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So I just finished running book 1 of Kingmaker and while a good time was had by all, there are some holes in the design of the campaign.
**SPOILER ALERTS**
If you haven't finished or played Book 1 of Kingmaker and want to HIT THE BACK BUTTON NOW.
No seriously....
No? Still here? Okay then.
There are two major areas in which there was a hole in the design of the campaign which would have allowed my players to exploit a cantrip to pretty much defeat a huge section of the book. I did not allow either of these because damn it, they were major plot points.
The first time was at the Old Sycamore. My players found the Old Sycamore and waited for the daytime (when the mites were sleeping). Then they decided that with a 3rd level druid and a cleric with CREATE WATER prepared that they would flood them out. Between the two of them they could make a gallon a second or 60 gallons in a minute, 1200 gallons in an hour. When the mites left the flooding hole they would be bottlenecked and would be killed one by one. Sadly I could not think of a reason why they realistically couldn't do this so I just had to DM Hammer the idea. Its not something I like doing (it was the first time I had to do it so blatantly) but I wasn't going to let them get all that XP for practically no work. So I gave them some bonus XP for creativity and sent them on their way.
The second part is with the Stag Lord. They saw the fortress and instead of trying to infiltrate themselves, they decide on a full on assault. Of course to do this they want a catapult and who happens to have a catapult that owes them a big favor and hates the Stag Lord. Why it's Olegg, the PCs main contact. What's that you say? Olegg's catapults are busted? But wait, doesn't the cleric have the MENDING cantrip? Why yes, yes she does.
So they fixed the catapult and brought it into the forest. I laughed and told them the catapult got stuck, because it isn't a forest meant for bringing siege weapons through. So what do my clever players do? Break the catapult up into pieces and carry it through the forest and use the MENDING cantrip on it when they arrive. Since I did not want my players to make easy work of the final fight due to an oversight by Paizo, I decided that the chances of my players bringing a catapult in pieces in their backpacks and reassembling said jigsaw without missing any crucial pieces would be slim.
So I rolled a percentile die, they lost and now they say I didn't let them bring the catapult. Of course if the die had rolled in their favor, then it would have been how brilliant they were. I swear, sometimes DMs don't get any love.
If I recall, mending in Pathfinder can only repair items that weigh up to 1 pound/level; this essentially means that the only way to repair the thing is through natural skill checks and the like.
As for flooding out the mites, that's going to be a bit hard to pull off, to say the least. 1200 gallons is roughly enough to fill a single 5' cube with water, and that's assuming you throw it all down at once. Dirt is amazingly absorbent and the caves underneath the thing are not slouch in size. The entrance leads into a 40' long tunnel before touching the first two rooms. You've made the upper level muddy at best.
I would have let the Create Water orison work, although I'd be scrambling to see if the mites were capable of digging out a second exit. It's a clever tactic, and it's not like mites are the brightest creatures in the world.
Regarding the catapults and Mending...
From the spell:
Target: one object of up to 1 lb./level
Unless you have a catapult made of feathers, I don't see an issue here. If there is a specific part of the mechanism that is light enough, and that is all that's wrong with the catapult, Mending could work, but breaking down and entire catapult? No way.
I think there are two issues going on here.
The first is that certain cantrips are overpowered when they're allowed to be autospammed forever. Create Water and Mending are tops on the list.
I would recommend moving both Create Water and Mending to 1st level spells and in their place putting Dowsing/Locate Water in place of Create Water for a cantrip, and some extremely temporary form of mending, like a hypothetical "paste" spell that would let you stick up wanted posters or glue some minor break, but not in a strong or secure way. Paste a rip page back into a book? Sure. Paste a broken catapult back together? No.
That said, your other problem is that your players are coming up with engineering solutions to scenarios you want to run as combats and you're punishing them for it.
Please, don't do this. It upsets players and makes them feel (and rightly) that they've been chained to the world's most boring railroad.
Even without a druid autospamming Create Water, your characters are in the River Kingdoms. There should be the river or another body of water reasonably nearby, and it's entirely possible that the players bought a supply of waxed leather buckets (standard in the middle ages, and easy to pack) and set up a bucket brigade to the same effect.
The catapult? Rather than pull some random percentile out of the air, ask for a Profession Siege Engineer or Craft Siege Engine for characters to know how to properly disassemble and reassemble a catapult to port it through the forest. If they don't have either of those, go with a DC of five higher for Knowledge Engineering to disassemble and reassemble the catapult, keeping in mind that it's not a terribly complex device, just a big one.
