So, I'm looking at feeblemind.
Fey sorcerer 10, spell focus and greater spell focus enchantment. Maybe throw in mind fog as the second fourth level spell (after confusion obviously).
Effective +8 DC to end an enemy spellcaster pretty much permanently. And not too shabby against non-spellcasters since they usually have poor will.
Am I looking at this wrong? It seems too powerful.
Powerful? yes.
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O_o
For a given value of powerful.
The scenario/setup requires:
- a class choice made to maximise Compulsion effects
- two spells designed to work together
- two feats
...so yes, after that much effort to drop arcane spellcasters and the occasional random other, I'd hope that the end result/effect would be considered powerful!
However, the power trip doesn't last long --
..a few levels later and Heal comes into play - reducing the effectiveness of the setup
..and a few levels more and Mind Blank comes into play, utterly negating most of the power of the entire class choice/setup!
So yes, for a select scenario and for a limited time, the spell is powerful.
Too powerful? No.
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So, I'm looking at feeblemind.
Fey sorcerer 10, spell focus and greater spell focus enchantment. Maybe throw in mind fog as the second fourth level spell (after confusion obviously).
Effective +8 DC to end an enemy spellcaster pretty much permanently. And not too shabby against non-spellcasters since they usually have poor will.
Am I looking at this wrong? It seems too powerful.
I see a winner for spell perfection right there. Double bonuses ftw! And free metamagic too! Slap a free quicken on one and a free persistent on another. Heck, use persistent spell on the quickened one too. 4 saves, with the racial bonuses and spell focus bonuses doubling for a +12 to DC. Assuming 20 CHA (modest assumption at that level), and you've got FOUR DC 32 will saves to make. =D
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I see a winner for spell perfection right there. Double bonuses ftw! And free metamagic too! Slap a free quicken on one and a free persistent on another. Heck, use persistent spell on the quickened one too. 4 saves, with the racial bonuses and spell focus bonuses doubling for a +12 to DC. Assuming 20 CHA (modest assumption at that level), and you've got FOUR DC 32 will saves to make. =DSo, I'm looking at feeblemind.
Fey sorcerer 10, spell focus and greater spell focus enchantment. Maybe throw in mind fog as the second fourth level spell (after confusion obviously).
Effective +8 DC to end an enemy spellcaster pretty much permanently. And not too shabby against non-spellcasters since they usually have poor will.
Am I looking at this wrong? It seems too powerful.
I don't think you can do quicken and persistent with spell perfection, it raises the spell level above 9th.
Spell perfection is... good.
I see a winner for spell perfection right there. Double bonuses ftw! And free metamagic too! Slap a free quicken on one and a free persistent on another. Heck, use persistent spell on the quickened one too. 4 saves, with the racial bonuses and spell focus bonuses doubling for a +12 to DC. Assuming 20 CHA (modest assumption at that level), and you've got FOUR DC 32 will saves to make. =DSo, I'm looking at feeblemind.
Fey sorcerer 10, spell focus and greater spell focus enchantment. Maybe throw in mind fog as the second fourth level spell (after confusion obviously).
Effective +8 DC to end an enemy spellcaster pretty much permanently. And not too shabby against non-spellcasters since they usually have poor will.
Am I looking at this wrong? It seems too powerful.
I don't think you can do quicken and persistent with spell perfection, it raises the spell level above 9th.
Spell perfection is... good.
Oh. Haha. You're right. Well, 3 saves then. XD
Enchantment gets the bad end of the stick more often than not. Might as well make use of the nice things where possible?
Oho! Is it a coincidence that it lines up with the +8 DC for a focused enchantment sorcerer? :)
Note: Mind blank no longer grants immunity to mind-affecting effects. It just gives a +8 bonus on saves against those effects.
Oooh. That's good to hear.
Read..
..misc
by the same token a well place cloudkill followed by wall of stone to pin a monster in a courner with no way to escape is pretty much certain death for any living creature. instant tomb of slow death.
as ogre says 2 spell combo that you focus on can be very powerful at the price of your character being more versatile
there's even traits you can take to make feeblemind a favoured spell so any metamagic applied costs 1 less increase in level.
Note: Mind blank no longer grants immunity to mind-affecting effects. It just gives a +8 bonus on saves against those effects.
No, but for $4500 you can be immune. The resonant power of a clear spindle ioun stone in a wayfinder makes you immune to all mind affecting effects w/o even using a magic item slot.
