Hi, I'm looking for advice on how to talk to an insecure female player of mine. I know how to talk to male players just fine (both the brazen and the cowardly), but I've gotten feedback in the past that I don't "speak girl" very well. So I am soliciting advice from the females on this board as to how to communicate with one of my players. Frankly, if you're a dude: I'm going to ignore you on this thread, sorry.
Background: I, and everyone else save her, all work for big-name IT companies. She works in a drug store. We try to "keep it real" or otherwise treat her as "one of us" as much as we can, but at the end of the day, we're on very different socio-economic levels, and she feels it.
We're all also long in the tooth when it comes to RPGs. Most of the players are new to "Pathfinder" specifically, but they all know their way around dice, tactics, and talking in character. She does not. She tries. She tries hard: her character sheet is color colored: she put a red box around her STR mod, then shaded red everyone the STR stat was used on the sheet (and orange for DEX, etc). But at the end of the day, when I say "you get the sensation you're being following: roll Perception" it takes her at least 20 long seconds to find her d20, find her character sheet, find the skill, roll it, and add it up.
Situation: Her character died last session. This was her 2nd character death. No-one else has died yet in this campaign. It was her fault: taking AoOs by using her bow in melee, not stepping out of flank, etc, etc. I warn her before she acts and give her the oppurtunity to take her action back ("doing that will cause 3 AoOs, are you sure?") and she goes ahead with it anyway. Might have something to do with her last game was Exalted under a "kiddie-gloves" GM. (Yes, I've given my players the "this game is deadly" speech many a time, including right before the quest that she died on.)
When her character finally died, she took it pretty hard. She sent me an emotional email explaining how disappointed she was, and lamented the fact that she rolled poorly. Now here's the problem: she always uses the dice as an excuse. She believes all this is happening to her because of bad luck, and that the other players just roll really well.
I believe she can learn. I do. But only if she realizes that she has to learn. If she continues to believe that she's not at fault, she will just continue to make glass cannons, and then walk into the middle of melee and get ground up by the meatgrinder.
I'm struggling to find a way to confront her on this without her coming away from the email/talk with "I just suck and hate myself." I've tried talking to her before and it has literally ended in tears. She's very insecure.
So please, women of the Paizo boards, how can I tell her that it's her fault, and not completely crush her spirit at the same time? I need your finesse.
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Well, I hope you don't ignore my post just because I'm a "dude". I have had the same experience as you when I got my wife interested in rpgs back when 3.0 came out. She was making much of the same mistakes, and I couldn't keep holding her hand without the party getting suspicious. So I let her character die by her own mistakes, and got the same responce as the one you mentioned. Finally I sat her down and asked her what she wanted out of the game, and what she found apealing for a character. It turns out that she was just playing the wrong class. So I sat down and explained how if we made a different character that would appeal to the style of play she wanted, that she would have more fun. She didn't want to play as the class I suggested, but once she gave it a shot she had a lot more fun and has learned so much about roll playing now that she hasn't died since. Anyways, I hope this helps you out and is not ignored.
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If you really want advice, seems like a bad idea to state you will ignore male responses. Sad but true, we are the majority in this hobby. It comes across as fishing for female response under the guise of being inclusive. (while actually being exclusive)
That being said I am a male gamer so ignore this if you want.
I have gamed with 6 to 8 different female gamers through the years, all with different levels of exposure to RPG’s. I have gamed with dozens of male gamers, all with different levels of exposure to RPG’s. Gender, socioeconomic status, race, etc have no bearing on the situation. A noob is a noob (we were all one once) and a socially awkward person is a socially awkward person. (most of us were one once).
IMO the best thing is let your other players help. Talk to them outside of game about your problem. Because you are the GM she may view you as an authority figure and view the other players as peers. It is always easier to take suggestions from peers. Over time she will most likely emulate what her peers are doing anyway. Have them discuss team tactics so everyone sees their role and she is not singled out. This will lead to better party cohesion anyway and that is always a good thing.
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She has the organization down, but she fumbles with the execution? So she's new to the game.
Try this: tell her that every decision she makes during character creation/development is a mechanical decision which will inevitably help or hinder her with certain in-game actions (it seems she already knows this, but work with me here); then explain that having a positive modifier in any stat does not constitute a guaranteed success (id est: with a +5 modifier you can still roll a minimum 6 on any test, enough to fail most simple challenges by 4), and that dice are fickle creatures - if she continues to lament her dice, recommend she purchase a set of GameScience dice, which are about as precisely random as random can get (and guaranteed to be spirit/luck/curse-free, or your money considerably wasted.
Point out the "Playing the Game" chapter (specifically chapters 7 and 8 in the core) and explain carefully what she did wrong, and show her how she can avoid those same mistakes with her next character, I'm sure she scraped her knees when learning to ride a bike, a PC death due to misusing/ignoring Combat Actions isn't all that different - except that it hurts a lot less, and your mom doesn't ravage your tender skin with an ample dosage of Hydrogen Peroxide.
Ultimately: I feel the most important thing to stress is that Pathfinder is, above all else, just a game. Pathfinder is not serious business. I regularly bring a six pack of beer to my every-other Friday game, another friend brings a six pack to our every Wednesday game; its all about sitting back and playing cops and robbers, acting like you did when you were a kid and nobody was watching, just with a little more structure and organization; I don't know the girl, so I don't know how well telling her to relax would work, but I would just tell her to take her time and relax; get familiar with the character she's made and the rules that apply to it; show up and have a good time.
Sorry for the long post but here is my input as a female gamer.
I have to say some of the stuff the previous posters say has merit. I played back in high school and didn't play again 'til I was around 30. I almost gave up because of the same kind of thing, but nobody in my group recognized this. I met a different person who took the time to make sure I was gettin all of my modifiers added in, and wow I started getting better totals. Not necessarily rolling better. If she struggles w/ knowing which dice is which take a 3x5 card make labeled boxes for each one and have her keep them on it.
