So I've been DMing a 'Legacy of Fire' group which started using the new Advanced Player's Guide. We have an experienced group of players who enjoy the new options but are always aware when a certain power or ability seems destabilizing to the game. The power in question is the Witch's Sleep Hex. Currently, we've run through two of the six modules using the following build:
Elven Witch 6
Elven Barbarian 4, Oracle 2
Elven Monk (Zen Archer) 6, Ranger 1
Elven Oracle 6
As the first module progressed, it became obvious that the power of the witch's sleep hex seemed on par with that of a Sleep spell, though slightly weaker with more limitations. The only thing that stood out were a number of encounters with the module's Beasts and Magical Beasts. Despite having more than 4 HD, 3 out of 4 of the module's unique fauna fell prey to the instant coup-de grace of the Sleep Hex combined with the Barbarian/Oracle of Battle's ability to immediately move on the witch's turn and set up for the kill. When the module's final encounters against the BBEGs were set up (cover-boy and the final monster), I knew by their stats that they had an even chance of falling prey to the instant-kill of the Witch and Barbarian, forcing me to fudge their saves (which ended up failing) so the encounter would at least be climatic. By the first module's end, I knew something might be overpowered with the ability.
Our second module progressed, with similar results to the first one. I began to notice something that generally doesn't occur at 5th/6th level of play: monsters were being forced to make a save-or-slumber, when effects that outright incapacitate a monster are usually very limited in their scope (such as Hold Monster) or didn't outright render a creature helpless (such as Hideous Laughter). More wandering magical beasts, humanoids, and pretty much anything that wasn't undead or a dragon fell prey repeatedly to the slumber. Understand that I had spent a great deal of time Pathfindering out the stats of all the NPCs and monsters in the module which weren't in the Bestiary, and a number of them had Iron Will or other defenses against the Hex power. In the end, it didn't matter, as everything in the House of the Beast (up to Ghartok, which is where we stopped) has been utterly slain by either Coup-de-Grace or a rain of arrows (which is its own discussion. The Zen-Archer Monk is pretty damned ridiculous).
Currently, our module is on Hiatus as I examine the hex and try to adjudicate its power. It seems like its only going to grow worse for the monsters as the Witch's DC scales upward, while their saves scale a bit slower. I am aware that it does not function on Undead, Constructs, Plants, Oozes, Dragons, and Elves, but for the other 70% of the encounters, I am worried about that they are going to devolve into a "Save or Slumber" every fight that immediately ends after one round.
My biggest problem is the Sleep Hex's ability to reduce a perfectly healthy creature of any power level to utterly helpless on one failed roll. As the Pathfinder rules came out, I noticed that they had gotten rid of almost all of the 'Save-or-die' effects, instead replacing them with damage (slay living/finger of death/implosion/destruction) or requiring a touch or a certain condition (Imprisonment/ Power Word Kill) to function. Even at low level, Sleep itself, while devastating, has enough limits on placement, HD, and the very fact that it's an expendable power limit it somewhat. Other effects that debilitate a creature (Hideous Laughter/ Sound Burst/ Hold Person) either don't reduce them to straight helpless, or give them an additional save (as with the Hold Spells, which if I remember correctly were given that feature because they were essentially a "Save or Die" spell when used against PCs.)
So... How do I adjudicate this power? Due I enforce a HD limit? An additional save every round? Require multiple saves, with each one moving closer to helpless? Has anyone else had problems with this Hex's power level in their game? I feel as if I just play it as is, I'm going to have a very anti-climatic campaign on my hands.
Finally, does the Slumber effect all Outsiders? It says on a number of them that they do not require sleep but may sleep if they so choose. Does this mean they are susceptible to the Hex? (we've ruled 'yes' in my game so far..)
It is really opponent dependent. I picked sleep hex for our second darkness campaign and after the early bit it stoppered getting used much since most things we were fighting were immune.
This thread contains a pretty good discussion of the troublesome nature of the slumber hex.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/amIBeingFair&page=1
As I said in the above thread:
Sleep = Death.