However, the catapults in question are not repairable by Mending following the RAW because the legitimate targets are objects weighing up to 1 lb per level of the caster. A 1st level character, or even a third level character, could mend a toy catapult, not a real one.
Also, following the text of the adventures, it says it would take "many weeks of work" to make them usable again. I would spell out those "many weeks" to mean that all the ropes and wood are degraded and rotten. Basically the metal fittings and a few bits and pieces of the design could be saved, but you're essentially making a new catapult out of felled trees, new ropes and so on.
At 1200 gallons an hour, it would literally take over 24 hours of casting this spell straight (so probably broken up into two days with sleep in the middle) to fill a cave as small as my apartment.
And that's assuming that it's not just draining through the dirt and rock... I mean, it survives a good rain doesn't it?
That's dedication. I'd be rolling Con checks to see if their voices go hoarse, etc. Fatigue/Exhaustion setting in as a special case.
It'd probably be easier to try diverting part of a nearby river into this thing.
People need to understand that while a gallon is a lot to drink, it doesn't take up as much space as you think.
Spill a gallon on the floor and it's really not taking up that much space.
And mending already has a limiter with the poundage.
Yeah, I'm not seeing the problems here as long as you understand the actual volumes in play.
| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. |
The first time was at the Old Sycamore. My players found the Old Sycamore and waited for the daytime (when the mites were sleeping). Then they decided that with a 3rd level druid and a cleric with CREATE WATER prepared that they would flood them out. Between the two of them they could make a gallon a second or 60 gallons in a minute, 1200 gallons in an hour. When the mites left the flooding hole they would be bottlenecked and would be killed one by one. Sadly I could not think of a reason why they realistically couldn't do this so I just had to DM Hammer the idea. Its not something I like doing (it was the first time I had to do it so blatantly) but I wasn't going to let them get all that XP for practically no work. So I gave them some bonus XP for creativity and sent them on their way.
I kinda think maybe we need a create water FAQ, because people just don't truly understand how much 3 gallons, or even 3600 gallons (which is how many gallons you can actually create in an hour at a rate of one gallon per second), truly is.
First, go take a look at the map for the Old Sycamore. You see how everything sort of leads down toward the very bottom of the map, area R4, the Centipede Chasm? Water, as you undoubtedly know, flows downhill. If the PCs were to start doing this, they'd find (or would if they were willing to actually go in to look in the first place) that all the water is flowing down past all the mites into the chasm. So, in fact, the first thing that's going to be coming out the entrance at them is the rather annoyed Huge centipede, which is not likely to be a pushover, particularly for characters prepared for a bunch of mites. Even so, however, that's not really the issue.
Look at the size of the chasm where the centipede hangs out. It's roughly 70 feet long, 10 feet wide at its widest point, and 20 feet deep. A fairly conservative estimate of the amount of water needed to fill that chasm up to the top is 35,000 gallons. (Almost 10 hours of work for our industrious cleric/druid duo!) Note that, even so, only the chasm itself is full at this point (and note too that this also assumes that no water is seeping into the ground itself, an assumption that I'm pretty sure is bumpkis) - the mites are only inconvenienced inasmuch as they have to deal with the water flowing past them on its way down to the bottom of their lair. I don't particularly want to figure out how much time it would actually take to fuly flood out the Old Sycamore, but I'd say a bare minimum of several weeks.
This is not a winning plan.
And not to mention that the water created by Create Water only lasts 1 day, so if you need weeks to fill it as Carpy DM has said, it couldn't possibly work.
... Mending? ... Fix me? ... Please ...?
Director of Narrative
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Video reference of a 1,200 gallon aquarium.
(Ignore the weird music. I don't think that aquarium would even result in standing water if it was destroyed in that room.)
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If your players want to play the game that way make them do the math. Calculating the volume of a massive irregular shape is a pita. Add in the fact that that much surface area sucks up a good percentage of the flow before it even starts really filling. Then it has to fill an 80' long x 20 foot deep chasm before they are even bother the mites.
How many gallons would it take to fill the mite hole? How many gallons would the surrounding soil absorb first?
Just eyeballing it (I compared it to a 20x40 pool that averages 5' deep) the chasm (low point) appears to be something like 30,000 gallons. They couldn't even fill the chasm with 24 hours of solid flooding and at that point their originally created water goes away...
*And ninja'd by Carpy*
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So, to sum up, every time your players have an amazing idea to do something new and exciting with a spell do this:
A: Ask them what they want to do and how they think the spell can achieve it.