Now teaching tactics is a lot tougher. I game with 6 other guys and the GM. It's sad I know but a lot of the guys don't use tactics (or don't know how & don't want to learn). I'm not sure which, but let the party try to teach her.
If she is taking that many AoO's then refer her to the section on AoO's and have her read it on her own, but also tell her if she has any questions to let you know. I don't know about having her read chapters 7 & 8 entirely it is a lot to take in if you are clueless.
I think females (generally speaking) get more attached to characters then males do. I loathe it when one of my characters dies. Also keep in mind making characters for her is probably a REAL CHORE. I've been back to playing for 4 years or so and character creation is still the thing I hate the most. That said once her character is made maybe reference some of the most important rules that pertain to just that character.
Digital Sith has a good point of trying to find out what she wants out of the game and what kind of class may fit her play style the best.
Yarb makes a good point in letting the rest of the group talk about the tactics topic. On this I would try and ask other than bad rolls is there anything else you think contributed to the problems you had when your character died. If she has question of course anser them first. Then I would add trying to explain to her what went wrong specifically with her character death and how it can be avoided in the future.
And of course Sheboygen it is just a game. It can be hard to remember that when you have to make a new character and it takes your 6-10 hours. Really I'm not joking about this. It can still take me 4-6 to make a new character and a lot longer if it is higher level or a class I haven't played before.
I'm not a girl, but I am a professional educator with years of experience.
I warn her before she acts and give her the oppurtunity to take her action back ("doing that will cause 3 AoOs, are you sure?") and she goes ahead with it anyway.
She doesn't NEED a warning. She needs alternatives. She doesn't KNOW how to avoid AOs. Asking her if she's sure doesn't help, because she STILL doesn't know how to fix it, it just makes her feel bad about the decision she made. She can't admit that she's having trouble, because she's trying to be one of the guys, and they never have trouble.
Solution: Recognize that she's new, don't ignore it. And then build her a mechanic to help her up to speed. Let her interrupt play three times of session to call a 'time-out', and ask a question. Either a how question "how do I get my character to safety when the monster has reach?" or a why question for one of the other players "why did you move there? Why didn't you charge in?...
Chances are, she'll be grateful. The other players will be glad she is improving, and I doubt she'll ever use all three questions in one night.
This really isn't a gender issue; as pointed out at least once above, has more to do with her being new to the game than with her second X chromosome.
Were I in your position, I would first empathize - we've all had beloved characters die, and it sucks.
And that's the next point to make: that these things happen, especially when you're new to the game. D&D is ultimately a game about choices, and those choices are complicated and almost always have heavy consequences. Therein lies the fun. When it comes to your turn, knowing and remembering all the different options at your disposal is difficult; even veteran players forget the occasional bonus here or ability there. But the more you play, the easier it is to remember all the weird little rules and strategies that transform a newcomer into a veteran.
Once that's out there, talk about the future: If there is a chance that she can be brought back to life (even if you have to fudge things a little, if you're okay with that, anyway), then discuss that option. I think this would be ideal, as it saves her time trying to get to know a new character sheet (and possibly new class abilities, etc). It's probably best that she master one character/class first, before branching out to others.
If not, get her thinking about a new character. We all mourn our fallen characters, but we can't dwell on them forever. There are so many new characters to play, new stories to tell. If you can get her working on a new concept, she might brighten up a little.
Anyway, that's my advice. Best of luck to both of you!
This really isn't a gender issue; as pointed out at least once above, has more to do with her being new to the game than with her second X chromosome.
Were I in your position, I would first empathize - we've all had beloved characters die, and it sucks.
And that's the next point to make: that these things happen, especially when you're new to the game. D&D is ultimately a game about choices, and those choices are complicated and almost always have heavy consequences. Therein lies the fun. When it comes to your turn, knowing and remembering all the different options at your disposal is difficult; even veteran players forget the occasional bonus here or ability there. But the more you play, the easier it is to remember all the weird little rules and strategies that transform a newcomer into a veteran.
Once that's out there, talk about the future: If there is a chance that she can be brought back to life (even if you have to fudge things a little, if you're okay with that, anyway), then discuss that option. I think this would be ideal, as it saves her time trying to get to know a new character sheet (and possibly new class abilities, etc). It's probably best that she master one character/class first, before branching out to others.
If not, get her thinking about a new character. We all mourn our fallen characters, but we can't dwell on them forever. There are so many new characters to play, new stories to tell. If you can get her working on a new concept, she might brighten up a little.
Anyway, that's my advice. Best of luck to both of you!
+1 I really like that description of the game.
I'm not a girl, but I am a professional educator with years of experience.
She doesn't NEED a warning. She needs alternatives. She doesn't KNOW how to avoid AOs. Asking her if she's sure doesn't help, because she STILL doesn't know how to fix it, it just makes her feel bad about the decision she made. She can't admit that she's having trouble, because she's trying to be one of the guys, and they never have trouble.
Solution: Recognize that she's new, don't ignore it. And then build her a mechanic to help her up to speed. Let her interrupt play three times of session to call a 'time-out', and ask a question. Either a how question "how do I get my character to safety when the monster has reach?" or a why question for one of the other players "why did you move there? Why didn't you charge in?....
I am a girl, and I totally agree. I have no trouble going, "argh, what should I do?" but all the games I play in are full of people telling each other what to do constantly, and we've all been playing for years. Even if you veterans just give her some options, like, "You could try to tumble away and shoot your bow, or withdraw this round and full attack next round, or just five foot back and shoot but then they could step when it's their turn." Try not to make it about her being some poor ignorant female drug store worker who speaks "girl" instead of English, though. (Is "girl" like Thieves' Cant?)
