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I am going to probably start a Kingmaker game in a few months. I bought the APG a few days ago and wonder what things in it rules wise I would need to allow or disallow. First off I do not want to see the word "broken" in any shape or form. No synonyms, verbs pronouns or anyting along " at my game this would be consider broken"
Not "it's broken because it allows a bonus higher than +1"
or
"It's too good an ability to give to the players"
or
"It allows something thtat as a DM I cannot control"
Or anything similar along those liness. Or you will be reported to the mods. It already happen once in a recent theread I amde and I do not want to see it in this one.
Can you give an example of what you would like to see? Given your examples of what you don't want, I'm not sure what you do want.
I am going to probably start a Kingmaker game in a few months. I bought the APG a few days ago and wonder what things in it rules wise I would need to allow or disallow. First off I do not want to see the word "broken" in any shape or form. No synonyms, verbs pronouns or anyting along " at my game this would be consider broken"
Not "it's broken because it allows a bonus higher than +1"
or
"It's too good an ability to give to the players"
or
"It allows something that as a DM I cannot control"Or anything similar along those lines. Or you will be reported to the mods. It already happen once in a recent thread I made and I do not want to see it in this one.
Basically you want watch out for feat/spell/ect X because it can cause you problems as a DM by doing this. <--My guess.
I think the last line is inappropriate by the way. Saying I can't control X as a DM does not mean it I am screaming" OMG it is over 9000 and it uber-rulez", but if a decent example is provided as to why an ability may be too good it could give you something to look out for. This could be especially true if the DM in question has a style similar to your own.
The way your post is written sounds like you don't want any complaints, but at the same time you want a warning. You may have to give an example if the last line that you disallowed is not acceptable.
This is your friendly neighborhood demi-lich.
Witch+Inquisitor gave me problems in my kingmaker game. Witch with slumber hex, ruined the troll encounter the in second book, and I don't mean one troll, I mean 12-15 trolls spread apart. Inquisitor is brutal (especially ranged).
Spells, the pit spells have become a neusance.
There was an annoyingly long thread about this particular feat and the "Cheater of Mystra" (ps. I am sure if you use the Search function or just look around, you can easily find it). The main issue being how the feat functions. However, some developers did weigh in on the thread though to offer some suggestions.
The feat is intended to work only with:
-Area Effect Spells only are valid. Effect spells that affect an area are not, nor are targeted spell that affect targets within a certain distance of one another. Examples: Fireball is valid, while Confusion and Web are not.
-that it only work on Area Spells with an immediate duration. Otherwise you get Entangle spells where certain people just ignore the effects. So again, Fireball is valid, whereas Anti-magic Field is not. AMF is one of the big "Cheater of Mystra" issues from FR 3.5 apparently.
YMMV, the feat could be used as is of however the DM sees fit, but the first point I make is what SKR and Jason Nelson stated the wording means specifically. The second is a proposed fix by Jason Nelson to the possible abuses of this feat, specifically AMF, amongst others. Hope that helps.
Check out Human alternate class bonuses. Then check out the one for Sorcerer.
I am going to probably start a Kingmaker game in a few months. I bought the APG a few days ago and wonder what things in it rules wise I would need to allow or disallow. First off I do not want to see the word "broken" in any shape or form. No synonyms, verbs pronouns or anyting along " at my game this would be consider broken"
I would generally disallow the APG, but allow things on a case-by-case basis.
"Come and Get me" as barbarian rage power ruined many a good encounter for me.. Allowing the barbarian to counter-attack (first!) every time he is hit (and his damage goes through first at his highest bonus) meant a damage output of 150 damage on avarage during his turn and another 150-200 outside his own turn. All this in exchange for a +4 to hit and +4 damage by the enemy attacking him.
Even brutal opponents with hitpoints (boosted) of 200-300-400 doen't last more than 2-3 rounds.
I follow Malaclypse on this one and for all my future story-arcs/campaigs: disallow the APG and allow stuff on a case-by-case, mostly as rewards and in exchange for influence points (my own system)
"Come and Get me" as barbarian rage power ruined many a good encounter for me.. Allowing the barbarian to counter-attack (first!) every time he is hit (and his damage goes through first at his highest bonus) meant a damage output of 150 damage on avarage during his turn and another 150-200 outside his own turn. All this in exchange for a +4 to hit and +4 damage by the enemy attacking him.
