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In principle, I agree 100% with the feat starving of meleers for new manuvers.
Nevertheless, basing new moves on BAB could be tricky if we consider divine spellcasters. BAB +6 and +11 are behind the corner in that case.
I don't mind it if divine casters, rogues, and bards get some nifty combat options. If it scales off BAB, they'll all get the good stuff several levels after the full-BAB crowd, when it's less important, and they have to make an attack to take advantage of advanced maneuvers. For martial classes, this is not a penalty; they love making attacks. For spell casters, this kind of is a penalty because they can't cast a spell and make an attack, generally speaking.
There were five major things Tome of Battle maneuvers did.
1) Give you something to do that wasn't "I full attack." Most combat maneuvers like trip or grapple are inevitably the same thing as "I full attack." It just becomes "I full attack oh also trip." Compounding this is that they are either specialize or never use, with each taking three feats to really get use out of them. ToB maneuvers were usuable right out of the box as something to do. Perhaps ironically, despite the claims that ToB was "anime" or "weeaboo," it was by far more realistic. Western Europe had it's own combat and fighting styles with weapons, they weren't just unorganizedly smashing each other over and over again. The warblade is precisely what a fighter is supposed to be - he can specialize to a certain degree, but he's good with all types of weapons, not just one super-specialized one, and he has a variety of techniques and combat maneuvers he knows.
2) More mobility. Most of the strikes were standard actions, which meant you could actually move and do them in the same round. On top of that, there were several abilities that outright increased your movement to make fighting more dynamic and fluid rather then the bout of rockem sockem robots that melee combat in 3.5 was.
3) It raised the power level without raising the pure damage level. Damage is drastically overvalued in a lot of 3.5, when in reality HP is entirely black and white. You either have HP or you don't. The difference between Player 1 who has 400 HP left and Player 2 who has 1 HP left is a small one - both are still operating at full capacity. It's why battlefield control, save or dies, and monster summoning were so valuable. What you got in ToB maneuvers was not neccisarily pure damage (A pathfinder fighter archer can easily outdamage a warblade, and a super charger in 3.5 put warblade damage to shame). Instead, you got variety. Iron Heart Surge is both incredibly awesome, incredibly useful, and incredibly iconic. I'm pretty sure just about every martial hero that has ever existed in any form of media has at one point or another shrugged off an ailment or magical curse out of sheer willpower in a fit of badassness to challenge their enemy. Diamond Mind let you make the skilled fencer or single strike swordsmen, subbing concentration for your saves, attacks, or using it to allow you to do increased damage in a single blow.
4) It was hard to screw up. 3e in general is noticable for having a lot of "trap" options purposefully put in. Look at the original 3e toughness feat, for example. Tome of Battle classes didn't really have those. Most if not all the maneuvers were good but not "too good," meaning you could be a brand new player and still make someone who could be awesome.
Lastly and most importantly - and if you're going to read anything in this post, read this part - it let you play as an iconic hero and martial expert. Look at the classes, for starters. The crusader is the consumate holy warrior. While the paladin is just lawful good, the crusader is intended for any alignment - or rather, for every god. Hell, the name is "crusader," what do you expect :p? The warblade is the fighter, the weapons master, the champion. He's the mundane of the three, with no supernatural powers - just a fist full of weapon and a head full of badass. The swordsage is the mystic warrior, the monk-alike. Mixing normal maneuvers with supernatural ones, jumping and tumbling through the battlefield.
What about the disciplines themselves? Desert wind lets you play as the aesthetic and mystic dervish, dancing in and out of combat as a flash of steel and fire. Devoted Spirit grants healing as you attack as your god imbues your strikes with His or Her power, smiling on your righteous (or unholy!) battle. Diamond Mind is the flashy fencer or master of the single blow, a specialist with intense concentration. He puts a single blow exactly where it does the most harm, and time seems to move slowly when he's at his peak condition. Iron heart is just about every hero that has ever existed. No fancy flowery maneuvers, no mystic powers - just a big weapon, a steady balance an unquenchable soul, and "good footwork," shoving aside his pain to finish his foes once and for all. Setting Sun is the quiet, unassuming short guy - maybe even a halfling - who sits alone in the bar and drinks water...and then you throw a punch at him or try smashing him with a chair and find yourself flying out the window, with him seemingly never having moved at all. Want a ninja? An assassin with supernatural grace and power, who doesn't just hide in the shadow, but seems to bring the shadow with him as he moves? Shadow Hand is your choice. How about a two handed monster who moves slowly but surely, smashing - literally - whatever stands in his way with his weapon, both feet planted in the ground and refusing to budge under any circumstance? Then you want Stone Dragon. Tiger Claw gives you a feral fighter, someone who lashes out with knives and claw and fist, leaping on enemies in a whirlwind of blood. To top it all off, White Raven is the fighter you wanted to make back in 2e, the warlord and leader of men who's calls to battle and action command the battlefield.