It sounds to me like although she's trying to be organized, she doesn't yet know what is important. Highlighting EVERYTHING on your charsheet looks pretty but is ultimately ineffective because nothing stands out. Start her out fresh, black and white. Assuming that you're using the standard PF charsheet, highlight Perception (which is buried in a long column), Init, AC, and maybe saves. POSSIBLY, the to hit and damage of her main weapon, if she swings it a lot. As far as locating dice: declutter. Keep ONLY the dice she actually needs for her character on the table. Chances are, she doesn't need a d12, and d20/d12 is the hardest to tell at a glance, and maybe she can do without the percentile dice if she's getting them confused with her d8s, but just having fewer dice out can help. (This also cuts down on "Whose die is this? I guess it's mine now.") It might help a lot to lend her a distinctively colored d20 -- if her dice are all dark green, lend her an orange one, for example.
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Hi, I'm looking for advice on how to talk to an insecure female player of mine. I know how to talk to male players just fine (both the brazen and the cowardly), but I've gotten feedback in the past that I don't "speak girl" very well. So I am soliciting advice from the females on this board as to how to communicate with one of my players. Frankly, if you're a dude: I'm going to ignore you on this thread, sorry.
Maybe I've got this all wrong but perhaps part of the problem is that her GM has got sucked into the 'men are from mars, women are from venus' cliches?
Also, wealth, does this matter when your playing a game of imagination? In games she might be the wealthiest member of the group. As long as she can get to the game on time and has a set of dice she's golden.
She is inexperienced, everything else is a distraction from your efforts to help her.
After that, everything rkraus2 and threemilechild said is golden.
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Wealth isn't an issue when you are playing or at least it shouldn't be. Last weekend I was in a game run by a friend who is unfortunately currently unemployed. This weekend coming I will be playing in a game with a guy who owns his own accountancy firm and drives a very tasty Jaguar.
Difference in game? Well one tends to play big hefty warriors and the other tends to play mage type characters... And that's about it.
Personal wealth is only an issue if you make it an issue.
I was recently in a similar situation when a friend of a friend joined our Kingmaker group. She had no table top RPG experiences and is a shy person to begin with. After talking with her I found one of the biggest problems was she was intimidated by the rules but embarrassed to ask anyone for help. I got the Pathfinder SORD and printed it out for her, as a quick reference. It has helped a lot and she's slowly built more confidence in her knowledge of the system. Just something to consider...
Frankly, if you're a dude: I'm going to ignore you on this thread, sorry.
With that mindset I guess you dont "speak people" well. Ya know, stereotyping and all.
It's not impossible that you framing this as a gender issue is what makes this girl uncomfortable.
Wealth isn't an issue when you are playing or at least it shouldn't be. Last weekend I was in a game run by a friend who is unfortunately currently unemployed. This weekend coming I will be playing in a game with a guy who owns his own accountancy firm and drives a very tasty Jaguar.
Difference in game? Well one tends to play big hefty warriors and the other tends to play mage type characters... And that's about it.
Personal wealth is only an issue if you make it an issue.
It may not be a question of wealth, but of social class. You've got IT people, pretty much white collar professionals, and a drug store employee, working class retail. The OP didn't say what she does there but if he mentions it as a difference, I can bet she's not one of the pharmacists.
What does this mean? I'm not in her head, but she may feel under-educated, under-experienced, with less sophisticated interests and that could put her on the psychological defensive.
Oh look! I have boobies. I am apparently qualified!
Hi, I'm looking for advice on how to talk to an insecure female player of mine. I know how to talk to male players just fine (both the brazen and the cowardly), but I've gotten feedback in the past that I don't "speak girl" very well. So I am soliciting advice from the females on this board as to how to communicate with one of my players.
It's not impossible that you framing this as a gender issue is what makes this girl uncomfortable.
THIS, first of all.
Without gender in the equation, this sounds very much like a "new player" issue that happens to many newbies, regardless of the bits and pieces between their legs.
You may not be wearing the kid-gloves as a GM, so don't walk on eggshells because she has different genitals than you do. If you treat her "specially" because she's a girl in the way you talk to her, she will also assume the way you treat her in game is because she's a girl, and if she's paranoid about how you treat her in regards to her gender, she may eventually assume you're killing her off on purpose because you can't deal with girls, and the real issue will never, ever be dealt with. You're not dating her, you're her GM. Remember that.
If she were a guy, how would you handle this?
Do that thing. Remain polite. When she speaks, listen to her and do not talk until she is done. Ask and expect her to do the same. Have her present her expectations and you present yours and see where you can find commonalities and negotiate differences. This isn't "speaking girl," this is called "effective conflict resolution" (I've taken a few classes, and I think that qualifies me more than the fact that I wear a bra).
Totally aside from gender, your problem is compounded by the fact that her only other RPG experience is with Exalted, which REWARDS RISKY BEHAVIOR. In Exalted, if you do great descriptive stunts, you get bonus dice and XP. She may honestly not be understanding why you're "punishing" her for "stunts" rather than rewarding her.
You need to sit down and explain AGAIN that Pathfinder is not Exalted. It rewards tactical, cooperative play, not solo stunts. And I would also focus on rewards when she plays well--if she works really well with the group, throw in an item of treasure particularly useful to her character or give her a bonus to an appropriate die roll. Do the same with your other players, of course. This should not be a "special treatment" thing, or that opens a whole other can of worms.
Following along with this, if the players are willing, I suggest running an in-character training session--have the party set up a mock combat to practice combat tactics together, in character. Make it as much a roleplay experience as it is a combat experience. Emphasize the cooperative play--this is the one place where I will bring in gender stereotyping. While women can often be extremely competitive (fiercely so) typically the imaginative play they enjoy most involves cooperation and imagination (the CAVEAT here is not to confuse "typically" with "always" so be prepared that this may not work, but is worth a try). RPGs have these things by the score, so emphasize these things and help her realize that part of what's fun in Pathfinder combat isn't the crazy risks, but the working together with the party to set up a cool battlefield.