I find any effect that allows a coup de grace to be VERY powerful, and the slumber hex is a great example. I think making it the Stun Hex would put the power level more in line with a use-it-all-day ability.
EDIT: Unless there is some specif note about immunity (such as constructs, undead, elves, etc., then they are vulnerable to sleep.
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It sounds as though even allowing a new save every round isn't going to solve the problem since your Witch-Barbarian team is setting up for the kill in the same round the hex is used. The sleeping monster might get only one chance to make the save only to wake up prone with a barbarian standing over them. I suppose there are a few other things you can try to do.
Limit the number of uses of the Hex ability: Most of the classes already have a limit to how often they can use certain class abilties (rage, smite, channel, etc.) Why not limit the use of certain hexes (or the total use of hexes) to 3+Int modifier/day? Flight and Disguise already have built in daily use limits, but you could apply a limit to stuff like Charm, Sleep and Evil Eye if the unlimited use is getting out of hand. I don't think this would be too drastic since these abilities far exceed the power of orisons and cantrips which are also usable 24hr/day.
Limit the target's HD to the Witch's HD: This might not save your BBEG's goons, but it would preserve game tension when your party stumbles into the lair of a beast who's HD equals the combined HD of the party. Alternately...
Allow higher HD creatures a bonus to their save or give them a lesser effect: Maybe monsters with higher HD than the witch are only dazed for a single round by the hex or get a +2 or higher bonus on the save?
Give the party a dose of their own medicine: Insert an encounter with a coterie of elven witches (who all have the slumber and coven hexes) and their brood of half-elf greataxe-wielding barbarians. You could introduce a dragon with a cult of wight witches but that might come off as spiteful.
I try to use as few houserules as possible but, the way I see it, if something is making the game less fun, it might need to be modified or removed.
Since this hex can only target one person once per day I don't see it being over powered. A sleeping target can be awakened by standard action or they take damage. A simple kick in full attack against you sleeping buddy next to you is enough to wake them up. So this hex either works or it doesn't and it can't be used twice in one day on the same opponent. Seem balance to me.
A Coup De Grace is Full Round Action so you can't move before during or after the attack. So if you use a immediate action, as swift action, to move you can't coup de grace that round. Next round you could but by then an ally should have at least thrown a dagger at the sleeping ally.
Tell the witch to stop sucking the fun out of the game for you by essentially using a powerful, unlimited save-or-die on every single opponent they encounter.
God, I hate the sleep hex. Just the concept of being able to choose a will save or die spell as an at-will ability at first level is ridiculous. I mean, you might have sleep prepared as a wizard, right? That's fine. You have like, three, maybe four spells, so choosing sleep is like picking a grenade for your arsenal. You take color spray-- a room sweeper automatic shotgun-- and magic missile-- an SMG-- coupled with acid splash or ray of frost-- a sidearm-- and you're good. The witch dials in a code and gets a frickin' golden gun.
One of my players used it in CotCT, and he used it I think maybe ten times total from level 1 to 16. He got a few important creatures with it, but he didn't spam it at every single encounter. If you can convince your player to do the same thing, then the game can actually continue.
A Coup De Grace is Full Round Action so you can't move before during or after the attack. So if you use a immediate action, as swift action, to move you can't coup de grace that round. Next round you could but by then an ally should have at least thrown a dagger at the sleeping ally.
You're mistaken, I believe. Full round action does not qualify that you must not have moved at all in the round, nor does it take your swift actions. Hell, you can take a five foot step during a full attack, which is a full round action.
I suppose standard actions or broken full attacks could wake up people. Would be better than nothing.
"The witch sleeps, the oracle immediate action moves up with surprising charge and on his turn he coup de graces." The thing about this is that I just saw he can only use surprising charge once per day, or twice at 7th. So, only extremely clutch and instant death once per day. Oh, joy.
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You're mistaken, I believe. Full round action does not qualify that you must not have moved at all in the round, nor does it take your swift actions. Hell, you can take a five foot step during a full attack, which is a full round action.
I suppose standard actions or broken full attacks could wake up people. Would be better than nothing.