Even brutal opponents with hitpoints (boosted) of 200-300-400 doen't last more than 2-3 rounds.
I follow Malaclypse on this one and for all my future story-arcs/campaigs: disallow the APG and allow stuff on a case-by-case, mostly as rewards and in exchange for influence points (my own system)
Try to have your encounter with 10 goblins and the main mook. Not only will the "Come and Get me" barbarian run out of attacks of opportunity - but the tiny attacks of the goblins actually start to become meaningful.
I don't get this "come and get me" issue. If abused, soon or later the barbarian is gonna die...
Excuse my ignorance. How can a Barbarian dish 150 Hit-point in an Attack of Opportunity?
He can't. At least not without some serious, Mr-Welch-is-no-longer-allowed-to-do stuff going on. But with combat reflexes, the number of AoOs is increased. And when you then get an easy way to make AoOs, you can seriously overcharge your damage potential.
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Reading the rule, it stats that the barbarian doesn't need to be hit to activate the AoO, the attack triggers it.
Now. Each attack-roll from the same foe is considered an attack in order to activate this power? If each roll triggers the attack, then I get the point from Phillip.
And, of course, it is still limited by the dexterity of the barbarian.
And, of course, it is still limited by the dexterity of the barbarian.
This. Now not only do Barbarians need high Strength and Constitution, they need high Dex. Considering how easily it is for a Barbarian to annihilate an enemy who's full attacking them anyway, I don't see why Come And Get It is a big deal when it makes them 3-attribute MAD.
Check out Human alternate class bonuses. Then check out the one for Sorcerer.
Not just the sorcerer but all spell casters. The alternative favored class bonus does the same thing for all casters though the biggest impact is on Spontaneous casters. The bonus doesn't really impact game play that much though. There are other favored class bonuses for other classes that in my opinion are equally good.
I agree with another poster who suggested that you only allow things from the APG on a case-by-case basis. I'd wait for a player to ask what's desired, review it, and if you're comfortable with it, then let it in. Attempting to figure it all out beforehand might be a frustrating experience.
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I think the last line is inappropriate by the way. Saying I can't control X as a DM does not mean it I am screaming" OMG it is over 9000 and it uber-rulez", but if a decent example is provided as to why an ability may be too good it could give you something to look out for. This could be especially true if the DM in question has a style similar to your own.
The way your post is written sounds like you don't want any complaints, but at the same time you want a warning. You may have to give an example if the last line that you disallowed is not acceptable.
How am I being unfair? I wanted a thread that actually listed problems with the APG. Not another round of "don;t use this it's broken" or "this is too good of an ability it's broken". Without given any reason beyond that they think it is too good. Even after I asked in my BO9S thread not to do tell me that the book was broken someone did anyway. I am pretty up front with what I want to see in my threads. You don't have to post in it. No one is forcing you to do so.
I prefer to take a different stance, first off I would like to say that I enjoy this book. I have taken a stance that it is open to my players, but if they are going to munchkin or power game the situation they have to let me know what they feel will be providing this and what it allows them to do, allowing me to make rulings on effects before hand, and the ability that if I don't like that setup to ask them not to do that. Usually I get a very good reaction out of my players.
I could be wrong Memorax, but I think what you're asking for is real examples of issues, not simple statements or theoretical issues.
Keep an eye out for the new metamagic feats (especially in metamagic rod form). Some of them are quite powerful, or at least much better than the metamagic feats in the core book.
- Reach Spell
- Persistent Spell
- Bouncing Spell (maybe)
- Dazing Spell
- Selective Spell (the rod is very cheap)
The only problem my game has run into is from the core rulebook...my players decided to buy siege weapons and just lay siege to lairs and such instead of battling monsters....then the trolls got siege weapons...it was amusing to say the least, with many "flying" kobolds.
From what I've seen so far I like the Hero Point system.
I think that the alternate Favored Class bonuses are a good idea but really have to be looked at on an individual basis. Some seem more powerful then others, like the bonus spell per level. Others seem kind of weak, like a Halfling Paladin's 1/2 HP for Lay on Hands per level. Then again, with the base system, I always go with the +1 SP rather then +1 HP, so I don't think the system is perfectly balanced to begin with.