Finally, it looks like some of the other differences you have in your group aren't gender related but, as you mentioned, socio-economic related. If you find that she's not gelling with the group generally, do your best to keep conversations on topics about stuff everybody can enjoy. (I'm a secretary in a group of IT workers myself, and even though I like computers, nothing makes my eyes glaze over faster than people b!@!#ing about servers breaking down and managers being stupid. But then, I also hate talking about work in general. I do that 40 hours a week, I'd rather talk about something actually fun when I'm with my friends, like gaming or movies.)
And understand that in the end, maybe your style is not her style. Not because she's a girl or works retail, but because she wants something more dynamic and cinematic and you want gritty realism. If it continues to go poorly, talk it out with her and maybe help her find another gaming group. Pathfinder isn't for everyone, and some folks gel with other RPGs more.
I was going to make some of the same points as LtlBtyRam and DeathQuaker, particularly the bits about how many (but not all) female gamers are more interested in their characters than the guys. That is, they often are focused primarily in the story of their PC over the combat, world events, team organization, or even the monsters and villains.
I've had the pleasure of having at least one (often two) females in every game I've run, from junior high age to mid-thirties, and this has been true in my experience.
With that in mind, I suggest that she may be less inclined to grasp (or care about) the tactical nature of a battle, give less attention to the details of strategies, thriving instead on player interaction, storyline, and character development.
Just something to think about...on top of all the other excellent advice already given.
It's not impossible that you framing this as a gender issue is what makes this girl uncomfortable.
+1
Gender is irrelevant with regard to how to handle problematic players (no matter what the issue), IMO.
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Her character died last session. This was her 2nd character death. No-one else has died yet in this campaign. It was her fault: taking AoOs by using her bow in melee, not stepping out of flank, etc, etc. I warn her before she acts and give her the oppurtunity to take her action back ("doing that will cause 3 AoOs, are you sure?") and she goes ahead with it anyway.
I have personally run into this mostly with new players, as opposed to players of a particular gender. The two players I have gamed with that never outgrew this syndrome were both men, actually.
Those that never outgrow this attitude are essentially unwilling to listen, or at least learn from, the others in their group - for whatever reason. You either accept that they will consistently make poor choices - and I usually make sure I don't have characters forced to risk their life to save party members from their own stupidity - or get very frustrated with them.
New players don't have to fall into this sad category - they can be helped.
What I do as a DM and fellow player and general default rules lawyer at the table is not just say "That will have a bad consequence...are you sure you want to do it?", but actually offer suggestions (as has been so eloquently stated above) and explain the consequences of all her possible actions. I find that only saying "That's a bad idea," causes the other person to be defensive or panic, unsure of their options.
"Hm, you could do that, but here, see these guys? When you shoot your bow, they all get a free swing at you, because you have to assume a shooting stance - you're distracted by the act of aiming that guy overf there and they'll take advantage of that. What you could do is take a 5 foot step back here. You could then shoot all you wanted, but see, this guy can still hit you. Also, then all these guys could just take a 5' step next round and pound on you. You could withdraw - you're concentrating very hard on moving out of melee, so that first step doesn't provoke any attacks - but that one guy can still get a hit as you move from your new square out. You can drop your bow and pull out your short sword and hit one of these guys...that way they're not getting extra attacks on you. But if you have to run, you might lose your bow..."
It can be a little tedious going through her options. As as DM you have a lot to worry about yourself. Maybe a helpful knowledgable player is willing to go over these things with her. Maybe everyone is willing to go through these things - each sticking to their own area of expertise.
In character training sessions with blunted weapons might be good - as she gets hit she takes nonlethal damage until she's unconcious, but the team can explain her options as she tries to navigate the tactics of the situation.
These options will slow combat down a bit. It's up to you as the DM and the other players to make it easy for her to ask questions. Even just a bit of concious effort to make the table a question friendly place can help. If you have any doubt about a rule, ask the table the question instead of looking it up yourself or making a quick ruling. "The bandit, seeing his friend cut down, pulls his shield off his back and...hey, guys, is it a move action to ready a shield? Or a standard action? Anyone know?" Ask the guys to try to make it a little more question friendly by asking and answering questions - then she's not the ONLY person without a full encyclopedic knowlege of the rules system.
Going over with her exactly what she wants her character to be and how she wants to play is valuable too. When I have an absolutely new player in a system, I spend a session with them helping them create their character. I ask them things like "How do you want to fight? What does your character like? Do you want to do magic?" I steer new players toward classes that are easier to PLAY (though if they insist they want to be a wizard, I will allow it - after a warning it can have a steep learning curve). The issue with easy to PLAY characters is they're actually usually harder to build. Characters are easier to play when they have fewer options. This means the person creating the character has to understand which options they're choosing for their more limited character are good, and which are bad. This is where some help at character creation comes in. Find out what the player wants to do, and think of the best mechanical way to do it.
::cough::
...sorry, got long winded, there.
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It can be a little tedious going through her options. As as DM you have a lot to worry about yourself. Maybe a helpful knowledgable player is willing to go over these things with her. Maybe everyone is willing to go through these things - each sticking to their own area of expertise.
+1
We are lucky enough to have two very veteran players in our game who are calm and know how to offer suggestions of different options, rather than telling a newbie what they should do. Whenever anyone new to RP or new to the 3.5/Pathfinder system comes to play, I pair them with a "mentor" and ask the veteran player to help them throughout if they need any assistance. I find that it is easier for new players to ask a single person for help or understanding of a concept rather than the entire table. Also, a few have "not wanted to bother the GM" with a question, so they never understood major parts of the game.
This system has worked well for our group for the last few years, regardless of gender, and I would say the number of men and women were about even.
I think a lot of good advice has been given out, and I really don't have much in the way to add, other than to agree strongly with the people who said talk to her like a person.
What I would like to point out though, is people who think gender differences and social class have no bearing on social situations, in my opinion, backed up by both anecdotes and science, have a poor understanding of humans in general.