To top it all off, aside from Shadow Hand, Devoted Spirit, and Desert Wind - the three supernatural ones - all of these disciplines have a root in real life martial arts, both eastern and western. Setting Sun can be seen as aikido or judo. Tiger Claw unarmed is brutal and all about striking vulnerable points hard - use an elbow and make it muay thai. Diamond Mind is a mixing of western fencing and eastern iaijutsu. Iron heart and Stone Dragon both take heavily from western styles of fighting with their emphasis on clearly western weapons.
Incidentally, the crowning jewel of Tome of Battle is that it's incredibly well balanced. All three classes are clear Tier 3 if not it's founding members. They aren't campaign breakers like wizards are, but they aren't sacks of useless like 3.5 Core fighters are. They're wonderfully in between, and tons of fun as well as awesomely iconic to boot. They are, without question, what martial classes are supposed to be.
I can agree with what stated above, but few notes:
- In PF you can find in one martial class or another things similar to tome of battle. Barbarian and some monks can pounce like a tiger claw warblade, monks can dimension door ALMOST like a shadow hand swordsage, a cavalier can grant moves and attacks in a manner similar to a white raven crusader.
The "almost" above can be dramatically important, so I see how one can say that things can be done better.
I Strongly disagree on options, but can be linked directly to the way I run combat in my campaings. I strongly agree with mobility (just the humble Sudden Leap made miracles).
- IHS can be awesome, but it's maybe one of the most poorly worded rule of the game.. and maybe the one of the most parodied one.
The 2-3 MOST COMMON IHS HOUSERULE VERSION are awesome ect.. IHS as is sucks. :P
Something I forgot to point out - disciplines are also really easy to create. Look online and you'll find a lot of fan-made disciplines for the various classes. There's a lot of really good stuff out there. The GitP forums have some really well done homebrewed classes, PrCs, and disciplines.
It's also significantly easier then homebrewing spells or feats. Anyone can take a feat, so you have to be careful that you don't make something that a bunch of classes will take and suddenly become extraordinarily strong. Spells? Every arcane caster ever gets those. But disciplines are not only limited to the three martial classes and various PrCs.
Why you gotta sell me on ToB like that, Cirno? Now I gotta find some way to play a warblade. You just pre-empted my idea for a melee inquisitor. Thanks for nothing! >=(
In all seriousness, that was a pretty awesome write up. Thanks for going all out with it.
Reasons I don't want these to be new feats:
Combat characters have a limited number of feats. ... We don't need more.What we need are options that unfold to combat characters as they gain combat ability (as measured by BAB). Abilities they can choose to ignore, perhaps, but that could be helpful if used.
Hear hear!! I heartily agree. There's more than enough existing options out there for character creation and advancement. We need more melee options for actual game-play. Mainly, what I'd like to see are rules & ideas on how to get characters more mobile in close combat, as opposed to watching 2 tokens lock together in adjacent squares.
Advanced combat maneuvers sounds awesome. But, I wonder if normal cm's would ever be used, after a character qualifies for the advanced version.
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Advanced combat maneuvers sounds awesome. But, I wonder if normal cm's would ever be used, after a character qualifies for the advanced version.
Do your casters never use their low level spells after gaining the next level? I think that while they get used less there will be times that normal moves are better for the situation.
ProfessorCirno & Glenn, now I cannot promise the impossible, but maybe the one thing I want from Ultimate Combat might resolve your differences:
A feat that allows standard-action maneuvers (such as dirty trick and bull-rush) to be performed with an attack. Something like a "cleave", but for maneuvers. An example of what I have in mind:
Your attacks are able to position yourself inside an enemy's guard, just enough to pull of a daring maneuver.
Prerequisite: BAB 4, Combat Expertise
Benefit: As a standard action you may make a single melee attack against an adjacent opponent. If your attack hits it is resolved as normal and you may additionally perform a combat maneuver against that opponent.
Please Paizo, just this.
If it's an advanced maneuver that does the same thing as a regular maneuver, then it should probably just be the advanced version of that maneuver and replace the original. But if it's something completely different, well I like different!
This is what I meant for "advanced maneuvers" above, as a mix of two standard ones.
Just imagine how awesome could be a grapple + trip maneuver, or a trip + drag. Sunder + Bull Rush. Feint + Disarm.
prereqs? Imp Grapple + Impr trip for the former, IT +IG for the second, and so on.
This is just an idea, but I was thinking about it as a way to increase more than linearly the increase of maneuver known related to the maneuver feats known.
Please not that the example above could be improved, maybe creating maneuvers that are MORE than a combination of 2 simple ones.
@Lorekeeper: aren't in the APG already feats making you able to perform a maneuver after a critical hit? (BTW, thay are sadly an example of the concerns expressed by Lyrax).
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So... something like this?
Advanced Maneuvers
BAB +6: You gain a +2 competence bonus to your CMB.
BAB +11: Competence bonus increases to +4. Your first successful combat maneuver each round grants you an additional attack.
BAB +16: Competence bonus increases to +6. You may perform two combat maneuvers with one roll. If you get a bonus for performing one of those maneuvers (such as from a feat), apply the highest bonus.