B:Ask them to reread the spell description.
C: Reread spell description yourself as well.
D: If your still unsure the spell may be one which requires you read the 'spells' section of the Core Rulebook (i.e. polymorph spells have a lengthy section there).
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They saw the fortress and instead of trying to infiltrate themselves, they decide on a full on assault. Of course to do this they want a catapult and who happens to have a catapult that owes them a big favor... and hates the Stag Lord. Why it's Olegg, the PCs main contact. What's that you say? Olegg's catapults are busted? But wait, doesn't the cleric have the MENDING cantrip? Why yes, yes she does.
So they fixed the catapult and brought it into the forest. I laughed and told them the catapult got stuck, because it isn't a forest meant for bringing siege weapons through. So what do my clever players do? Break the catapult up...
Well -- a second level spell (Make Whole) to fix the catapult would have worked - though it might need the spell cast twice, depending on how broken up it was.
Mind you, a single second level Warp Wood spell opens the gate in two shakes of a lamb's tail, too -- though the range on that spell is very short indeed. Point is, no need for catapults at all. No need to feel that the players were somehow "breaking" the game, either. I think they were dealing with things creatively -- and there's nothing wrong with that.
Hell, a first level spell like Vanish from the APG gets the Wizard in the Stag Lord's fort without much trouble. (What to do once a spell that short wears off? Different story.)
Seeing as your players thought they were ready for the Stag Lord, they probably were at least third level already. While I give them some bonus for creativity in dealing with the catapult, mending wasn't what was needed (they were close though). But as a whole number of other utility spells within their power level could have accomplished the same goal -- does it matter?
When it gets right down to it? Probably not. If your players are engaged -- having fun -- and thinking of interesting ways to deal with the tactical problems presented in the game, that's all a GM can really ask for.
If I recall, mending in Pathfinder can only repair items that weigh up to 1 pound/level; this essentially means that the only way to repair the thing is through natural skill checks and the like.
As for flooding out the mites, that's going to be a bit hard to pull off, to say the least. 1200 gallons is roughly enough to fill a single 5' cube with water, and that's assuming you throw it all down at once. Dirt is amazingly absorbent and the caves underneath the thing are not slouch in size. The entrance leads into a 40' long tunnel before touching the first two rooms. You've made the upper level muddy at best.
+1 (along with all the posts that have similar statements)
@Blademaster0812: your assumptions on the cantrips are flawed :)
I started to get annoyed with some of my players abusing cantrips/orisons, so I put a 20 times per day cap on all cantrips, So they can cast thier cantrips 20 times each per day before they stop working. It makes it so that they are still useful, but this crap about spamming it over and over for free and getting redicoulous benefits out of it stops right there.
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I started to get annoyed with some of my players abusing cantrips/orisons, so I put a 20 times per day cap on all cantrips, So they can cast thier cantrips 20 times each per day before they stop working. It makes it so that they are still useful, but this crap about spamming it over and over for free and getting redicoulous benefits out of it stops right there.
What ridiculous benefits are you on about ?
One guy would cast resistance every minute of everyday, and then he would cast guidance aswell just incase he had to do a perception check.
It was more the rp element then anything.
I've found unlimited cantrips to be more of an annoyance to versimilitude than being overpowered. I've limited them to 3 + primary casting modifier each day.
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One guy would cast resistance every minute of everyday, and then he would cast guidance aswell just incase he had to do a perception check.
It was more the rp element then anything.
I can see it while wading through a dungeon where you expect combat at any moment and casting cantrips at each door or chamber, but during the day in general IS ridiculous.
Rather than limit the number of times a cantrip can be cast, I'd just point out that by renewing the cantrip through the day he has to use up 10% of his day just casting spells. To illustrate just how difficult that would be I'd have the player have to renew the spell in real life for an hour and see if he could manage it, tracking every minute and "casting" for 6 seconds of every minute.
Also, when it came time for him to make a Perception check, or any other skill use, I'd probably have him roll at a -2 penalty for being distracted, concentrating on timing his spell, rather than paying attention to what is going on around him.
When he is in the bar I'd have patrons give the stink eye for constantly casting spells, figuring he's up to no good, probably pick a fight with him. Merchants would throw him out the door figuring he's casting some spell on them. He'd probably end up in jail before long.
I'd let him do it if he REALLY wanted to, but there are consequences for every action. Just think about what the consequences are and make him pay.