No, men and women aren't some completely different species that have nothing to do with eachother in regards to emotion or thought...but nor do they handle things the same across the board. Women and men do think differently, and approach problems differently. You think there's perhaps a reason you can go to just about any table top warhammer tournament and see maybe a one percent showing of girls?
You will probably have to break down combat and tactics to her, and quite likely she will either take to it slowly, or not at all. If she takes to it slowly, then accept that, and continue to teach her. If it just doesn't work out, admit that it's not working and find something else. Maybe a different game, maybe just hang out with her on movie night. Sometimes people don't work out, through no fault of their own or the group.
Social class and wealth can have a very strong impact on a social event. As stated above, she might feel undereducated, less sophisticated, ect, ect. Other than playing in a neutral area, I don't have a lot of advice for handling this issue, as I've never delt with it personally.
Either way, good luck...and remember, don't think in black and white.
I want to thank everyone for their detailed feedback. I'm honestly blown away with the level of thought that's going in to these responses. (I've seen other "help with bad player" threads turn into rampant sexism and advocate hitting the woman until she wizens up, and I was specifically trying to avoid that with my "no men" disclaimer.) I was too broad in my exclusions. I want to thank the men that showed up anyways: sorry for short-changing you!
I think the feedback is gold, thank you.
Based on some of the things others are saying, I want to put in a little more background on the situation:
Why did I bring up the "socio-economic" crap? We're a big group of friends, too big for one group. So we meet up in one of the corporate buildings downtown once a week after work. We all gather in an unused coference room. People trickle in at different times (we alternate whose company we're playing at) and generally it's a social hour for the first hour or so. And when you've got a bunch of IT people in their work-building, I'll let you imagine what "social hour" looks like. For her sake, we try to streer the conversation away from work when we notice over 50% of us are on the topic, but it's hard. After we're done with social hour, we split into our respective groups. I'm currently running Kingmaker(Pathfinder) the other group is doing Shadowrun 4th E.
My group is the more "roleplayish" group. The Shadowrun group is all number-and-charts-and-spreadsheets and tactical stuff. My table spends more time doing backstory investigation, political intrigue, interpersonal interaction, etc, than we do on comabts. I'm guessing that's why I got mostly girls in my group. She's not the only girl: she's just the only girl that feels the odd one out; frankly she feels stupid and feels inferior. I'm not saying she actually is: but that's where her self-perception is at.
I've sat down with her a couple of times (1 on 1, at her apartment) and done mock combats. Her first character was a summons-focused, animal-companion-using, reach-weapon-weilding Druid. I told her that she had probably chosen the most complicated character build she could possibly come up with, and warned her sternly that this wasn't going to go well, but she was insistant that she could make it work. (This may have led the extreme color-coding on her sheets and her extensive bookmarking of her rulebook.) Anyway, we did a few of those sessions and she seemed to "get the hang of things", but those lessons seem to only apply when we're 1-on-1 and don't manifest at the group table.
She puts a lot of work into it. Her 2nd character was a ranger. (I let her keep the same animal companion from the first character as a way to preserve continuity.) She wrote out, by hand, every permutation of rapid shot, precise shot, favored enemy, with her bow, with her crossbow, etc, etc, in a huge chart. She has also realized the skill list is too small and hard to read, and has created a seperate sheet to keep track of the skills, layed out more nicely, with precalced every permutation of favored enemy/terrian and common penalties (armor check, weather, etc). It's boggling the amount of work she puts into this. Though between all these aids and her animal companion, it leads to a lot of clutter, and ironically, slows her down even more.
Before we were in our Pathfinder/Shadowrun breakdown, we were in a nWoD/Exalted breakdown. Same group of people and routine, just slightly different shuffle. So I got to see how the Exalted GM ran his game (as it was going on in the next room over): every turn that came up, he painstakingly detailed out every option that each character chould possibly take, including the percent chance of success of each. The character would then choose one off of the list (a round of combat was usually 45 minutes, and it took an entire evening to do just one combat). Honestly, it felt a little bit like Final Fantasy to me: picking off a list like that. When it came time to "pitch the new campaigns" I promised that I'd use the 6-second rule in combats. I have not held to that rule, but the general idea of "don't kibitz, just get it done" has been the culture at my table. All of the players have expressed that this is what they want (all were either in, or familiar with, the Exalted game). So I'm cautious about things that slow done the pace of combat, and how other players will react. I really like rkraus2's suggestion of "get 3 timeouts" - that sounds like a good comprimise that will satisfy all the players at the table.
Anyway, with all of this great advice, I want to know: how do I begin the conversation? All the advice in the world is no good if I can't begin the conversation and she just starts crying or gets completely depressed and then tunes me out. I don't want to hurt her any more than I already have: she's a friend, and a human deserving of dignity and respect. How can I preserve her dignity and implement these ideas? As Jess Door said, it's dangerous to single her out too much.
I remain perplexed, though encouraged by all the wonderful people on this forum.
Well, in kind, I'm surprised how much you seem to legitimately care about making this work - for her, and for everyone involved, really. A lot of GMs would just kick her out, or worse yet, passively-aggressively let her linger in the group, not having the heart to settle the problem one way or the other.
I'm not sure the best way to start the conversation, as I'm a little foggy on where things are between you two right now. But in a general sense, I think you should tell her that you'd like to implement the 6-second rule, or at least work towards it. Tell her that you're telling everyone else this; it's an adjustment that every player will need to be prepared for.
However, you can start small. It doesn't have to be 6 seconds, it could start at 15 or something. If that becomes pretty routine, then lower the amount of time.
Really, you'll have to just compromise. A few seconds in a combat shouldn't mean the difference between a happy player and a crying player. It's just time. (I'm almost exclusively a play-by-post person, so I'm accustomed to fights that can take a week or more.) We game because it's fun, and if it stops being fun for someone at the table, compromises need to be made.