BAB +20: Your Whenever you attack as a standard action, you may also perform a combat maneuver in addition to your normal attack. Resolve both attacks as normal.
BAB +16: Competence bonus increases to +6. You may perform two combat maneuvers with one roll. If you get a bonus for performing one of those maneuvers (such as from a feat), apply the highest bonus.
BAB +20: Your Whenever you attack as a standard action, you may also perform a combat maneuver in addition to your normal attack. Resolve both attacks as normal.
regardless the final solution, a way to keep something similar to these two mechanics could be very interesting.
Another way for a complex maneuver could be a mix with mobility (not the feat).
Find a way for swift action moves, (like few maneuvers of the ToB that Cirno mentioned) could help in creating a dynamic round of combat.
I would like to see more Swift Action and Immediate Action options for non-spellcasters.
More Weapons, more Armor, more cars, more tanks, more airplanes more guns.
How about battle suits with missiles, lasers, and rail guns.
... can not really think of anything else...
More Weapons, more Armor, more cars, more tanks, more airplanes more guns.
How about battle suits with missiles, lasers, and rail guns.
... can not really think of anything else...
I think some more realistic armour rules could be cool. Reflecting the fact that armour doesn't make you a more difficult target to hit, it just means things that hit you won't do damage. And that chainmail stops the slash of a sword but you'll still get some broken ribs.
Would this be too complex to come up with a decent system for?
If they decide to make these alternative rules they would also have to come up with something of the same for magic spells that give you AC bonuses.
On the route of "advanced maneuvers", could be interestinx mix spellbreaker(or superstition, or whatever) and combat reflexes, or spellbreaker and power attack for something on the route of the old Mage Slayer feats.
Something for have a chance to destroy or baffle magical buffs, and, at higher levels, parry/reflect magical rays and spells...(or charms, or maybe pietrification, like Perseus).
AND +1 to moar swift and immediates.
What about some crazy stuff like witchblade, a symbiotic thingie that can do weird crazy stuff. Whether that would be an item or a PRC or whatnot, I dunno, but I had to say it.
You can shoot me now ;-P
More hand to hand unarmed strike feat strings :)
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IMO the bow has recieved a ton of better options than the humble crossbow. As a big fan of dwarves and crossbows in general, i am still a little dissapointed in the disparity between the "cool" bows and the crossbow options. Starting with needing an extra feat before using rapid shot. I will abmit, I prefer the crossbow mostly for flavor reasons, but feel punished for doing so.
On the route of "advanced maneuvers", could be interestinx mix spellbreaker(or superstition, or whatever) and combat reflexes, or spellbreaker and power attack for something on the route of the old Mage Slayer feats.
Something for have a chance to destroy or baffle magical buffs, and, at higher levels, parry/reflect magical rays and spells...(or charms, or maybe pietrification, like Perseus).
AND +1 to moar swift and immediates.
Speaking of magical area effects and immediate actions, I keep thinking of "Out of Gas" when Zoe pulls Kaylee (I think) out of the way of the big fireball and takes the brunt of the damage.
It would be neat if you could take an immediate action and grant an ally evasion at the cost of automatically failing your Reflex Save and taking full damage yourself.
For me..
I've been a big fan of the Complete Scoundrel Book.. So what I'd like to see is..
Weapon Attachments - like alternative bayonets on more than just crossbows, that allow you to function as both melee and range, but having some to-hit penalties.
Stealth Weapons - Like the APG's sword cane, but things like Assassins creed's wrist daggers, boot daggers, weighted sleeves.
Light armor that doesn't look like armor. (Like the armored coat in APG)
Skill tricks.. either like Scoundrel does them sort of, or just new ways of using a skill.
From Tomb of Battle, the Martial Classes that allow you to preform generally mundane but extraordinary things.
No spells.
More Teamwork Feats (including racial ones that monsters can use).
Alternative Initiative rules.
Rules for 'mob combat' (not mass combat, but when the party is up against a large number of orcs, or whatever).
Called shots.
Cheers
Mark
ToB stuff.
I agree with a lot of what you say here. But the hang up on ToB for many, myself included, is the flavor of it all. I know it doesn't look it to you, but it really does come off as quasi-magical powers to a large number of people. Seriously, if it was worded differently, it would be more palatable. This can be done and the mechanics can be better.
I think PF started in the right direction with a lot of new feats. But requiring multiple feats instead of scaling them hamstrung that attempt overall IMO.
My gaming group desperately wants a Pathfinder equivalent to the 3.5 feat 'Coordinated Shot' from Heroes of Battle....effectively allowing a ranged character to ignore the cover given to foes by intervening allies, at the cost of Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot prerequisites.
EDIT: without needing to wait for a +11 base attack in order to take improved precise shot. Something that someone could take at 1st or 3rd level, with the proper prereps, would be swell....
I disagree; Improved Precise Shot qualifies for what you want and I certainly do not want to see it on the tables at levels 1 or 3.
There were five major things Tome of Battle maneuvers did.