"The witch sleeps, the oracle immediate action moves up with surprising charge and on his turn he coup de graces." The thing about this is that I just saw he can only use surprising charge once per day, or twice at 7th. So, only extremely clutch and instant death once per day. Oh, joy.
I don't think the sleep hex is overpowered having read through both threads and using a witch NPC with the ability against my party. Adding the Battle Oracles suprising charge is a tactic that is very limited. It's a Combo attack that requires some set up and can only be done sparingly.
Don't take away your players toys. AP's can't be written with every class combo out there in mind. As GM you need to adjust some of the encounters to suit your party. Let your party have some success with the tactic they're using, it'll become far less lethal at higher levels.
And just for good measure... tanglefoot bag the Oracle once in a while!
--School of Vrock
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You're mistaken, I believe. Full round action does not qualify that you must not have moved at all in the round, nor does it take your swift actions. Hell, you can take a five foot step during a full attack, which is a full round action.
I suppose standard actions or broken full attacks could wake up people. Would be better than nothing.
"The witch sleeps, the oracle immediate action moves up with surprising charge and on his turn he coup de graces." The thing about this is that I just saw he can only use surprising charge once per day, or twice at 7th. So, only extremely clutch and instant death once per day. Oh, joy.
I don't think the sleep hex is overpowered having read through both threads and using a witch NPC with the ability against my party. Adding the Battle Oracles suprising charge is a tactic that is very limited. It's a Combo attack that requires some set up and can only be done sparingly.
Don't take away your players toys. AP's can't be written with every class combo out there in mind. As GM you need to adjust some of the encounters to suit your party. Let your party have some success with the tactic they're using, it'll become far less lethal at higher levels.
And just for good measure... tanglefoot bag the Oracle once in a while!
--School of Vrock
marker so I can find the thread when I get back.
Thanks for input thus far. I am leaning towards a sliding scale of saves based on monster's HD versus the hex, though my players think this might be too complicated. As I've come up with:
Witch's Sleep Hex (Curse, Mind Affecting Enchantment, Sleep)
1/rd 3 rds, Cure 1 save
-Creature with 5 HD less than Witch's HD: Success= Exhausted, Failure= Unconscious.
-Creature with less or equal HD than witch's (but not less than 5): Success= Fatigued, 1st failed save= Dazed, 2d faile save= Unconscious.
-Creature with more HD than witch: Success= Fatigued, 1st failed save= staggered, 2nd failed save= dazed, 3rd failed save= unconscious.
They might be right in at it's too complicated, though if anyone has ran an alternative system for this ability, let me know. Nonetheless, I am leaning toward the above for lack of an alterntive.
Oh, and to be fair, the Barbarian Oracle is my NPC. The combo of the surprising charge and sleep Hex just sort of crept up in gameplay and has become a pretty nasty tactic.
Is there a reason why the sleeping monster's allies aren't taking AOOs on the bbn/oracle?
Sleep? Why are there no undead? Elves? constructs? Seriously if sleep is stopping you then I think you really aren't trying that hard.
Sleep? Why are there no undead? Elves? constructs? Seriously if sleep is stopping you then I think you really aren't trying that hard.
So I've been DMing a 'Legacy of Fire'
Sleep? Why are there no undead? Elves? constructs? Seriously if sleep is stopping you then I think you really aren't trying that hard.
Thanks. I did not want to be the one to have to say it.
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How high is the save DC?
From what I can tell it should be
10 + 1/2 Witch Level + Int Modifier.
So Assuming an 18 with +2 Racial... DC - 18ish?
These are 3.5 monsters, so they'll be a little short on Feats. Might I recommend Iron Will as a bonus feat for your more important NPCs?
Perhaps an occasional Alchemist NPC with Int draining poison?
Out of game though - Perhaps you might talk to the player and ask that the Slumber ability be changed to touch range. It means that she'll be provoking attacks of opportunity from whatever she wants to put to sleep (and for the HP poor witch, that's a trade-off you'd want to watch out for).
How high is the save DC?
From what I can tell it should be
10 + 1/2 Witch Level + Int Modifier.
So Assuming an 18 with +2 Racial... DC - 18ish?