Also, as general advice, since you seem to be worried about singling her out: if/when you can't really avoid singling her out, just make it clear that it's because she's new. This makes it both not really her fault (you can't help being new at something), and also a temporary issue (so she can look forward to it going away as she gets more experienced).
I agree that her over-organization may be a problem. It sounds as though her charts and coded character sheets are becoming a bit of a crutch. If she seems open to suggestions, maybe have her try one session (or one encouter, or whatever you like) her way, using her charts and stuff, and then compare it to another session or encounter without her charts. Then see which method works best - and which shows the highest rate of learning and adaptation. Maybe if she has to think through all the rules and bonuses instead of just looking them up, she'll become more familiar with them. It's D&D immersion, in a way. ^__^
Again, I'm really glad that you care this much, and that so many other posters seem to care! We'll find a way to make this work, eventually.
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I agree - her charts and such are probably confusing her more. Rather than looking through pages and pages of stuff, I suggest she should write down her favored enemies and their respective bonuses - and then write down what rolls these bonuses apply to. Another option is to asterisk or star those items that have a bonus on her character sheet. when she's looking up a roll on her sheet, if she sees a star, she knows to check the creature type and add the bonus.
Cross referenced tables are great when you're trying to understand how a system's parts interact with each other. They're not so great in actual game play - you need the analytical and narrowminded but fast access of a cpu to make that a quick data access. ^_^
I often note down different "attack modes" (power attack, two weapon fighting, etc.) on a particular weapon myself - but they have to be in the form of simple notes so they're easy to reference.
What level is this game at? It's MUCH easier for a new player to grow in skill as their character starts at first level, as they slowly add complexity as they learn the ropes of the game.
If you are willing to do a little more hand holding (or assign a mentor to help out), you may want to ask her to tell you what she wants to have her character do in cinematic rather than mechanical terms - and then you or her mentor "translate" that into game terms.
The good news is, her dedication and efforts with the charts indicates that you have the most important ingredient - a player that wants to participate.
As a fellow IT person, I understand how easy it is to get into technical cant and lose other people in the conversation. I have, unhappily, been told I'm either intimidating or arrogant at times, though I try really hard not to be. One thing that has helped me defuse tense situations is a little depreciating humor "Oh, you know, I'm a computer person, I sometimes forget how to talk to actual human beings. If I'm not making sense, let me know, okay?" to encourage rather than discourage questions and discourse.
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Trying to stick just to advice on the conversation, because others have given good playing advice:
What does she like best about D&D? Why does she play? What does she actually do best? Then begin the conversation by complimenting her for this.
"I really liked this role-playing moment you had last session..."
"I love the way you bring out your backstory in game..."
"You are fun to play with because you..."
This last part is important, I think. As a woman, I'll respond a lot better to you in this situation if you tell me something I do well. Some reason why I, as opposed to all your friends who are just like you, am a valued member of this group. If you approach this as, "you are not fun right now, so we need to do something about it," I'll probably cry (or get mad, which is more my personal style). If you tell me, "you're really fun. Is there a way we could work on this?" I'll be more inclined to listen. For me, (I'm not trying to speak for other women), I find it annoying when guys approach me with an attitude of "let me fix this problem for you." If I've recognized the problem, I feel like it is so much more complex than your fix-it solution can deal with. It sounds to me like your friend knows there's some sort of problem if she feels so odd-man-out, so I would guess she wouldn't respond well to "being solved."
Then I would approach the actual problem not in terms of, "you don't do this well," but rather, "I get the sense that combat/record keeping/keeping track of numbers isn't that fun for you. It seems like it takes so long to process the character sheet [or however you would like to phrase the problem] that you don't get to experience the part of D&D that you really love. I've got some ideas for how we could improve this. Mind if we talk about it?"
That's my best advice, at least. Good luck to you!
EDIT: Looked at the OP again: Also, I would bet that her blaming everything on the dice is her way of avoiding the painful admission that things go badly because she sucks. I'd bet she really does think it's her fault, and she doesn't want to go there. Who would? I'd guess (total speculation, of course, since I don't know her) that a true solution/good advice would be welcome, as long as she doesn't get the message that she is a problem/it is her fault.
On beginning the conversation:
You're the GM and this game is your baby. It's only working if the players are having fun. It is always okay for the GM to ask the players how the game can be made better or more fun.
I would just start there. "I'm unhappy with how this has been going, and I'm pretty sure you're less than happy with it too. How can we fix this?"
Then, listen to what she has to say — make sure you tell her what you've told us, and find a compromise somehow.
Basic personal communication skills are a must here... if you're the kind of person who accidentally insults people a lot, you definitely want to keep a close rein on your words.
3rd Edition is alot more tactical than 2nd Edition...
AoO`s are a big part of this, and not the easiest thing for every player.
How do you play? If Threat Areas are clearly marked, that itself will help take them into account.
Having wire frame or translucent plastic threat `bubbles` give a visual idea of when you are in a `danger area` and where you might want to go to be safer. Without a visual cue, it is yet another abstract sub-system to track in one`s head, which can be fine for a veteran but that obviously isn`t the case here.
Was she even aware that shooting bows in melee range means enemies receive extra attacks against her when she made the choice for an archer Ranger? I also think the choice of a class with many situational modifiers was not a good one...
From the sound of things, she`s going way over board with plotting out every possible combo. I think most advanced playes plot out combos, but not for EVERY combo or permutation. Favored Enemy is probably best to NOT integrate into her attack routines, but list as a separate modifier. And really, like I said Ranger is somewhat of a poor choice because of all these situational modifiers... but a way around it is to take those modifiers out of the players hands: Tell her not to worry about it, and YOU the GM can add damage to her Favored Enemies and to her checks in Favored Terrain. >She can rest assured that she is doing more damage to her Favored Enemies and Sneaking and Perceiving better in here Favored Terrains, but doesn`t need to worry about tracking it all...