1) Give you something to do that wasn't "I full attack." Most combat maneuvers like trip or grapple are inevitably the same thing as "I full attack." It just becomes "I full attack oh also trip." Compounding this is that they are either specialize or never use, with each taking three feats to really get use out of them. ToB maneuvers were usuable right out of the box as something to do. Perhaps ironically, despite the claims that ToB was "anime" or "weeaboo," it was by far more realistic. Western Europe had it's own combat and fighting styles with weapons, they weren't just unorganizedly smashing each other over and over again. The warblade is precisely what a fighter is supposed to be - he can specialize to a certain degree, but he's good with all types of weapons, not just one super-specialized one, and he has a variety of techniques and combat maneuvers he knows.
2) More mobility. Most of the strikes were standard actions, which meant you could actually move and do them in the same round. On top of that, there were several abilities that outright increased your movement to make fighting more dynamic and fluid rather then the bout of rockem sockem robots that melee combat in 3.5 was.
3) It raised the power level without raising the pure damage level. Damage is drastically overvalued in a lot of 3.5, when in reality HP is entirely black and white. You either have HP or you don't. The difference between Player 1 who has 400 HP left and Player 2 who has 1 HP left is a small one - both are still operating at full capacity. It's why battlefield control, save or dies, and monster summoning were so valuable. What you got in ToB maneuvers was not neccisarily pure damage (A pathfinder fighter archer can easily outdamage a warblade, and a super charger in 3.5 put warblade damage to shame). Instead, you got variety. Iron Heart Surge is both incredibly awesome, incredibly useful, and incredibly iconic. I'm pretty sure just about...
This by like +1,000,000,000. I have always LOVED Tome of Battle, and with only slight updates, we have been using them in our PF games. With the APG options, there are still plenty of reasons to play the Fighter. TOB for the win!!
ToB stuff.I agree with a lot of what you say here. But the hang up on ToB for many, myself included, is the flavor of it all. I know it doesn't look it to you, but it really does come off as quasi-magical powers to a large number of people. Seriously, if it was worded differently, it would be more palatable. This can be done and the mechanics can be better.
I think PF started in the right direction with a lot of new feats. But requiring multiple feats instead of scaling them hamstrung that attempt overall IMO.
Basically it needs more powers that are less magically fantastic. Desert wind is very bad in this sense.. being that almost everything you got some sort of fire effect, while Tiger Claw was very good at not being quasi magical. (Especially with my character design using Lupin as my race.. It comes off as more things that are natural to the characters race.)
If it was expanded into things like
Desert Rose - Powers in here focus mostly on twin daggers, similar to tiger, but less feral and more beautiful. Its base skill is Preform, Dance. Relic weapon is a punching dagger known as the Roses Thorn.
Thor's Anvil - very much str based. Thor's anvil is about huge weapons pounding tiny men into tinier men. Lots of ability to push the enemy, as well as breaking their bones. Base skill is something str based..
Inventors Madness - Improvised weapon based. Powers are somewhat limited in that you can only use some of them with certain improvised weapons. For example you could use a piece of cloth, like a cape or the like in order to disarm an opponent, following up with a full round attack with a second weapon.
ToB stuff.I agree with a lot of what you say here. But the hang up on ToB for many, myself included, is the flavor of it all. I know it doesn't look it to you, but it really does come off as quasi-magical powers to a large number of people. Seriously, if it was worded differently, it would be more palatable. This can be done and the mechanics can be better.
I think PF started in the right direction with a lot of new feats. But requiring multiple feats instead of scaling them hamstrung that attempt overall IMO.
Basically it needs more powers that are less magically fantastic. Desert wind is very bad in this sense.. being that almost everything you got some sort of fire effect, while Tiger Claw was very good at not being quasi magical. (Especially with my character design using Lupin as my race.. It comes off as more things that are natural to the characters race.)
If it was expanded into things like
Desert Rose - Powers in here focus mostly on twin daggers, similar to tiger, but less feral and more beautiful. Its base skill is Preform, Dance. Relic weapon is a punching dagger known as the Roses Thorn.
Thor's Anvil - very much str based. Thor's anvil is about huge weapons pounding tiny men into tinier men. Lots of ability to push the enemy, as well as breaking their bones. Base skill is something str based..
Inventors Madness - Improvised weapon based. Powers are somewhat limited in that you can only use some of them with certain improvised weapons. For example you could use a piece of cloth, like a cape or the like in order to disarm an opponent, following up with a full round attack with a second weapon.
Well, Desert Wind and Shadow Hand were the two "supernatural" powers. I mean, they were literally supernatural - all their maneuvers had the SU tag - and the only class that could take them was the arcane, "monk" variant, the swordsage.
The other supernatural one was for crusaders, the divine "paladin" one, which also worked.
All the others were strictly extraordinary - just as with most of the Fighter abilities :)
That said, as I mentioned, there's a HUGE amount of homebrew support with an almost rediculous number of fan-made disciplines. I know I've seen one for bows, one for guns, and one for non-lethal exalted style play.