The only problem my game has run into is from the core rulebook...my players decided to buy siege weapons and just lay siege to lairs and such instead of battling monsters....then the trolls got siege weapons...it was amusing to say the least, with many "flying" kobolds.
sir I salute your treatment of the endangered species of Kobolds.
although yes issues can come up with siege weapons this is easily countered by pointing out to the party of difficulty of transporting them, and the fact that enchanting siege ammunition does not follow standard ammunition rules, a ballista bolt counts as a spear. :)
In general I would say some abilities have room for abuse such as the rage power for the barbarian mentioned earlier, but simple solutions are available to the craft GM, I believe someone mentioned goblin minions and what not, also should be checked what level the party is in order to decide what kind of mooks you would like to use.
They made it easier for rogues to get sneak attack at range. Its not overpowered or anything, but something I think should be known.
Witch+Inquisitor gave me problems in my kingmaker game. Witch with slumber hex, ruined the troll encounter the in second book, and I don't mean one troll, I mean 12-15 trolls spread apart. Inquisitor is brutal (especially ranged).
Spells, the pit spells have become a neusance.
USE SPOILERS DUDE! YOU'VE RUINED EVERYTHING FOR ME! ARGH! NERD RAGE!
This. Now not only do Barbarians need high Strength and Constitution, they need high Dex. Considering how easily it is for a Barbarian to annihilate an enemy who's full attacking them anyway, I don't see why Come And Get It is a big deal when it makes them 3-attribute MAD.
And, of course, it is still limited by the dexterity of the barbarian.
Shouldn't barbarians have a good Dexterity anyways since they can't wear heavy armors?
If you are playing or going to play this then STAY OUT of the Kingmaker forum. That is why I am staying out of the Serpent's Skull forum, I will be playing it.
-- david
Papa.DRB
USE SPOILERS DUDE! YOU'VE RUINED EVERYTHING FOR ME! ARGH! NERD RAGE!
+1 @ Papa-DRB
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If you are playing or going to play this then STAY OUT of the Kingmaker forum. That is why I am staying out of the Serpent's Skull forum, I will be playing it.
-- david
Papa.DRBUSE SPOILERS DUDE! YOU'VE RUINED EVERYTHING FOR ME! ARGH! NERD RAGE!
In his defense, when you see this topic on the messageboard widget on the front page there is no way to tell this is from the Kingmaker forum. I thought this was a general discussion topic about the APG until I saw the spoilery post and then checked the top of the page to see where I was.
That said, it's a good lesson to check the forum once you've clicked on the topic I guess...
I'm still convinced there's a typo in the Furious Focus feat and the BAB requirement should be higher than +1. At low levels, the feat completely revokes the drawback to Power Attack, making it far superior to any other choice.
If you are playing or going to play this then STAY OUT of the Kingmaker forum. That is why I am staying out of the Serpent's Skull forum, I will be playing it.
-- david
Papa.DRBUSE SPOILERS DUDE! YOU'VE RUINED EVERYTHING FOR ME! ARGH! NERD RAGE!
This topic was NOT originally in the Kingmaker section of the boards, and in fact should not be in the Kingmaker section of the boards because it is not about Kingmaker. It's about the APG. Furthermore, the board rules are to use spoiler blocks unless the topic is specifically labeled as a spoiler topic, even within the modules/adventure paths sections of the boards.
Shouldn't barbarians have a good Dexterity anyways since they can't wear heavy armors?
Not generally, no. Barbarians have pretty cruddy AC since they don't use shields, don't have access to heavy armor, and they get an AC penalty while using their primary class ability. The only thing Dex really does for Barbarians is raise Initiative.
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I'm still convinced there's a typo in the Furious Focus feat and the BAB requirement should be higher than +1. At low levels, the feat completely revokes the drawback to Power Attack, making it far superior to any other choice.
Don't know why you say that? It clearly implies you have to be making a full attack. So a 1st level Ftr uses power attack and with furious focus he doesn't have a penalty to his only attack in the round, but he's limited to a 5 foot step. Let him smoosh some mooks now and again, but if you're worried about it use some mobile enemies.
--Vrock Party Weekend
How am I being unfair? I wanted a thread that actually listed problems with the APG. Not another round of "don;t use this it's broken" or "this is too good of an ability it's broken". Without given any reason beyond that they think it is too good. Even after I asked in my BO9S thread not to do tell me that the book was broken someone did anyway. I am pretty up front with what I want to see in my threads. You don't have to post in it. No one is forcing you to do so.