If there ever was a time to use the hated term "broken," it's with that combo.
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Lore Seeker trait will add another +1cl +1 Dc and Arcane Concordance will further boost it up with a free metamagic feat like enlarge spell and another +1. Dc Something tells me Scrolls of Arcane Concordance will become extremely popular for wizards and Sorcs....
Arcane Bloodline are even worse at 15th level or 11th with Robes of Arcane Heritage. +2 for spell focus/Greater Spell Focus +2 For Bloodline power and +1 more for Bloodline Arcana using metamagic feat.
Honestly get Spell Perfection for both Mind Fog and Feeblemind then you can quicken one and persistance the other.
The spell in question is certainly more devastating that meeble find. Sure, it works every time, but you can get the same effect with Google, a click, and then CTRL-D.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
It is very powerful, and a great combo.
It will also be completely useless against constructs, vermin, and undead, all things you will likely encounter at some point through your career up to and through level 10, and at level 10 you will also probably have started dealing with creatures with SR (outsiders and dragons).
Sounds like a really cool, fun concept to play, and devastating in certain combats, but be sure to build your character to have a backup plan when that CR 10 Clay Golem shows up.
So, I'm looking at feeblemind.
Fey sorcerer 10, spell focus and greater spell focus enchantment. Maybe throw in mind fog as the second fourth level spell (after confusion obviously).
Effective +8 DC to end an enemy spellcaster pretty much permanently. And not too shabby against non-spellcasters since they usually have poor will.
Am I looking at this wrong? It seems too powerful.
So in specific circumstances, with a specific build, burning two feats, you can make a fifth level spell work.
Congratulations. Check out the Oracle's awesome display ability -- I point out for the ability I mention that the best Cha you can get (without a succubi) is 36 which is a Cha Mod of 13. Then look at what type of spell Color Spray is.
So, I'm looking at feeblemind.
Fey sorcerer 10, spell focus and greater spell focus enchantment. Maybe throw in mind fog as the second fourth level spell (after confusion obviously).
Effective +8 DC to end an enemy spellcaster pretty much permanently. And not too shabby against non-spellcasters since they usually have poor will.
Am I looking at this wrong? It seems too powerful.
So in specific circumstances, with a specific build, burning two feats, you can make a fifth level spell work.
Congratulations. Check out the Oracle's awesome display ability -- I point out for the ability I mention that the best Cha you can get (without a succubi) is 36 which is a Cha Mod of 13. Then look at what type of spell Color Spray is.
... then note that awesome display has no effect on color spray.
Awesome display only increases the total number of HD affected by a spell that is limited by total number of HD. It does not change "this spell cannot affect a target with more than X HD" caps or "maximum effect reached at X HD" caps.
It's mainly that I spent so much time on the Neverwinter Nights games compared with tabletop that I forgot how good it actually was. And as for being a one-trick pony, it's only one spell out of dozens. When unable to magic the enemy, buff the fighter. Plenty of known spells left to do that adequately. :P
It's mainly that I spent so much time on the Neverwinter Nights games compared with tabletop that I forgot how good it actually was. And as for being a one-trick pony, it's only one spell out of dozens. When unable to magic the enemy, buff the fighter. Plenty of known spells left to do that adequately. :P
Enter the human sorcerer.
... then note that awesome display has no effect on color spray.
Awesome display only increases the total number of HD affected by a spell that is limited by total number of HD. It does not change "this spell cannot affect a target with more than X HD" caps or "maximum effect reached at X HD" caps.
Incorrect:
Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier (if positive).
Nowhere in that does it say anything about total number of HD per spell.
It states, "Each creature affected by your illusion(pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit dice were equal to its number of hit dice minus your charisma modifier.
So if you have a charisma modifier of +13, and they have 15 hit dice, then they are treated as if they are a 2 hit dice creature for color spray (an illusion(patter) spell).
Since any creature can be affected by color spray (realizing the blindness defense and what not) even if the effect is simply stunning it for one round, then any creature will have its hit dice reduced, and therefore will probably be affected by color spray more than simply being stunned for one round.
Sorry, I didn't realize they'd changed it from the Final Playtest version. My bad.
Sorry, I didn't realize they'd changed it from the Final Playtest version. My bad.
No problem -- I wish you were right, having a first level spell that was "I win if I get close" was bad enough -- having it last all the way up to end game is just... yeah not a great choice. Having it do this for a divine class with all the other perks Oracles get is just plain stupid.