The other supernatural one was for crusaders
Sadly, Devoted Spirit was very cool but very dumb. Most of the healing maneuvers vere extraordinary - because the justification was similar to the crap behind healing surges in 4th edition.
Very easy to houserule, but a lot in the "handwaving spirit" behind the book. "How does it work?" "Dunno, who cares".
Basically it needs more powers that are less magically fantastic. Desert wind is very bad in this sense.. being that almost everything you got some sort of fire effect, while Tiger Claw was very good at not being quasi magical. (Especially with my character design using Lupin as my race.. It comes off as more things that are natural to the characters race.)
If it was expanded into things like
Desert Rose - Powers in here focus mostly on twin daggers, similar to tiger, but less feral and more beautiful. Its base skill is Preform, Dance. Relic weapon is a punching dagger known as the Roses Thorn.
Thor's Anvil - very much str based. Thor's anvil is about huge weapons pounding tiny men into tinier men. Lots of ability to push the enemy, as well as breaking their bones. Base skill is something str based..
Inventors Madness - Improvised weapon based. Powers are somewhat limited in that you can only use some of them with certain improvised weapons. For example you could use a piece of cloth, like a cape or the like in order to disarm an opponent, following up with a full round attack with a second weapon.
Well, Desert Wind and Shadow Hand were the two "supernatural" powers. I mean, they were literally supernatural - all their maneuvers had the SU tag - and the only class that could take them was the arcane, "monk" variant, the swordsage.
The other supernatural one was for crusaders, the divine "paladin" one, which also worked.
All the others were strictly extraordinary - just as with most of the Fighter abilities :)
That said, as I mentioned, there's a HUGE amount of homebrew support with an almost rediculous number of fan-made disciplines. I know I've seen one for bows, one for guns, and one for non-lethal exalted style play.
That's one of my points. I'm really not interested in seeing a lot of supernatural style powers (as the game defines them) in a martial-based book for the most part. To me, that mostly belongs in Ultimate Magic. A few would be ok. As an example, take the barbarian rage powers: In the core book they're ALL extraordinary. However in the APG, there are a few sprinkled in there. I don't like them, but their presence is fine with me because I realize that I'm not the only one who plays the game. So take that example and apply it to all the other areas of the APG: feats, spells, etc. The result is that there is a a number of ideas that I really don't like, but there is plenty of things that I do like… enough to make me want the book. There's a few things I like in ToB, but too much I don't like, so I'm not going to buy the book for just the few things I do like in it.
Also, it's been a long while since I read the book, but I remember many of them being hokey too. One that really stands out in my mind because one of the players in my group was playing a crusader at the time was the "hit an enemy, heal an ally" power. WTH? It doesn't matter if it's supernatural or extraordinary to me. That sort of flavor, no matter how you couch it, does not appeal to me.
My other point is the flavor of the text: "Desert Wind", "Stone Dragon", "Diamond This", "Diamond That", "Thicket of Blades", "Storm of blah, blah, blah"… I'm not playing pokemon. Leave the flavor text out, so I can flavor it how I want. It's not a setting specific book where you can get away with that stuff. It doesn't even take the route of naming it after something iconic in D&D, like "Robilar's Gambit".
Seriously, how the book is presented and written has a large impact on how it will relate to fans overall. ToB was/is a very devisive book as presented to the 3.5 community.
ToB's divisiveness wasn't due to the naming structure, I think. That was an excuse used to justify hate after the fact.
I agree that Devoted Spirit needed to be SU, but the fluff for it could be fantastic. As the powerful holy warrior strikes down at his enemy, his god smiles on him and the group, alleveating their wounds.
The problem with blaming the naming structure is that it's entirely western, and people don't care. Western knights and fighters and swashbucklers had organized fighting styles, and they had crazy names like you see in ToB. Crazier, in fact.
Medieval longsword styles HAD names like Long Lying Tail and Iron Door Stance. The problem is that for so long people were confused and dumb and assumed there were no western styles of fighting - that western fighters literally just beat each other with barely sharpened poles of iron. The truth is, not only were there western fighting styles, their names were just as - if not more - rediculous then whatever stereotypes about eastern styles exist. I mean, Iron Door Stance? That's a real thing. Iron Door Stance. Can you take that seriously?
It's either hilarious or depressing or both that I could take Iron Door Stance, print it in a book, and have people accuse it of being "anime." It is 100% western and 100% historically accurate, and people will still yell about "Them Japanese thingies in my European game."
I disagree; Improved Precise Shot qualifies for what you want and I certainly do not want to see it on the tables at levels 1 or 3.My gaming group desperately wants a Pathfinder equivalent to the 3.5 feat 'Coordinated Shot' from Heroes of Battle....effectively allowing a ranged character to ignore the cover given to foes by intervening allies, at the cost of Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot prerequisites.
EDIT: without needing to wait for a +11 base attack in order to take improved precise shot. Something that someone could take at 1st or 3rd level, with the proper prereps, would be swell....
Improved Precise Shot does more than I want; it allows you to ignore less than total cover. You can pick an enemy out from a crowd of enemies and ignore the cover provided by his allies...I agree that this deserves a prereq pushing it off to level 11 for full BAB builds.