I think the last line is inappropriate by the way. Saying I can't control X as a DM does not mean it I am screaming" OMG it is over 9000 and it uber-rulez", but if a decent example is provided as to why an ability may be too good it could give you something to look out for. This could be especially true if the DM in question has a style similar to your own.
The way your post is written sounds like you don't want any complaints, but at the same time you want a warning. You may have to give an example if the last line that you disallowed is not acceptable.
I said nothing about unfair. I was saying you are not being clear. I also specifically stated that I was asking about the 3rd line which was "It allows something thtat as a DM I cannot control". There is nothing wrong with that line as long as the poster says why he can not control it. That is why I asked for any example since the 3rd line and calling something broken are not even in the same ball park.
I also made my own interpretation of --> "Basically you want watch out for feat/spell/ect X because it can cause you problems as a DM by doing this...", which you did not even respond to with a yes or no.
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Summoner is a difficult class to work in at low levels(overpowers many more mooks than the average class with no drawbacks), but it levels out by the second book, though that could be because of the slight nerfs to the class.
Personal note: I love the APG and have used it to modify villains where possible to shake things up. I will be revising the caster in book 3 so that he can use those pit spells...it will be harder for the players, but it will add to the caster villain's mystique since none of the group has encountered the spell before.
Sorry about that and to answer your question yes.
I also made my own interpretation of --> "Basically you want watch out for feat/spell/ect X because it can cause you problems as a DM by doing this...", which you did not even respond to with a yes or no.
<Tries to hug Memorax.> Oh I have no arms, and I am surrounded by fire. I guess a simple, "we're cool", will have to do.
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<Tries to hug Memorax.> Oh I have no arms, and I am surrounded by fire. I guess a simple, "we're cool", will have to do.
That's okay I'm an infernal outsider. I eat flaming skulls for breakfest lol. No worries we are good. Would you happen to know another skull called Bob. Works for that meddling human wizard Harry Dresden.
My main reason for not wanting to see the word broken is that on another gaming site I got into a discussion with another person about the subject of a Barbarains DR/2 being broken under 3.5 rules.
The example he gave was that a first level Barbarain would smash through anything like Goblins and Kobolds. Since he could shrug off their damage. My response was to point out that they might at first try melee attacks than ranged mixed in when stuff like Thunderstones and/or Alchemist fire etc.
All he responded with was "It's broekn" over and over. When I got fed up and tried to bow gracefully out of the conversation he kept sending me PMs. Even when I amde it clear I was not interested in havong anymopre conversations with him. Eventually he got banned as he kept doing that to ther posters too.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Grayflame weapon property.
Yes, you need to be a CL 6 and need channel smite and align weapon, but it's only a +1 weapon ability, which sheds light as a torch, increases the weapon's enhancement bonus by +1, and deals and extra +1d6 damage (as per flame strike) to creatures hit. And, depending on if the wielder is good or evil, it deals extra damage to creatures of the wielder's opposite alignment. On top of that,if you're good, it's treated as good and silver (for overcoming demons/devils) and if you're evil, its considered evil and cold iron (for overcoming devas, etc.)
All of these abilities are activated as a swift action.
Its primary nicenesses are:
a. Beats DR/metal
b. Does extra damage vs. neutral (whether you're good or evil).
Those are two things it does that a holy/unholy weapon doesn't. If not for those, it would be much worse than only half as good as a holy/unholy weapon (which also gets DR/alignment beating and twice the damage bonus, but is always on). Plus, evulz can already stack Channel Smite with this (as can goods vs. undead).
I think the ability is good but not crazy. Bear in mind:
1. The wielder actually needs to use the channel energy power to activate it. If you don't channel energy into it, it does nothing.
2. It only lasts for 1 rd/d6 of channel energy.
3. It's arguably not really a double dip. Instead of doing a Channel Smite on your enemy (1 attack for Xd6 pos/neg damage, save for half), you channel the energy through the weapon (ambiguous as to whether you still get Channel Smite damage or not; FAQ question posted below) and you get 1d6 (no save) for 1 rd/Xd6 your channel would normally do.
FAQ QUESTION:
EDIT: Hmm, no FAQ flag here. I'll post it over in another forum I guess.