These are 3.5 monsters, so they'll be a little short on Feats. Might I recommend Iron Will as a bonus feat for your more important NPCs?
Perhaps an occasional Alchemist NPC with Int draining poison?
Out of game though - Perhaps you might talk to the player and ask that the Slumber ability be changed to touch range. It means that she'll be provoking attacks of opportunity from whatever she wants to put to sleep (and for the HP poor witch, that's a trade-off you'd want to watch out for).
Oops! It's supernatural so no AoO's anyways.
Honestly there are plenty of ways to negate a sleep effect -- from vermin, to swarms, to constructs, to undead, to elves, to dwarves in most cases, to cleric/druid/paladin/oracle/wizard/sorcerer/monk and ending on outsiders and dragons. The best this ability will be putting out for DC at this level is 13+5+2= DC 20. Considering the number of things with good will saves or that are vermin or outsiders in the campaign I would point out the majority of creatures aren't going to have problems with that DC (CR 6 creature with a good will save is looking at +5 before wisdom bonus or Iron Will or a cloak of resistance. With wisdom of 13~15 Iron will and even just a +1 cloak of resistance we are looking at a +9~+10 on will saves or an even 50/50 without really trying).
Consider using some of those other nasty things the creatures/characters in the campaign have against the players instead of setting up party vs one slaughter/slug fests.
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Sleep is an enchantment (compulsion). Protection from Evil (or what ever applicable alignment) makes people immune / gives them an additional save.
Once the party gets a reputation for having a mind controlling witch word should get around. Toss in some scrolls and potions of them and have enemy casters memorize and use it.
Sleep is an enchantment (compulsion). Protection from Evil etc makes people immune. Problem solved.
Um... Immune is the incorrect word. PoE suppresses the effect if cast before the effect comes in -- and only for as long as the PoE lasts, if the effect out lasts the PoE then it will no longer be suppressed once the PoE drops. Other than that PoE just provides a +2 resistance bonus against such effects, and allows a reroll if the effect is in place before the PoE was cast.
Even then it only works against such effects cast by evil people. If the witch is good then you need PoG... if the witch is chaotic then you need PoC... if the witch is straight neutral then you're screwed.
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Sleep is an enchantment (compulsion). Protection from Evil etc makes people immune. Problem solved.Um... Immune is the incorrect word. PoE suppresses the effect if cast before the effect comes in -- and only for as long as the PoE lasts, if the effect out lasts the PoE then it will no longer be suppressed once the PoE drops. Other than that PoE just provides a +2 resistance bonus against such effects, and allows a reroll if the effect is in place before the PoE was cast.
:) Immune to any new attempts made while the spell is running.
I hadn't spotted the change on alignments in the protection spells - that's a good change, makes it less of a blanket buff. The true neutral hole needs to be filled though.
:) Immune to any new attempts made while the spell is running.Sleep is an enchantment (compulsion). Protection from Evil etc makes people immune. Problem solved.Um... Immune is the incorrect word. PoE suppresses the effect if cast before the effect comes in -- and only for as long as the PoE lasts, if the effect out lasts the PoE then it will no longer be suppressed once the PoE drops. Other than that PoE just provides a +2 resistance bonus against such effects, and allows a reroll if the effect is in place before the PoE was cast.
Hmpf not only that but it's a +2 morale bonus on the re-save too instead of resistance -- but still only works for spells cast by creatures of the appropriate alignment. So your monsters best have some way of knowing the witch's alignment other than GM fiat... which at the part of the AP they are doing isn't very likely (but *could* be possible).
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-Creature with 5 HD less than Witch's HD: Success= Exhausted, Failure= Unconscious.
-Creature with less or equal HD than witch's (but not less than 5): Success= Fatigued, 1st failed save= Dazed, 2d faile save= Unconscious.
-Creature with more HD than witch: Success= Fatigued, 1st failed save= staggered, 2nd failed save= dazed, 3rd failed save= unconscious.
Since it looks like you might be going with the lesser effects and your current plan confuses your players, why not eliminate some of the clutter?