What we want to is to continue to have the ability to shoot through the cover provided by allies so that, for example, in a five foot wide corridor, the archer three deep in the back isn't left nearly useless.
This shouldn't have as steep of requirements. Case in point, Coordinated Shot requires Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. So, you are spending 3 feats in order to a) gain a +1 to hit and damage within 30', b) remove the -4 penalty for shooting into melee, and c) ignore the cover provided by intervening allies between a ranged attacker and his target.
That seems fair to me. We've been using that exact feat for something like 4 or 5 years (whenever HoB was released)....my group has playtested the heck out of what I'm requesting and we've never had an issue with it. We have had plenty of issues with people not wanting to play ranged builds because there are just too many situations where you are forced to shoot through allies' positions.
If anything, slap a +4 BAB minimum on it. Don't go +6, now you're forcing non full BAB classes to wait until 8th level to...
I would argue that +3 BAB would be better. With the way Pathfinder gives out feats, a +4 BAB requirement would require level 7 for +3/4 BABs and level 9 for +1/2 BABs. +3 BAB would, obviously, be available at 3rd level Full BAB human archers and non-human fighter/rangers, and 5th level for non-human Full BAB archers, and +3/4 BAB archers. +7 for +1/2 archer-types (sorcerers and wizards specializing in ranged touch attacks, for example).
To be fair, we Englishmen used words like "Low Guard", "Fool's Guard", "High Guard", and "Middle Guard". And those do not sound the least bit Asian or anime.
To be fair, what few records exist of English martial arts lean towards them being drastically behind mainland Europe in terms of form and usability ;p
Germany was the big dog on these matters.
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To be fair, what few records exist of English martial arts lean towards them being drastically behind mainland Europe in terms of form and usability ;p
Germany was the big dog on these matters.
No argument there. The teachings of German sword-masters are much better preserved than those of any other country, especially when you go so far back, though Italy has a fair few as well.
Even with accusations of anime-ism, it would be pretty awesome to see more Pathfinder or D&D source material that borrows directly from medieval swordsmanship. But some of the names might need to be Anglicized if an exotic tone gets people upset.
ToB's divisiveness wasn't due to the naming structure, I think. That was an excuse used to justify hate after the fact.
I agree that Devoted Spirit needed to be SU, but the fluff for it could be fantastic. As the powerful holy warrior strikes down at his enemy, his god smiles on him and the group, alleveating their wounds.
The problem with blaming the naming structure is that it's entirely western, and people don't care. Western knights and fighters and swashbucklers had organized fighting styles, and they had crazy names like you see in ToB. Crazier, in fact.
Medieval longsword styles HAD names like Long Lying Tail and Iron Door Stance. The problem is that for so long people were confused and dumb and assumed there were no western styles of fighting - that western fighters literally just beat each other with barely sharpened poles of iron. The truth is, not only were there western fighting styles, their names were just as - if not more - rediculous then whatever stereotypes about eastern styles exist. I mean, Iron Door Stance? That's a real thing. Iron Door Stance. Can you take that seriously?
It's either hilarious or depressing or both that I could take Iron Door Stance, print it in a book, and have people accuse it of being "anime." It is 100% western and 100% historically accurate, and people will still yell about "Them Japanese thingies in my European game."
Indeed. For example in princess bride, which was before people really started thinking about anime (thus way before the stupid people who start going about weaboos and other crap because they are completely ignorant)
From the script..
INIGO
(thrilled)
You're using Bonetti's defense against me, ah?
MAN IN BLACK
I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain --
INIGO
Naturally, you must expect me to attack with Capo Ferro --
And he shifts his style now.
MAN IN BLACK
(coping as best he can)
-- naturally --
(suddenly shifting again)
--but I find Thibault cancels out Capo Ferro, don't you?
The Man In Black is now perched at the edge of the elevated castle ruin. No where to go, he jumps to the sand. Inigo stares down at him.
INIGO
Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa-
And now, with the grace of an Olympian, Inigo flies off the perch, somersaults clean over the Man In Black's head, and lands facing his opponent.
INIGO
-- which I have.
But yeah, people right now are just so freeking dumb that they assume that anything that has some acrobatics in it or special movements is anime.
Course I bet its mostly the fault of many movies that just have "CONAN THE BARBARIAN!!!!! run around with big sword, cut little men."
Personally though, I'd rather see much more fighting styles that are supernatural in appearance, but are based on mundane tricks. Like desert wind for example being about fire. Perhaps things that are like "focuses" that are needed to preform a maneuver, such as an Oil-Sword (designed to release oil while fighting to cover the blade thus creating an illusion that the sword is magically ablaze)
animeanimeAs far as I can tell, your complaints about people calling things "anime" are the first instances of the word "anime" in this thread. Your assumption that any complaint about flowery maneuver names must necessarily have something to do with anime is particularly telling.