It takes 7.48 gallons of water to fill 1 cubic foot. It would take a very long to flood anything. I would only change Create Water to a 1st level spell in a desert type setting or some how de-power the spell.
So I just finished running book 1 of Kingmaker and while a good time was had by all, there are some holes in the design of the campaign.
Neither of those work, and the second one isn't a problem at all.
The first, as already mentioned, doesn't create even remotely close to enough water to matter, especially considering that sycamores are found in wetlands in the first place.
The second doesn't work because of weight restrictions (catapults are heavy) and it's no big deal even if it DID work. Light catapults only do 4d6 damage and it's basically impossible to aim them at individual targets in a fortress. Not to mention that there's no way to set up anywhere close to maximum range from the Stag Lord's fort.
The cantrip that annoys me most is detect magic. I've had players casting it to check for magic traps every 5 feet they go. Take 20 on Perception for seaching for traps, cast detect magic to check for magic traps, move 5 feet, rinse and repeat. Also constantly spamming detect magic to find invisible stuff, illusions, magic traps, and whatnot seems too easy for me.
I'm considering limiting access to cantrips/orisons, too, in upcoming campaigns, as the GM of the Council of Thieves campaign I play in has done. He limits us to a fixed 7 0-level spell slots per day (however he allows them as swift actions). I'm thinking of 3 + casting attribute modifier limit, but I might consider that per selected cantrip, not for all of them. Not sure yet. But unlimited access seems a bit too much in several cases.
My problem with cantrips has been guidance, because any time I have someone make a skill check and they fail (especially perception), one of the casters says he cast guidance; as if it has retroactive power. They never, never cast the spell before a check is made. The only way it could just be assumed to be present because of the way they handle it is by assuming the spellcaster is constantly mumbling and poking everyone unless they're in the middle of combat.
The annoying part is that the vast majority of the time, it's better just to use Aid Another for the skill or attack bonus.
The cantrip that annoys me most is detect magic. I've had players casting it to check for magic traps every 5 feet they go. Take 20 on Perception for seaching for traps, cast detect magic to check for magic traps, move 5 feet, rinse and repeat. Also constantly spamming detect magic to find invisible stuff, illusions, magic traps, and whatnot seems too easy for me.
I'm considering limiting access to cantrips/orisons, too, in upcoming campaigns, as the GM of the Council of Thieves campaign I play in has done. He limits us to a fixed 7 0-level spell slots per day (however he allows them as swift actions). I'm thinking of 3 + casting attribute modifier limit, but I might consider that per selected cantrip, not for all of them. Not sure yet. But unlimited access seems a bit too much in several cases.
Keep in mind just how long it's going to take them to perform these repeated actions. Take 20 on Perception takes 2 minutes (20 rounds) of game time. Detect magic could be cast while others are searching, but that's still 2 minutes for every five feet of movement. It's going to take forever to get anywhere. Meanwhile, the denizens of the dungeon/castle/temple/wherever have tons of time to set up ambushes and otherwise make plans or gang up on the PCs.
The cantrip that annoys me most is detect magic. I've had players casting it to check for magic traps every 5 feet they go. Take 20 on Perception for seaching for traps, cast detect magic to check for magic traps, move 5 feet, rinse and repeat. Also constantly spamming detect magic to find invisible stuff, illusions, magic traps, and whatnot seems too easy for me.
The part where they Take 20 and move five feet at a time isn't going to go away if detect magic isn't used. As for using the spell to find magic traps, the spell covers a 60' cone. This usually means means you only need to use it once for three rounds to cover an entire room or rather long hallway.
Come to think of it, if they have a rogue using Take 20 on the search, he's going to find the magic traps anyway; which makes the spell superfluous for that purpose. It's terrible for finding anything in combat time because of the three round delay.
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The cantrip that annoys me most is detect magic. I've had players casting it to check for magic traps every 5 feet they go. Take 20 on Perception for seaching for traps, cast detect magic to check for magic traps, move 5 feet, rinse and repeat. Also constantly spamming detect magic to find invisible stuff, illusions, magic traps, and whatnot seems too easy for me.
It doesn't work like that in PathfinderRPG.
You can search everywhere you can see using a perception check, detect magic has a range too.
If your players are taking 5ft steps and repeating searches then they're repeating an action, I wouldn't even let them roll again, just adjust the distance modifiers for stuff at the rend of the room.
Tell them how those rules have changed and you and your players will probably both be happy (although that might not end their paranoia).