Perhaps:
Creature with equal or less HD than witch's: Failure = Sleep
Creature exceeding witch's HD by up to 3: Failure = Exhausted 1rd/witch level
Creature exceeding witch's HD beyond +3: Failure = Fatigued 1rd/witch level
Therefore, a lv.1 witch could knock out a 1HD orc, exhaust a 4HD ogre or fatigue a 5HD (or higher) owlbear.
A successful save means the hex has no effect.
This still won't entirely eliminate your problem with lower HD mooks, but it keeps tougher enemies in the fight (exhaustion can be pretty nasty but at least the guy can defend himself.)
The problem I see with only being able to put creatures of 5HD less than the witch to sleep is that a level 1 witch (as written) won't be able to put anything to sleep with the hex.
A Coup De Grace is Full Round Action so you can't move before during or after the attack. So if you use a immediate action, as swift action, to move you can't coup de grace that round. Next round you could but by then an ally should have at least thrown a dagger at the sleeping ally.You're mistaken, I believe. Full round action does not qualify that you must not have moved at all in the round, nor does it take your swift actions. Hell, you can take a five foot step during a full attack, which is a full round action.
I suppose standard actions or broken full attacks could wake up people. Would be better than nothing.
"The witch sleeps, the oracle immediate action moves up with surprising charge and on his turn he coup de graces." The thing about this is that I just saw he can only use surprising charge once per day, or twice at 7th. So, only extremely clutch and instant death once per day. Oh, joy.
You are right. I read that wrong. The full round action may not allow you to use you a 5' step, coup de grace doesn't say it doesn't allow that. As well it specifically stats you can use a swift action.
Is there a reason why the sleeping monster's allies aren't taking AOOs on the bbn/oracle?
Presumably there are places in Legacy of Fire where the bad guys don't have a lot of allies. And even so, one attack of opportunity from a peon is a small price to pay for instantly killing the boss.
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I remember maby a month ago, I was playing in a pathfinder society module, I think it was called “blood cove” or something like that. I had a 6th level inquisitor. There were an number of points in the game where we had to make a number of profession checks. The guy playing the witch character had a sleep and I think a charm hex, I think the witch was 6th level. Whenever a check was called for he would say, “ and he needs to make a DC 18 will save for my charm hex” We all laughed, and thoughts of “ these arn’t the pathfinders your looking for” crossed my mind.
I do wonder if some of these hexes are “too useful”.
Perhaps a simple solution is to say these hexes function like a sleep spell, or a charm person spell.
It probably has already been suggested,
I hope this helps.
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There were an number of points in the game where we had to make a number of profession checks. The guy playing the witch character had a sleep and I think a charm hex, I think the witch was 6th level. Whenever a check was called for he would say, “ and he needs to make a DC 18 will save for my charm hex” We all laughed, and thoughts of “ these arn’t the pathfinders your looking for” crossed my mind.
That totally depends on the type of profession checks, I don't have my PFS on this computer, but many of the profession checks in PFS don't have any one to charm, its either removing something or creating something... Neither of which are helped by charming
Sleep? Why are there no undead? Elves? constructs? Seriously if sleep is stopping you then I think you really aren't trying that hard.Thanks. I did not want to be the one to have to say it.
Don't forget dragons! And elementals. And plants. And oozes. And vermin. And swarms (vs. single target effects). Familiars also work well against the sleep (it still works, but the familiar can use a standard action to wake up whoever is affected).
The main reason I don't like the slumber hex is the tempo component in combat. If it works, the bad guy drops his weapons -- and falls prone. This is like using two versions of the grease spell at the same time. . . but with a level-scaling DC. Thankfully you can't "spam" it on a bad guy.
As a GM I'd allow the ability, but I think it's tuned a little on the strong side. If you want to tune it down a bit, you can give a +2 bonus on the saving throw if the target's HD is > the witch's level. That way a player still gets it to work on high CR monsters -- but with less frequency.