Edit: In any case, I'd hate to see this perfectly interesting Ultimate Combat wish list thread degenerate into a flaming argument about the presence or absence of anime themes in RPGs. If someone in some other thread is making erroneous posts about anime, there's no reason to bring it up here.
Err... what?
Its like you were chasing the cat, then started to bark at your tail.
Meanwhile, I, the cat, am standing at a complete paws at how to handle this event.
ToB's divisiveness wasn't due to the naming structure, I think. That was an excuse used to justify hate after the fact.
I agree that Devoted Spirit needed to be SU, but the fluff for it could be fantastic. As the powerful holy warrior strikes down at his enemy, his god smiles on him and the group, alleveating their wounds.
The problem with blaming the naming structure is that it's entirely western, and people don't care. Western knights and fighters and swashbucklers had organized fighting styles, and they had crazy names like you see in ToB. Crazier, in fact.
Medieval longsword styles HAD names like Long Lying Tail and Iron Door Stance. The problem is that for so long people were confused and dumb and assumed there were no western styles of fighting - that western fighters literally just beat each other with barely sharpened poles of iron. The truth is, not only were there western fighting styles, their names were just as - if not more - rediculous then whatever stereotypes about eastern styles exist. I mean, Iron Door Stance? That's a real thing. Iron Door Stance. Can you take that seriously?
It's either hilarious or depressing or both that I could take Iron Door Stance, print it in a book, and have people accuse it of being "anime." It is 100% western and 100% historically accurate, and people will still yell about "Them Japanese thingies in my European game."
Let me re-iterate my POV more succinctly:
I don't want hokey names for powers/abilities/spells, etc. regardless of where the inspiration for them came from. That sort of stuff is appropriate for setting specific supplements, not generic ones. Likewise, I really don't want to see powers presented as a veiled attempt at making an otherwise "un-fun" action into something "interesting". Again… the "I hit this enemy and heal that ally power." type of thing. And, the supernatural abilities need to be down-played for me to find the book overall appealing.
ToB's divisiveness wasn't due to the naming structure, I think. That was an excuse used to justify hate after the fact.
I agree that Devoted Spirit needed to be SU, but the fluff for it could be fantastic. As the powerful holy warrior strikes down at his enemy, his god smiles on him and the group, alleveating their wounds.
The problem with blaming the naming structure is that it's entirely western, and people don't care. Western knights and fighters and swashbucklers had organized fighting styles, and they had crazy names like you see in ToB. Crazier, in fact.
Medieval longsword styles HAD names like Long Lying Tail and Iron Door Stance. The problem is that for so long people were confused and dumb and assumed there were no western styles of fighting - that western fighters literally just beat each other with barely sharpened poles of iron. The truth is, not only were there western fighting styles, their names were just as - if not more - rediculous then whatever stereotypes about eastern styles exist. I mean, Iron Door Stance? That's a real thing. Iron Door Stance. Can you take that seriously?
It's either hilarious or depressing or both that I could take Iron Door Stance, print it in a book, and have people accuse it of being "anime." It is 100% western and 100% historically accurate, and people will still yell about "Them Japanese thingies in my European game."
Let me re-iterate my POV more succinctly:
I don't want hokey names for powers/abilities/spells, etc. regardless of where the inspiration for them came from. That sort of stuff is appropriate for setting specific supplements, not generic ones. Likewise, I really don't want to see powers presented as a veiled attempt at making an otherwise "un-fun" action into something "interesting". Again… the "I hit this enemy and heal that ally power." type of thing. And, the supernatural abilities need to be down-played for me to find the book overall appealing. If you want to throw the paladin...
Apparently, it is from some sort of campaign thing that never seemed to take off called the Land of the Nine Swords. Which through me for a bit of a loop, cause I thought it was part of the Neverwinter Nine legends..
But prey tell though, how exactly would your naming convention be for something completely utterly generic and totally not hokey?
Like would
DANCING MONGOOSE
Tiger Claw (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 5, warblade 5
Prerequisite: Two Tiger Claw
maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: End of turn
You swing your weapons about you in a
blur of speed, making a series of devastating
attacks in the space of a single breath.
You make a flurry of deadly attacks.
After initiating this boost, you can
make one additional attack with each
weapon you wield (to a maximum of
two extra attacks if you wield two or
more weapons). These extra attacks are
made at your highest attack bonus for
each of your respective weapons. All
of these attacks must be directed
against the same opponent.
Be called something like "Hit things many times"? Or is Dancing Mongoose not Hokey?
Or Perhaps it should be something more like a spells name.. "Alterian", cause frankly, I am confused on how to make something not hokey and fit completely generically, be somewhat rememberable..etc.
Cause to me, everything seems to fit perfectly fine in its initial discription for the most part.
DESERT WIND
Speed and mobility are the hallmarks of the Desert Wind
discipline. Desert Wind maneuvers often involve blinding
fl urries of blows, quick charges, and agile footwork. Some
maneuvers from this school, however, draw power from
the supernatural essence of the desert and allow an adept
practitioner to scour his foes with fire.