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Keep in mind just how long it's going to take them to perform these repeated actions. Take 20 on Perception takes 2 minutes (20 rounds) of game time.
That's 3.5, in Pathfinder Perception is a move action, so taking 20=10 rounds/1minute.
Is it unreasonable to spend one whole minute thoroughly searching a room?
No.
Thank goodness for those cool changes PathfinderRPG made to perception/search.
The cantrip that annoys me most is detect magic. I've had players casting it to check for magic traps every 5 feet they go. Take 20 on Perception for seaching for traps, cast detect magic to check for magic traps, move 5 feet, rinse and repeat.
You do know that taking 20 requires 20x the length of time that using the same skill normally takes, right?
So taking 20 to find traps every 5' is amazingly time-consuming, literally taking a whole minute to move 5'.
You actually have players doing this? If so, I suggest, for a good time, try having them walk out your front door and go to the nearest park, or store, or something, moving 5' every minute. Bring your dice along so you can keep playing while you go (might as well do somehthing for each of those minute-long breaks). See how long it takes you to get anywhere at that rate.
Turtles and sloths and octagenarians with walkers will be racing past you at break-neck speed, comparatively.
Are you sure you have players really taking 20 every five feet, or did you just think of it and you are worried that they might start doing it?
Also constantly spamming detect magic to find invisible stuff, illusions, magic traps, and whatnot seems too easy for me.
Easy enough. Look at the spell Magic Aura. Someone goes invisible, then drops Magic Aura on themselves and presto, their trick doesn't work.
An illusion with Magic Aura on it won't be detected and your PCs will blunder into all kinds of danger because they relied on a spell that can be easily foiled rather than relying on their brains.
Heck, you don't even need Magic Aura to hide illusions or magical traps. Just put a whole bunch of other illusions or magical crap all over the room. The guy casting the Detect Magic will be overwhelmed with the possibilities.
In fact, as the DM, make a list of everything that is magical in the room. Make sure this list is loooooong. Include a magical trap or three. Now when your player casts Detct Magic in there, start reading your list at a normal reading speed: a chair, a spoon, the left leg of that table, another chair, the rug, a lamp, another chair, a fork, a candle, another spoon, the right leg of this other table, another spoon, a goblet, a knife, another goblet, another candle, a book, etc., etc., etc. Put a hundred things on this list. Let your playres spend literally hours of their own real life sorting it all out.
Remember, Arcane Mark is permanent and can be used unlimited times per day. A 1st level wizard or sorcerer can cast this all day long, making everything in his dungeon magical if he wants to. And since he can also cast Detect Magic, he knows that enemies can find all his traps and illusions way too easily, so he would be highly motivated to cast a few thousand Arcane Marks all over the place to hide them.
I'm considering limiting access to cantrips/orisons, too, in upcoming campaigns, as the GM of the Council of Thieves campaign I play in has done. He limits us to a fixed 7 0-level spell slots per day (however he allows them as swift actions). I'm thinking of 3 + casting attribute modifier limit, but I might consider that per selected cantrip, not for all of them. Not sure yet. But unlimited access seems a bit too much in several cases.
Your game, your choice, but these "problems" you seem to have aren't really as much of a problem as you think they are.
Is it unreasonable to spend one whole minute thoroughly searching a room?
Wouldn't that be 1 minute to thoroughly search a 5' x 5' square, not a room?
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Yeah... mending and create water aren't nearly the world-enders that overly-creative PCs might think they are.
Holy crap this thread got a LOT of responses. None of my threads get that much love. Well thanks for all the feedback. I need to keep this stuff in mind next time my players decide to get too creative.
EDIT: I especially thank James Jacob for taking time out of his busy day to post.
Keep in mind just how long it's going to take them to perform these repeated actions. Take 20 on Perception takes 2 minutes (20 rounds) of game time.That's 3.5, in Pathfinder Perception is a move action, so taking 20=10 rounds/1minute.
Is it unreasonable to spend one whole minute thoroughly searching a room?
No.
Thank goodness for those cool changes PathfinderRPG made to perception/search.
It's not unreasonable at all. My point is simply that if they are going to repeat it every 5 feet (presumably to avoid that -1 penalty for every ten feet of distance), it's going to add up to a very long time for very little gain. And they're still spending more time on the searching than on the repeated cantrips, so endless detect magic really isn't that big a game breaker.
I had missed the change to a move action though. Thanks for pointing that out!