I agree with the advice that telling her `do you really want to provoke by doing that` is a good start, but she also needs to know what OPTIONS she has. Good advice (with pros and cons of each options) can be very helpful, if not overplayed. Likewise, why not encourage the other players to talk about WHY their character is doing what they`re doing (i.e. OK, that approach I would provoke 3 AoO`s, but this way there is only 1 which I can try to Tumble and avoid...), again with pro`s and con`s... She should quickly be able to see that the other PC`s ALSO must deal with the sorts of dangerous situations that her character does, but have strategies to mitigate it... and can also see that sometimes PC`s DO take the more dangerous route, but that it`s very possible to MINIMIZE these situations. I think it`s more closer to human nature to be able to recognize `oh this situation is similar to when Joe was in the dungeon, so i can react similarly to how Joe did then` rather than having no `face` to pin to multiple abstract sub-systems.
Also as already suggested, why not try some 1 on 1 mini games with her... You can play them as the past history of her character, for example. Use situations that she seems to have had trouble dealing with effectively... And maybe even have her control `the opposition`, to better understand what the enemy`s perspective is like, i.e. they WANT to get archers trapped within their threat area, or reach monsters to force smaller creatures to provoke when moving into melee (which is negated by cover, etc). In simple practice scenarios, there isn`t the worry of all the situational modifiers (exacerbated by the choice of Ranger) so she can just get confortable with the game itself. She also gets to associate positive things (winning) with the situations that are causing her trouble (AoO`s). Being an archer she never get`s to `win` by taking AoO`s against enemies, in the way that she might if she used a Reach Weapon (ironically, originally her first choice).
And last but not least, you`ve only described the problems... but you said that non-combat role playing is a big part of your game. How does she `roll` with this part of the game? If she`s fine with this part, is she vocalizing her contentment with this part of the game? Do you AND THE OTHER PLAYERS talk about how great the role playing parts were, and re-tell her character`s part in such? Given she`s having some problems with tactical aspects, having positive feedback in other areas is something that surely will help validate her participation while she struggles with difficult areas. If everybody thinks she`s playing fine on the roleplaying side, BUT DOESN^T VOCALIZE APPROVAL, there`s not as much to balance out the frustrating/negative aspects she`s experiencing. Perhaps if you play some tactical practice sessions with her, why not ALSO discuss the arc of the adventure plot, different character roles (PC and NPC, good guys and bad) along with her own character`s development. If she`s really stressed out about combat maybe she`s not even taking the time to fully enjoy the parts of the game she DOES enjoy, and talking about them can help make the whole experience more rewarding.
And the Animal Companion... is really just too much to worry about for now. Really, why not switch her to a high skill Fighter variant with the Ranger Skill list (instead of default `social and knowledge skills`) and decide that the Animal Companion is taking a vacation, or has mating season, but can be returned later. If rebuilding a character is too much trouble, she could keep the Ranger build but switch Hunter`s Bond to benefit her allies instead of granting an Animal Companion. Let the other players worry about tracking the bonus (or you could yourself, if you`re already doing it for her, see above) but play up her character`s contribution when they hit because of the bonus, i.e. when you describe hits also mention that her focused presence made it happen.
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I'm not a girl, but I am a professional educator with years of experience.
I warn her before she acts and give her the oppurtunity to take her action back ("doing that will cause 3 AoOs, are you sure?") and she goes ahead with it anyway.She doesn't NEED a warning. She needs alternatives. She doesn't KNOW how to avoid AOs. Asking her if she's sure doesn't help, because she STILL doesn't know how to fix it, it just makes her feel bad about the decision she made. She can't admit that she's having trouble, because she's trying to be one of the guys, and they never have trouble.
Solution: Recognize that she's new, don't ignore it. And then build her a mechanic to help her up to speed. Let her interrupt play three times of session to call a 'time-out', and ask a question. Either a how question "how do I get my character to safety when the monster has reach?" or a why question for one of the other players "why did you move there? Why didn't you charge in?...
Chances are, she'll be grateful. The other players will be glad she is improving, and I doubt she'll ever use all three questions in one night.
This is a good bit of advice and I agree with Deathquaker's and Jess Door's posts as well.
This really isn't a gender issue. It is a new player issue.
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Last big post
Ok with the other stuff I have said out of the way and what you have said since then.
Some others have said some good stuff but I will add.
1st try and keep the pregame stuff interesting for everyone. Don't let stuff just focus on IT stuff. Our group has a wide range or outside interest. So bring up other stuff, make sure something that interest everyone is brought up. Few things suck more than feeling excluded. The pregame talk might be a big cause of her problem. It has nothing to do with the income etc but about not feeling socially accepted or that your interests are consider uninteresting, in her case.
Me I like NFL football, as does most of our game group. But not everyone does so we make sure it doesn't dominate the pregame social stuff. When i GM I make sure everyone takes part, even if it means finding out about their likes, hobbies etc out of gaming and then asking about them during that time. In my experience that does wonders for most people if others seem interested in what they like.
2nd Is she close to one of the other players? Maybe one that is close to her age and or shares other interest or even similar gaming style with her? If so talk to the other player and see if they would be willing to talk to her and take her under their wing. Sometimes being singled out often by the GM makes you feel like your screwing up and messing the game up for everyone. So instead of learning you just push on to keep the game moving.
This other player helping her might be less intimidating for her and it would slow the game down less. Plus it might encourages others to offer advice as well. Just don't drown her in the advice and being to helpful. I know I know fine line to walk.
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The conversation.
Ultimately, what you are saying to her can easily be taken as criticism. How you frame it will be important.
This advice comes from a background in education.
1. The Sandwich: Your comments should be in three part: Praise/Criticism/Praise.
Start with praise so that she is receptive to your words, end with praise so that she is excited about acting on what has been said.
