GM has to run.
Seems like you and the GM are playing AGAINST each other?
if that's the case, no amount of clever thinking is going to solve your problem...
GRU
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I'm thinking there is bigger issues. When people go off on things like WBL is just a guide line...well yeah it is. But when you blow that out of the waters, all the other stuff that is based on that guideline gets wacked. Bessides which, you can't make money by making stuff. The crafting rules take WAY too long to make any decent money and the magic crafting rule lets you make stuff for half price...and SELL it for half price. Unless you set up a magic shop...in which case congrats, you made it, you retired and opened a shop...roll up a new character please.
And if your character is afraid of death, then he should stop adventuring and set up a magic shop.
Become a Green Star Adept from Complete Arcane.
wealth by level is a suggestion, nothing more, and if players are intelligent, left in the dust long hence. It is far from a rule. On current projections, I should be sitting on several hundred thousand GP by level 11. Just by playing a little game called "Make Stuff". It's not exploiting the system, it's just a matter of using your brain and not resorting to thuggery to get money.
Yes, you'll notice I used the term "If your GM applies WBL", and plenty of intelligent groups use it, please try not to be too condescending. As for the game of "Make Stuff", Cold Napalm has pointed out why it doesn't work by RAW, and that's not even counting things like the time spent acquiring the materials to "Make Stuff", unless you're handwaving that. Granted D&D's economics are garbage, but if your group has fixed them without addressing the supply/demand side of things, you haven't improved anything.(eg. Wizards with Fabricate + Craft Skills would dominate any economy - the middle class would basically go away). Players are supposed to be making their money by adventuring, not get-rich-quick schemes (that usually fall apart under any kind of logic - if they would have worked, why isn't someone else already in that market?).
ok, so how about Good Lichs, those have been around since 2nd ed at least, and there were write-ups in 3.0 (Monsters of Faerun) and 3.5 (Libris Necris)
A lot of that was symptomatic of the 'good drow' phase of D&D; people saw how much power a certain race/template had and clamored for a 'good' version to be available. I guess that's a matter of taste, but Pathfinder has pretty much come down on the "Negative Energy Being = EVIL" side of things.
So I can see that Lichdom is perhaps a bad idea, are there any other templates that might work?
D&D doesn't LIKE handing out immortality. Probably for good reason, because if you can't be killed then danger is just an inconvenience (anything other than a TPK is already an inconvenience). The first good way of avoiding TPKs is to have a cleric/druid Cohort who can raise you from the dead - scrolls of True Resurrection aren't cheap, but if money's not a problem, it's not a problem. He hangs out at your base, running things while you're gone, and periodically divines your dead/alive state. If you're dead, bam, True Resurrection, you're back in action. Druids and Reincarnate are a little harder to manage this way, as they need a chunk of your corpse. Wizards and Clone work automatically (get a wondrous item that casts Gentle Repose on its contents - preferably someplace resistant to scrying) but has the 2d4 month warm-up flaw.
Really, if money isn't an issue, you basically can't be TPK'd except by someone dedicated to wiping you from existence. At that point your GM really is out to get you, so he'd never let you become a lich anyways.
Clerics can make you undead in a variety of flavors courtesy of create undead & create greater undead. Not all of these carry an Intelligence penalty. If you are willing to try it on your own accord, acquiring scrolls of those spells that are within UMD range is the best way to become undead. "Hang" one of these in a contingency that triggers when you are killed. Instant mummification, welcome back, baby! While not almost-guaranteed to come back from destruction as a lich is, this is a viable route at 11th+ level.
Stuffing yourself into a lifespark golem is an option.
Do it now before you *do* succumb to old age, as reincarnate can't bring you back from that state.
The spell can bring back a creature that has died of old age.
So Reincarnate is the easiest and most "goodest" route to immortality, as long as you don't mind being a troglodyte or something. Plus, it never affects your mental stats. Plus, when you are a high level wizard, if you don't like your body, you can wish yourself back to your original form.
When I was DMing AD&D, I had this messed up item called the Ring of Reincarnation. The corpse disintegrates and reforms as the new young body. It was the ultimate recycling. The ring reshaped to fit the dire badger body but the rest of the items fell away. I'm thinking it has to be made of petrified wood.
If that doesn't do it for you, go to Homebrewed and check out The Cleaves. Godhood has to be earned, but that's what the game is about.
all right, as much as I may grumble about it, I thank you all for your help, and declare this....
/thread
As if you had that power. Only the great and powerful Teter or his glorious sanctioned minion can end a thread.
All hail the great and powerful Post Monster General!
SAD -- Single Ability Dependent . Like a wizard who fuels all his major class abilities on Intelligence.
As opposed to MAD -- Multiple Ability Dependent Like a monk, who wants high Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom.
I just read the Reincarnate spell.
A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be returned to life by this spell. Also 100% is GMs choice. The GM can mess with you by turning your character into a mermaid. That s0cks. You should go after godhood.
If that doesn't do it for you, go to Homebrewed and check out The Cleaves. Godhood has to be earned, but that's what the game is about.
The Cleaves is a group designed space dungeon. As soon as their are 100 entries for each 'deck' it will be playable. Also I added Das Book to special discoveries. If you can't beat Death, join em.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/houseRules
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In Mongoose Publishing's Encyclopedia Arcane: Necromancy there was a spell (3rd level called Immortality I think) that prevented you from aging for one day per casting. Although useless if you keep casting it every day due to the use of a spell slot you can always put it into a 1/day magic item. That was my plan in a game I was playing, but we never got that far. The material component can be seen as evil (blood from a person half your age or younger), but no one ever says you have to take it by force, and it's not a lethal amount. To quote a webcomic character "you'd be amazed what orphans will do for a hug and a cookie."
But as for lichdom, yeah, that's hardcore evil stuff, at least the standard lich. There were good lich-like creatures in Eberron (Deathless) that were animated by positive energy, but they're elf exclusive and there was no listed way to become one.