The cantrip that annoys me most is detect magic. I've had players casting it to check for magic traps every 5 feet they go. Take 20 on Perception for seaching for traps, cast detect magic to check for magic traps, move 5 feet, rinse and repeat.You do know that taking 20 requires 20x the length of time that using the same skill normally takes, right?
So taking 20 to find traps every 5' is amazingly time-consuming, literally taking a whole minute to move 5'.
I certainly know that Take 20 takes 20 times the time, yes. However it seems to be true that it's no longer the case that a single Perception check is made on a 5' by 5' space base, at least I can find nothing about that in the description of the Perception skill.
You actually have players doing this? If so, I suggest, for a good time, try having them walk out your front door and go to the nearest park, or store, or something, moving 5' every minute. Bring your dice along so you can keep playing while you go (might as well do somehthing for each of those minute-long breaks). See how long it takes you to get anywhere at that rate.
They don't do it constantly, just as a precaution in one dungeon which seemed to have more traps than usual. It was just an example, but it was still annoying.
Also constantly spamming detect magic to find invisible stuff, illusions, magic traps, and whatnot seems too easy for me.
An illusion with Magic Aura on it won't be detected and your PCs will blunder into all kinds of danger because they relied on a spell that can be easily foiled rather than relying on their brains.
Heck, you don't even need Magic Aura to hide illusions or magical traps. Just put a whole bunch of other illusions or magical crap all over the room. The guy casting the Detect Magic will be overwhelmed with the possibilities.
Easy enough. Look at the spell Magic Aura. Someone goes invisible, then drops Magic Aura on themselves and presto, their trick doesn't work.
I really don't want to adjust adventures all the time to take that into account. Also, you can't cast magic aura on an illusion. You can cast it onto an object, but not at an object that doesn't actually exist. There's no (realistic) way to prevent someone from immediately finding and pinpointing the single illusionary wall in a huge room with just a single casting of detect magic, just as an example.
Overwhelming doesn't work, just concentrate 3 rounds, and you can finely sort out all magic auras in your 60' cone.
In fact, as the DM, make a list of everything that is magical in the room. Make sure this list is loooooong. Include a magical trap or three. Now when your player casts Detct Magic in there, start reading your list at a normal reading speed: a chair, a spoon, the left leg of that table, another chair, the rug, a lamp, another chair, a fork, a candle, another spoon, the right leg of this other table, another spoon, a goblet, a knife, another goblet, another candle, a book, etc., etc., etc. Put a hundred things on this list. Let your playres spend literally hours of their own real life sorting it all out.Again, far too much work to put into all possible locations, and not really justifiable in-story. Breaks suspension of disbelief. And it would be my time spent too, and I really don't care for that.
Remember, Arcane Mark is permanent and can be used unlimited times per day. A 1st level wizard or sorcerer can cast this all day long, making everything in his dungeon magical if he wants to. And since he can also cast Detect Magic, he knows that enemies can find all his traps and illusions way too easily, so he would be highly motivated to cast a few thousand Arcane Marks all over the place to hide them.Arcane mark shows up as what it is when using detect magic ("causes it to glow and be visible") and can easily be discarded then as relevant by the detecting party. No help there.
All that unlimited cantrips requires is for the DM to change his/her tactics. The Game has changed. The DM has to change with it (or not, if you prefer to houserule).
Detect Magic (and Create Water) seem to cause most of the perceived problems. If your players are spamming detect magic, then incorporate detect magic INTO the trap as a trigger. When the emanation passes over the trigger, the trap activates. It won't take long for your players to realize that spamming det. magic can be a bad idea. Also don't forget that verbal components must be spoken in clear and strong voice. So, anyone (or any thing) within earshot is going to know that the heroes are on their way.
JJ is correct. Unlimited cantrips is absolutely not the 'game breaking' change that some seem to assume it is. It's just a change. Embrace it.
If anything, characters spamming cantrips opens up far more opportunities for the DM than it closes.
So I just finished running book 1 of Kingmaker and while a good time was had by all, there are some holes in the design of the campaign.
**SPOILER ALERTS**
If you haven't finished or played Book 1 of Kingmaker and want to HIT THE BACK BUTTON NOW.No seriously....
No? Still here? Okay then.
There are two major areas in which there was a hole in the design of the campaign which would have allowed my players to exploit a cantrip to pretty much defeat a huge section of the book. I did not allow either of these because damn it, they were major plot points.