2. Choices: Don't just tell her what's going to happen. Include her in the process of fixing things. "I think it would be fun if we had 3 time-outs per session. Does three sound good to you, or would you like more?" She doesn't have to come up with solutions but if she has input into the solutions it makes her part of the team and gives her ownership/enfranchisement (which is engaging and motivating). "What would be better for you, a mentor or an advice panel?"
Longer than 4 seconds and the table says 'nuh-ner' like a tv-show buzzer and the next person has four seconds... a light-hearted way of getting her advice, and one that will engage the whole team and make her feel less silly (because someone will come up with a cool idea and others will say: "That's cool, I would never have said that" and also because people will have run out of ideas and so other people around the table will also be saying: "I don't know."
Edit: also, try to make sure that anything which gives extra table-time to her PathfinderRPG-training includes the whole table. They can help her and they will feel good about it. If they are left to twiddle their thumbs they may be frustrated with her and annoyed with themselves for being frustrated.
Having read up to current, I understand there's kind of a more fine-tuned question now being asked.
I'm playing in a group almost entirely of D&D newbs. A couple have played d20 video games but that's about it.
One thing that I've noticed starting to help is this: I've been weaning them off "pretty" character sheets and have a few of them running off of standard PFRPG statblocks.
On the one hand, a statblock is pretty terse. It's not at all obvious where bonuses come from. It's not at all obvious how the character was built. What is obvious is how to run the character. I tend to include lines for things like Power Attack, pre-calculated. So a fighter knows he can either make his basic melee attack(s) or he can PA. No different from seeing he can use his sword or use his dagger.
Anyway, standard character sheets reprint numbers over and over and over and it's a bloody confusing waste. Yes, the Dex modifier is +2. Got it. Doesn't help a player at the table to see that +2 reprinted in the Initiative line, in the AC line, in the ranged attacks line, and in half of the bloody skills. Sorry, that's overkill.
Just try a statblock. Help your player when it's time to do on-the-fly alterations (say she takes Dex damage), obviously. But I guarantee actually running the PC will go faster and cleaner.
Post it notes are 3 inch squares, and you probably have some around in the IT department.
Put one under each bad guy. Voila, threatened areas are now visible. You won't need to do this for long, because people learn fast from visual cues.
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I'd start with a discussion about house rules. Find out what EVERYONE's favorite and least favorite rules are. Have a discussion about what could be changed, and what the consequences of those changes would be, but don't commit as the DM.
For example, I know how to calculate the square root of two, but I don't need to include this in a game. Therefore, in my games, a square is a square, any direction, because it makes it faster and simpler.
Then, next session, announce all the changes you are making at once. Give everyone three timeout cards, and let it rip.
You know what happens if players have more timeouts than they need? Nothing.
Actually yes, Statblocks.
It's really a GM tool, and it can be counterproductive for some players, but...
The simple idea of presenting only the necessary data and grouping it by when it is referenced rather than thematic domains, that should cut down on search time a lot.
The difficulty there is, now you need two character sheets: the statblock for game time and the full sheet for management/leveling up.
I'm actually a slow player, myself, because I'm so used to running off statblocks and having MapTool do math for me, so I can relate. Running my own PC off a statblock helped recently (although it was a playtest inquisitor so all my numbers changed every round... *sigh*)
I'm a relatively new Pathfinder (and D&D in general) player myself, having played my first game around April of this year. When I was starting out my group was extremely helpful with explaining all of the possible options to me, and not getting annoyed when I made mistakes that made the combat unnecessarily difficult.
Of course, I started out with a wizard, which while it is a difficult class to play really well, it's relatively easy in terms of figuring out exactly what each spell does. One thing I would suggest is some sort of "buddy" or "mentor" system. Pair the player up with someone at the board who is very experienced (preferably someone who is very good at working out their own moves quickly, so they have the spare time) and discussing the possible options when it isn't her turn. This will allow the player to ask as many questions as she wants without holding the game up at all, as she'll have plenty of time in between turns (depending on the speed of your group, my group has 8 players plus the DM, and several of us have cohorts, so rounds can run a little long even when we're being efficient).
Ideally the mentor will be whoever is closest to her in the group, or whoever is least likely to consider it a burden. My group did something like this with me, and I've gone from my first game ever in April to running quite a successful game of my own in August, so it doesn't take long to learn.
Ok, another dude opinion that you can ignore...
I have played with female and male gamers alike. One thing that you mentioned that stuck out for me is that "it takes her 20 seconds to find her perception." This is not a terribly long time for a new player. Sometimes I wish my own players would only take 20 seconds to make checks.
I have worked in IT myself for the last five years. IT professionals are not known to be the most patient people and she may feel intimidated if she feels like she is being judged. I could certainly be wrong but you may want to pay attention and make sure that there is no subtle eye rolling and sighing going on when she has a problem. Women are ten times more sensitive to body language than men are and she may be picking up on things that you dont notice.
She doesn't NEED a warning. She needs alternatives.
Agreed.
If possible, talk to a female player (or more) in your game and have her shepherd the new girl along. I did this some years ago and it worked better than having her SO give advice (he treated her as a second character...). An 5-1 girl game I ran had the same mechanic for bringing along the 2 new girls (sister and new wife), without input from me, the GM.
<edit>A friend just checked in, one of the women above: Her solution is to reduce the character to a single index card. This reduces confusion and keeps little ADHD boys (like her hubbie and me) from wandering too far. And 'yes', she did this to both of us last game.
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I'm going to chime in, I've always gamed with girls, and I'm often introducing new players to the game.
When running the game I always give my new players options:
"Yes, you can fire your bow right now, but you'll get wailed on by those three guys. You can take a 5-foot step as a free action though, and still fire your bow. You'll take attacks from that third guy, but being attacked once is better than three times."
This is mostly because they don't know what they can do.
One of my players is a barbarian. Every combat I ask her: "Are you raging?" Just so she can remember that raging is a choice she can make.
Basically she knows what she wants her character to do, just find her the way to let her do it.