I think a lot of people are missing the point of my original post. I am quite capable of looking at the Sleep entry and seeing what monsters are immune to it. (And Second Darkness would be the one path where the Hex is not useful due to majority of elves throughout the adventure)
As I listed in my post, for the majority of APs and pre-published adventures, the Witch is going to devestate the adventure. Rise of the Ruinlords? Good luck with those will saves, giants! Crimson Throne? Until you get to Scarwall, most of the humanoid and outsiders are in big trouble. As we get to Legacy, it feels really convoluted to contrive a whole bunch of monsters that suddenly come out of nowhere just to be immune to one PCs power. Yeah, as a DM I could throw in the types of creatures that are immune to sleep... if I wanted to nerf my players and limit their fun. (which would be like telling the Channel-feat invested cleric that there will no longer be undead in the path beause his channeling abilities are too powerful). What I'm looking for is a compromise of some sort with the power itself.
In fact, short of possibly Minor Globe of Invulnerability and definitely Mind Blank, nothing in the game short of inherent racial powers stops Sleep. That bothers me. I feel like magic items are not the solution (Their wealth is already above the curve due to the high treasure output of the path) I think that just creates a power escalation I'm not prepared for.
Potential compromise? Well, reduce the HD affected, of course. Give it a limited number of uses (either a cooldown time or per day). Perhaps let it work like the Repose domain power and require 2 uses, then wave the 1/day clause.
Also, protection from evil might help some of critters out against the effect, as it duplicates the sleep spell, which is a compulsion effect. Not a complete fix, but helpful.
The witch has many hexes that have 1/enemy use because they are low on power. Changing that dynamic would swing things too far. What is the save dc based on? perhaps change it from level dependant to 1/2 level or 1/4 level to make ti less powerful. Sleep is not save or die. The pc must take a round to get set up where they can coup de grace because it is a full attack action, keeping enemies at range and having them wake their allies will make this tactic largely ineffective.. If they make the save, well what is the witch gonna do?
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"And that my friends, is the problem with Gnolls. They are just as likely to laugh at their companions getting Coup-de-graced as they are to wake him up."
"And that my friends, is the problem with Gnolls. They are just as likely to laugh at their companions getting Coup-de-graced as they are to wake him up."
QFT.
Well, sorta. Hyenas (and Gnolls by extension) are pretty serious about family, so I can see the rest going all berserker on the witch when he/she/it drops their chief. My solution- add 1-2 more Gnolls in non-AP scripted locations in the encounter. Their job is to get to the Witch. Call it a Blitz, if you will. It should really be 2, since they can only hex 1/turn. The point here is not to penalize the W, they can sleep the Gs all day, but to run interference so the rest of the party gets some action too.
And ditch the DMPC. It always leads to imbalance.
The problem isn't the witch, it's the npc that can coup de grace so swiftly.
You're glossing over the "standard action to wake sleeping allies" and the "attack of opportunity foils coup de grace" bits. Add another low level fighter to the encounters where there is just one monster so they can stand around and kick the boss awake, or poke the oracle.
Sleep isn't that big of deal, and sometimes a lucky or specialized character is going to shine in some area. I had a dwarven defender in against the giants once, dm wasn't too pleased with +14 to hit giants fighting an ac 42 target.
A DMPC should not be part of a deadly OP combo. that's your own fault. Seriously player swill come up with kick ass things all by themselves,s don't help them then whine about it in the boards, looking for justification to nerf the PC's character. Spend less time on a DMPC and mroe time playing smarter monsters. If you are serious about playing stupid gnolls, then you deserve what you get.
Tell me about it. Our Zen-Archer Monk/ ranger needs to only roll a 2 to hit any gnoll and minimum damage will typically kill one (even a classed gnoll). Giving Perfect Strike, Point Blank Master, Flurry with a Bow, and Ki for extra attacks, and you're looking at the most efficient damage dealer I've seen in PRPG so far. He never needs to move to make full attacks at any distance and is very hard to hit, with good saves to boot. That's hardly the problem though, as I don't mind specialized characters having a chance to shine, especially given the number of gnolls and open terrain in the first two modules. For now, he is Death Incarnate to gnolls, and they rightly fear him. (to the point of altering tactics, such as smoke, fog clouds, and the like... )
My NPC honestly rarely uses the Surprise Move anymore for the instant Coup-De-Grace tactic. What usually happens is once the monsters are base to base with the barbarian or monk, the witch usually uses the Hex, allowing either character to Coup-de-Grace (Bows and Greataxes are both X3). Taking the Attack of Opportunity is always worth it, especially when the straight class Oracle is packing Shield Other and lots of channels.