The first time was at the Old Sycamore. My players found the Old Sycamore and waited for the daytime (when the mites were sleeping). Then they decided that with a 3rd level druid and a cleric with CREATE WATER prepared that they would flood them out. Between the two of them they could make a gallon a second or 60 gallons in a minute, 1200 gallons in an hour. When the mites left the flooding hole they would be bottlenecked and would be killed one by one. Sadly I could not think of a reason why they realistically couldn't do this so I just had to DM Hammer the idea. Its not something I like doing (it was the first time I had to do it so blatantly) but I wasn't going to let them get all that XP for practically no work. So I gave them some bonus XP for creativity and sent them on their way.
The second part is with the Stag Lord. They saw the fortress and instead of trying to infiltrate themselves, they decide on a full on assault. Of course to do this they want a catapult and who happens to have a catapult that owes them a big favor and hates the Stag Lord. Why it's Olegg, the PCs main contact. What's that you say? Olegg's catapults are busted? But wait, doesn't the cleric have the MENDING cantrip? Why yes, yes she does.
So they fixed the catapult and brought it into the forest. I laughed and told them the catapult got stuck, because it isn't a forest meant for bringing siege weapons through. So what do my clever players do? Break the catapult up...
Just to add something to your catapult problem, the catapults were never repaired when the fort was restored. The wodden parts are most likely far to rotten to hold the energy needed, not to mention the ropes and other stuff.
IMO that and the fact that you need all the parts of the object, negate the spells effects.
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All that unlimited cantrips requires is for the DM to change his/her tactics. The Game has changed. The DM has to change with it (or not, if you prefer to houserule).
Detect Magic (and Create Water) seem to cause most of the perceived problems. If your players are spamming detect magic, then incorporate detect magic INTO the trap as a trigger. When the emanation passes over the trigger, the trap activates. It won't take long for your players to realize that spamming det. magic can be a bad idea. Also don't forget that verbal components must be spoken in clear and strong voice. So, anyone (or any thing) within earshot is going to know that the heroes are on their way.
JJ is correct. Unlimited cantrips is absolutely not the 'game breaking' change that some seem to assume it is. It's just a change. Embrace it.
If anything, characters spamming cantrips opens up far more opportunities for the DM than it closes.
Well I think after reading all the feedback my issue was that for the create water, I trusted the table's dedicated math person too much. He was the one who INSISTED that it would work and since he was a chem major now computer science, I trusted his math skills. As for mending, that was pure DMing stupidity on my part. I should have read the spell closer.
On the catapults I allowed the players to use mending to fix the metal parts of the catapults (getting the rust off and what not) but the wood was too rotten for use. This saved them from having to go to town to get the metal parts, but they needed to cut down some trees to actually rebuild the catapults, and needed knowledge skills to make them right.
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Well I think after reading all the feedback my issue was that for the create water, I trusted the table's dedicated math person too much. He was the one who INSISTED that it would work and since he was a chem major now computer science, I trusted his math skills. As for mending, that was pure DMing stupidity on my part. I should have read the spell closer.All that unlimited cantrips requires is for the DM to change his/her tactics. The Game has changed. The DM has to change with it (or not, if you prefer to houserule).
Detect Magic (and Create Water) seem to cause most of the perceived problems. If your players are spamming detect magic, then incorporate detect magic INTO the trap as a trigger. When the emanation passes over the trigger, the trap activates. It won't take long for your players to realize that spamming det. magic can be a bad idea. Also don't forget that verbal components must be spoken in clear and strong voice. So, anyone (or any thing) within earshot is going to know that the heroes are on their way.
JJ is correct. Unlimited cantrips is absolutely not the 'game breaking' change that some seem to assume it is. It's just a change. Embrace it.
If anything, characters spamming cantrips opens up far more opportunities for the DM than it closes.
That happens sometimes. You can praise your players for ingenuity while kindly pointing them out how the spells really work. This way, no hurt feelings :)
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The cantrip that annoys me most is detect magic. I've had players casting it to check for magic traps every 5 feet they go. Take 20 on Perception for seaching for traps, cast detect magic to check for magic traps, move 5 feet, rinse and repeat. Also constantly spamming detect magic to find invisible stuff, illusions, magic traps, and whatnot seems too easy for me.
I'm considering limiting access to cantrips/orisons, too, in upcoming campaigns, as the GM of the Council of Thieves campaign I play in has done. He limits us to a fixed 7 0-level spell slots per day (however he allows them as swift actions). I'm thinking of 3 + casting attribute modifier limit, but I might consider that per selected cantrip, not for all of them. Not sure yet. But unlimited access seems a bit too much in several cases.