The key skill for Desert Wind maneuvers is Tumble. Weapons
associated with Desert Wind include the scimitar, light
mace, light pick, falchion, and spear.
DEVOTED SPIRIT
Faith, piety, and purity of body and mind are the wellsprings
of a warrior’s true power. Devoted Spirit maneuvers harness
a practitioner’s spiritual strength and her zealous devotion to
a cause. This discipline includes energies baneful to a creature
opposed to the Devoted Spirit student’s cause, abilities
that can keep an adept fi ghting long after a more mundane
warrior would fall to his enemies, and strikes infused with
vengeful, fanatical power.
Intimidate is the key skill for Devoted Spirit. Devoted
Spirit associated weapons include the falchion, greatclub,
longsword, and maul.
DIAMOND MIND
True quickness lies in the mind, not the body. A student of
the Diamond Mind discipline seeks to hone his perceptions
and discipline his thoughts so that he can act in slivers of
time so narrow that others cannot even perceive them. A
corollary of this speed of thought and action is the concept
of the mind as the battleground. An enemy defeated in
his mind must inevitably be defeated in the realm of the
physical as well.
Concentration is the key skill for Diamond Mind. The
rapier, shortspear, bastard sword (katana), and trident are
the associated weapons for Diamond Mind.
IRON HEART
Absolute mastery of the sword is the goal of the Iron Heart
discipline. Through unending practice and study, the Iron
Heart adept achieves superhuman skill with her weapons.
Iron Heart maneuvers are demonstrations of uncanny martial
skill—weaving patterns of steel that dizzy, confuse, and
ultimately kill with no recourse.
The key skill for Iron Heart is Balance, since a perfect
understanding of motion is essential to maneuvers in
this discipline. The bastard sword, dwarven waraxe, longsword,
and two-bladed sword are the associated weapons
for Iron Heart.
Then of course, beyond this, I cannot understand why it is impossible to change the names to fit in your campain if say, you don't have any deserts.. So Desert wind Becomes Green Naga, Or Likelike Mahalo style.
Though I can understand your view on the "I hit this enemy and heal this ally" being bad cause its ex.. If your view on HP is missing HP is only physical damage taken. (Like it is in video games) rather than a more dynamic but harder to comprehend 'will to fight'..
I also understand your view on the quasi-magicalescness of the things. Cause I'm personally in the same boat. I'd rather have mundane tricks creating magical like effects.
animeanimeAs far as I can tell, your complaints about people calling things "anime" are the first instances of the word "anime" in this thread. Your assumption that any complaint about flowery maneuver names must necessarily have something to do with anime is particularly telling.
Edit: In any case, I'd hate to see this perfectly interesting Ultimate Combat wish list thread degenerate into a flaming argument about the presence or absence of anime themes in RPGs. If someone in some other thread is making erroneous posts about anime, there's no reason to bring it up here.
Well, to be brief, that we make this assumption is telling - what it tells is that the complaint of ToB being "anime" is absurdedly widespread and is found in almost any venue where the book is discussed ;p
A definitive list of weapons, armors and their stats. Trivial, I know, but useful. A system for combining feats (and / or skills) to get different results, kind of like mixing chemicals... a bit of "x" and a bit of "Y" gives "Z". Complicated, but interesting. Might eliminate the need for a million new feats to cover everybodies specific wants / needs. Different schools of combat might teach different combos, or different classes might allow different ones. You could even have a feat that allows combos :) Some more archtypes for combat classes (a horse archer one for cavaliers for example -- I've come up with one for the Elves in my game). Prestige classes aimed at shifting the focus of a fighter or other combat class's career. A "captain" type officer prc for example for fighters / cavaliers or a seige engineer with specialized talents in constructing siege engines and the like (again, something I've done, but another take is always welcome). I don't feel an entire new base class is needed for something like this, a good prc would do nicely.
*edit* Oh, and mass battle / seige rules oriented to roleplaying, but I suspect any number have mentioned this. Hmm... and naval and aerial rules too :)
I shall pray tell :)
DANCING MONGOOSE…
Rapid Attack (as opposed to Rapid Shot)… Deadly Flurry. Simple and to the point.
Though I can understand your view on the "I hit this enemy and heal this ally" being bad cause its ex.. If your view on HP is missing HP is only physical damage taken. (Like it is in video games) rather than a more dynamic but harder to comprehend 'will to fight'..
My view on HP is as old school as it gets. Namely it represents actual damage, wearing away of physical stamina, extertion, will to fight, and so forth. It encompasses all those things in my view. But when you fall into a pool of acid and take physical damage during the course of a session, and then your ally PC can just goes up and whacks some goblins and somehow heals you just doesn't work well if your goal is to achieve versimilitude.
As a side note:
Speaking of which, I don't know if it's been suggested yet but a mundane healing mechanic would be nice to see in Ultimate Combat.
In case it hasn't been mentioned yet: a list of fantastical mounts suitable for PCs at expected levels (giant eagles, griffons, and so forth). Maybe give them a WBL value for those GMs who use that or just to give an idea of when acquiring a given mount would be appropriate.