I think the elimination of the NPC might make the path a bit too hard. I think the few bad guys who are immune to the tactics described above might wipe the party without the damage output/soakage of a brute.
Thanks for advice so far nonetheless, its been useful for helping me get my "Legacy of Fire" campaign back on track. :)
A DMPC should not be part of a deadly OP combo. that's your own fault. Seriously player swill come up with kick ass things all by themselves,s don't help them then whine about it in the boards, looking for justification to nerf the PC's character. Spend less time on a DMPC and mroe time playing smarter monsters. If you are serious about playing stupid gnolls, then you deserve what you get.
As I've said, the Surprise Move is not part of the problem. If you're not going to give constructive criticism and instead say effectively, "You're stupid", please keep your comments to yourself and stop wasting people's time. The Witch's Hex is the focus here, not the combo.
I had a similar problem with the Beguiler class (3.5 PHB2). The Beguiler would frequently end encounters with spamming sleep, deep slumber and enchantment spells, allowing the rest of the party to CdG the bad guys unhindered.
In that campaign (Age of Worms), the problem sorted itself out due to most of the later encounters being with undead and dragons. Before then though, a couple encounters were essentially over after the Beguiler's first round. Eventually, I started working over some of the main bad guys to give them feats like Iron Will, or the elite array, or other methods to give them a greater chance at making the save.
Of course, those spells had a HD-cap (unlike the slumber hex), plus stated they affected the lowest HD creatures in range first.
If I were to "fix" the hex, I'd put a cap of HD=witch level, probably.
You're glossing over the "standard action to wake sleeping allies" and the "attack of opportunity foils coup de grace" bits.
A coup de grace isn't foiled by an Attack of Opportunity. At least I can't find any rules that say it is. . .
You're glossing over the "standard action to wake sleeping allies" and the "attack of opportunity foils coup de grace" bits.A coup de grace isn't foiled by an Attack of Opportunity. At least I can't find any rules that say it is. . .
It certainly does disrupt the action if you manage to kill your friend's attacker. :P
Hey hey, let`s keep the tone on an agreeable level here.
Rakshaka, in your first post, in the very first sentence you specifically describe the problem, you mention the (DMPC) Oracle (with Surprise Move) so it`s pretty un-surprising that people would be discussing that.
If it wasn`t part of the problem why would you mention it in the first place? Why is the DMPC wasting it`s action with the Coup-de-Grace if that isn`t a powerful option in combo with Sleep?
I agree the Sleep Hex as written is problematic (by itself).
I don`t have a problem with it scaling beyond the Sleep spell itself,
but a HD limit equal to Caster Level seems more than reasonable to me.
I don`t know... if Paladin Smite can be amended, so can the Slumber Hex?
I also think that Surprise Move is a very disruptive ability...
But it`s very limited usages/day keeps it under control...
Slumber Hex has no limit besides that it only effects 1 opponent/round, and it`s DC scales like top-level spells.
It`s one of those things that is SO good that as a player you feel like maybe you shouldn`t take it just because it over powers the game too much. But rationally speaking, why would a PC in character not use such an ability to the extent possible? And that`s the design problem. If saying `just don`t use it (very much)` is the answer, then every single class could have at-will Death Attacks with Class Level+Prime Stat as Saves, right?
It`s definitely on my list of things in the APG that I don`t think is quite perfectly balanced... and probably Errata (like Paladin Smite) could help. The thing is that for published material like AP`s (and even more so, Organized Play) it seems like ability`s like Slumber Hex can just too radically disrupt the balance point, yet the APs and PFS Modules are written without knowing if that class/ability is in the party or not. Obviously, that`s already true to a certain extent with Core Classes like Paladin, but it just seems like creating more cases like that should be something done with more care.