I didn't think you could take 20 to search for traps because there is a penalty for failure. Taking 20 implies that you fail several times before you find the trap. IMO, taking 20 to find a trap means they are purposefully setting off any traps that might be present as a method to "find" the trap.
In 2nd ed. they had a "dungeon speed" that meant unless otherwise stated it was assumed the characters were taking their time to be cautious and on the look out for traps. If the PCs were in danger of setting off a trap, the DM would roll to see if anyone noticed the trap before it was set off. I don't know if PF encourages this, but it does speed up play.
Yeah... mending and create water aren't nearly the world-enders that overly-creative PCs might think they are.
Or histrionic DMs, rather.
just a thought would this not be more suited to the kingmaker forum ?
It's not really about Kingmaker, so no.
I didn't think you could take 20 to search for traps because there is a penalty for failure. Taking 20 implies that you fail several times before you find the trap. IMO, taking 20 to find a trap means they are purposefully setting off any traps that might be present as a method to "find" the trap.
There's no penalty for failure in finding a trap - the trap doesn't go off because you didn't see it, it only goes off if you do whatever is necessary to trigger it (like stepping in the square where the pressure plate is or something). You don't have to be standing on the pressure plate to see it with perception.
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Also, isn't there a big pit thingy at the bottum of the mite's caves? If you poured water it would just keep flowing down...
Plus... The GM is the final say. It's the GM's job to interperate rules and keep the game fun. The water thing obviously wouldn't work, but let's say it did... well good for the players thinking up something creative... they thought of a interesting solution for the encounter... however...
take a muddy wetlands cave and flood it... well good luck finding any treasure inside... so yes the characters found a second path here... but it cost them some treasure.. I would say the ring is gone for good now...
Still not happy... we'll you're the GM. Just because you're using a book, doesn't mean you need to follow everything perfectly...
players start floating mite's home... mite's wake... some mites come up the exit and use ranged attacks... keeping away enough to not get killed... they are just trying to keep the pcs distracted...
enter GM. there is a secret back tunnel that opens up just behind the pcs. the pcs are now flanked by the mites.
I didn't think you could take 20 to search for traps because there is a penalty for failure. Taking 20 implies that you fail several times before you find the trap. IMO, taking 20 to find a trap means they are purposefully setting off any traps that might be present as a method to "find" the trap.
Yeah not finding a trap doesn't mean setting it off. False positives are also failures you know. Disable Device is what sets off traps. Being extra cautious and double checking EVERYTHING to be sure that every part isn't a trap just makes sense and is what taking 20 would be in this case.
False positives would be that one brick that is a little bit out -- you spend five minutes just to realize it was the mason doing a bad job. The door jab has a knot in it -- you spend three minutes making sure it isn't a button or exit for an arrow trap -- these are failures -- you thought a trap was there, but it really wasn't.
It's not really about Kingmaker, so no.
depends if you consider the issue was kingmaker was written without considering existing contrips or if cantrips need an overhaul.
personally I think the former, cantrips are very weak magic the guy wrote the adventures could have included a small text about how certain cantrips can't be used to overcome these problems and given a few RP explantians why not,
more a kingmaker problem than any real problem with cantrips.
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Oh and if your PCs are spending too long doing something you think ruins the game.. give them a reason to move faster...
the dungeon is now floating with lava...
while casting create water... they've attracted a thirsty troll...
the goal isn't to blast the PCs for being creative, but prevent them from killing the game by making it too easy...
but remember they should be rewarded in some way if they think of some really creative way of solving something.
now if the pc's solution for everything is flood the room.. well that's when the water elementals get summoned.
Kingmaker was made after the new rules were out so they already knew about unlimited cantrips.
Most people overstate the "issue" though or overblow just how useful cantrips are.
depends if you consider the issue was kingmaker was written without considering existing contrips or if cantrips need an overhaul.
personally I think the former, cantrips are very weak magic the guy wrote the adventures could have included a small text about how certain cantrips can't be used to overcome these problems and given a few RP explantians why not,
more a kingmaker problem than any real problem with cantrips.
I disagree that the designer/author/editor of a particular AP or module or adventure or whatever should spend valuable time and effort anticipating every possible contingency that potential players of the module might encounter and then chew up valuable space in the text to address every eventuality. In my opinion the DM needs to be able to jump in there and adjudicate those very situations that their players come up with and, as the original poster has indicated, this thread has given him some things to think about regarding cantrips.
-Brooks