I would be more understanding if this was a sorcerer power -- but as an oracle power I hate it.
Where'd my post go!? It should be, like, 5 posts above this one!
Grrr...
To reiterate:
Feeblemind is held back due the fact that it requires a Will save. The spell is designed to target spellcasters, all of whom will have frighteningly high Will saves. It's only saving grace is the penalty it sometimes imposes on said save.
Mind Fog is even worse--and is also a trap. Why would anyone attack a Will save in order to lower said save to ensure the success of a follow up Will save-based spell? If they fail against Mind Fog, they likely would have failed against the follow up spell anyways. All you've accomplished is wasting a round casting a needless spell.
I was thinking:
You see a bunch of enemies with moderate to high will saves.
You drop mind fog on the group. It's likely some will fail their saves.
Now you can enchant those that failed to fight those that didn't.
I was thinking:
You see a bunch of enemies with moderate to high will saves.
You drop mind fog on the group. It's likely some will fail their saves.
Now you can enchant those that failed to fight those that didn't.
If I'm not mistaken, since it is an area effect spell, you don't necessarily know who failed their saves though.
Dang!
Dang!
Still a valid tactic though, what you do is follow up with a will save spell that DOES affect a large group of opponents that has visual consequences.
Slow fits the bill for example. It's a will save that has a great effect on a large number of targets, which greatly helps your team -- the fact that you set yourself up for a better chance of success the round before simply shows that you are a good tactician.
In many ways it's a SoD spell. After all most enemies that get affected by it are out of the fight and can't do anything. Like most SoD spells if you bump the DC up enough it get very, very nice.
I don't see this as being remotely close to overpowered. Especially it doesn't work on a lot of enemies. In addition to the ones immune to mind influencing affects the ones that already have an animal intelligence won't really be affected either.
Note: Mind blank no longer grants immunity to mind-affecting effects. It just gives a +8 bonus on saves against those effects.
That's too bad. Although I guess it would make a decent 6th level spell along with Protection from Spells. A 5th level cleric spell gets you SR 21+ but it takes an 8th level wizard spell to get a +8 to saves. It would be nice to see magic effects and durations stop getting nerfed.
In many ways it's a SoD spell. After all most enemies that get affected by it are out of the fight and can't do anything. Like most SoD spells if you bump the DC up enough it get very, very nice.
Feeblemind? It's only effectively a "save or die" against certain enemies. Feeblemind a fighter and, unless he has the Combat Expertise line of feats, you have done nothing to reduce his combat effectiveness. Even with 1 Intelligence he will keep all his feats (except Int-based ones) and fighting abilities and can still recognize you as his enemy.
You will likely have similar results with a dragon or similar creature or character.
In many ways it's a SoD spell. After all most enemies that get affected by it are out of the fight and can't do anything. Like most SoD spells if you bump the DC up enough it get very, very nice.Feeblemind? It's only effectively a "save or die" against certain enemies. Feeblemind a fighter and, unless he has the Combat Expertise line of feats, you have done nothing to reduce his combat effectiveness. Even with 1 Intelligence he will keep all his feats (except Int-based ones) and fighting abilities and can still recognize you as his enemy.
You will likely have similar results with a dragon or similar creature or character.
Feeblemind should be used judiciously by GMs, especially when a party has no internal access to ways to cure. It's not so bad for fighters and such, but it can be pretty obnoxious to rogues, and it sucks every last bit out of fun of the game for INT-based spellcasters. I'd say that it's harsh, but fair, for a party that has an 11th level or higher Cleric. Other than that, it's cheesy and extremely frustrating. I was a little disappointed to see that it hadn't been changed at app for PF.
In many ways it's a SoD spell. After all most enemies that get affected by it are out of the fight and can't do anything. Like most SoD spells if you bump the DC up enough it get very, very nice.Feeblemind? It's only effectively a "save or die" against certain enemies. Feeblemind a fighter and, unless he has the Combat Expertise line of feats, you have done nothing to reduce his combat effectiveness. Even with 1 Intelligence he will keep all his feats (except Int-based ones) and fighting abilities and can still recognize you as his enemy.
You will likely have similar results with a dragon or similar creature or character.
If you feeblemind a fighter and he fails his save and nothing changes, the fighter's player (or the DM, depending on who's running the fighter) is doing it wrong.