There's all sorts of things that may or may not be CRAZYPOWERFULWTFBBQKTHX in the APG. Let's focus on those things that are more powerful than baseline in Kingmaker, specifically.
I really don't see anything in the APG to be worried about.
All that's happening is some DM's are seeing things that they don't know how to deal with yet. Thumbs up to the players!
Remember the first time you had a focused Tripper? OMG that seemed so br***n [almost said it!] but after some time we all realized how to deal with it and now it's just one of many possible build quirks that players might choose but really isn't anything to be worried about.
The APG just introduces a load more potential DM headaches, but if you think about them for a bit and also consider using them for the bad guys then they aren't all that strong.
Also here is a great place to ask "how to deal with X" if you have issues with a particular ability/feat/rule.
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I really don't see anything in the APG to be worried about.
All that's happening is some DM's are seeing things that they don't know how to deal with yet. Thumbs up to the players!
Remember the first time you had a focused Tripper? OMG that seemed so br***n [almost said it!] but after some time we all realized how to deal with it and now it's just one of many possible build quirks that players might choose but really isn't anything to be worried about.
The APG just introduces a load more potential DM headaches, but if you think about them for a bit and also consider using them for the bad guys then they aren't all that strong.
Also here is a great place to ask "how to deal with X" if you have issues with a particular ability/feat/rule.
So infinate air walking is nothing to worry about? And quite frankly until they actually say how AMF works in a FAQ, selective spell WILL be quite a bit of a headache. Even without the AMF selective spell IS a bloody headache. Yeah the bad guys can use it...and then the party TPKs. Sirroco + selective spell is a no save I win button as in two rounds, your exhausted. The counter to this is to use one big massively stated monster...which gets chewed up anyways.
So infinate air walking is nothing to worry about?
Infinite airwalk at 20th level - when other members of the party have permanent Overland Flight, flying mounts, animal companions, or eidolons, and/or wings of their own - is indeed, nothing to worry about.
I really don't see anything in the APG to be worried about.
All that's happening is some DM's are seeing things that they don't know how to deal with yet. Thumbs up to the players!
Remember the first time you had a focused Tripper? OMG that seemed so br***n [almost said it!] but after some time we all realized how to deal with it and now it's just one of many possible build quirks that players might choose but really isn't anything to be worried about.
The APG just introduces a load more potential DM headaches, but if you think about them for a bit and also consider using them for the bad guys then they aren't all that strong.
Also here is a great place to ask "how to deal with X" if you have issues with a particular ability/feat/rule.
+1. I When nobody here can help with an issue then I might use "that" word.
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So infinate air walking is nothing to worry about?Infinite airwalk at 20th level - when other members of the party have permanent Overland Flight, flying mounts, animal companions, or eidolons, and/or wings of their own - is indeed, nothing to worry about.
The issue isn't the airwalking...it's the infinate part. That means a monk at level 20 can airwalk around the world in less then 6 seconds.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The issue isn't the airwalking...it's the infinate part. That means a monk at level 20 can airwalk around the world in less then 6 seconds.So infinate air walking is nothing to worry about?Infinite airwalk at 20th level - when other members of the party have permanent Overland Flight, flying mounts, animal companions, or eidolons, and/or wings of their own - is indeed, nothing to worry about.
A wizard can greater teleport to anywhere in the world in less than 6 seconds, WITH FIVE OTHER PEOPLE... at 15th level.
And doesn't need to worry about having to stop if there's a door in the way that needs to be opened (which requires the monk to stop moving and use a separate move action to open).
I agree with the troll: not a problem.
All that's happening is some DM's are seeing things that they don't know how to deal with yet. Thumbs up to the players!
That's the rub. With the APG available to everyone, some of our more obsessive players will have it memorized and come up with some incredibly powerful builds/combos/etc. very soon, testing the capability of any DM to keep things balanced and fun for everyone.
Bottom line for me as a GM is that no new material, including the APG, gets introduced until I've read it all carefully and am confident that I've got a good handle on it. Even with that, my players will still come up with stuff that surprises me, but at least I am better armed to deal with it. Don't let anybody introduce something you haven't read or don't have a good grasp of.
That said, I'm plowing through the APG for the second time now and intend to introduce it soon. I've seen some stuff I like and some that I don't, and we'll have an open conversatiomn amongst out group, with me as GM being final arbiter, about what we use and what we don't.