Sorry to plug my own post but I agree that feeblemind is one of the better spells in the game.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/theMostPowerfulOverpoweredSpellsInPathfinder&page=1&sour ce=search#0
It takes the wind out of creatures that use spell like abilities (which generally rely on Charisma), and completely turns arcane casters into lumps. Other classes fare better, but still take a beating. Paladins? Brutal!
The -4 for arcane casters is just nasty! While arcane casters do have good will saves, they rarely have much of a wisdom, so the save is going to be a longshot almost every time. And since they are the ones most likely to be able to get rid of the effect, it often ends their part in the adventure until they can teleport - opps - walk back to civilization.
I wouldn't have changed the spell much, but getting rid of the -4 would have made it a little more balanced in my book.
Lemme put it this way: Int 1 isn't just "losing high-level critical thinking". It's "barely even able to think". Charisma 1 is also "barely able to tell the difference between itself and the environment" -- check the definition of a Charisma 0 creature in the Core Rulebook.
Something with Int 1 and Cha 1 is only slightly more tactically useful than a mobile trap.
Lemme put it this way: Int 1 isn't just "losing high-level critical thinking". It's "barely even able to think". Charisma 1 is also "barely able to tell the difference between itself and the environment" -- check the definition of a Charisma 0 creature in the Core Rulebook.
Something with Int 1 and Cha 1 is only slightly more tactically useful than a mobile trap.
This is true, but is memory is not gone, so could remember to just beat up the last one threatened him or flee, like an animal.
i agree overall that the way it would be played should change a lot.
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Lemme put it this way: Int 1 isn't just "losing high-level critical thinking". It's "barely even able to think". Charisma 1 is also "barely able to tell the difference between itself and the environment" -- check the definition of a Charisma 0 creature in the Core Rulebook.
Something with Int 1 and Cha 1 is only slightly more tactically useful than a mobile trap.
Page 17: "Charisma measures a character’s personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance. [...] A character with a Charisma score of 0 is not able to exert himself in any way and is unconscious." -- which is irrelevant for this conversation, as that's not what feeblemind does. (I'm not sure where you get the "barely able to *" quotes, as they don't appear anywhere in a search of my core rulebook)
So you consider: Constrictor Snake, Crocodile, Dire Crocodile, Lizard, Shark, Venomous Snake, Viper, oozes, golems, and a bunch of giant vermin (spiders, centipedes, scorpions, etc.) to be nothing more than mobile traps? Even excluding the mindless stuff, the Int 1/Cha 2 is not exactly a walk in the park nor simply mobile traps -- they will follow you and eat you if they feel you are prey -- last time I checked, most traps don't do that... :-p
If something attacks an Int 1/Cha 1 fighter, he's still going to have enough instinct to know to hit back (probably power attacking, etc., if he has it)
Lemme put it this way: Int 1 isn't just "losing high-level critical thinking". It's "barely even able to think". Charisma 1 is also "barely able to tell the difference between itself and the environment" -- check the definition of a Charisma 0 creature in the Core Rulebook.
Something with Int 1 and Cha 1 is only slightly more tactically useful than a mobile trap.
Page 17: "Charisma measures a character’s personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance. [...] A character with a Charisma score of 0 is not able to exert himself in any way and is unconscious." -- which is irrelevant for this conversation, as that's not what feeblemind does. (I'm not sure where you get the "barely able to *" quotes, as they don't appear anywhere in a search of my core rulebook)
So you consider: Constrictor Snake, Crocodile, Dire Crocodile, Lizard, Shark, Venomous Snake, Viper, oozes, golems, and a bunch of giant vermin (spiders, centipedes, scorpions, etc.) to be nothing more than mobile traps? Even excluding the mindless stuff, the Int 1/Cha 2 is not exactly a walk in the park nor simply mobile traps -- they will follow you and eat you if they feel you are prey -- last time I checked, most traps don't do that... :-p
If something attacks an Int 1/Cha 1 fighter, he's still going to have enough instinct to know to hit back (probably power attacking, etc., if he has it)
Please read what I wrote in context with what I was replying to. I was replying to Ravingdork's assertion that casting feeblemind on a Fighter has no effect unless that Fighter has feats requiring a certain Int score, and to Rezdave's assertion of dragons losing spells and high-level critical thinking, "but not much else".
In other words, I'm saying that Int 1/Cha 1 is a much greater impairment than either nothing at all or just not being able to be the army's general.
Lemme put it this way: Int 1 isn't just "losing high-level critical thinking". It's "barely even able to think". Charisma 1 is also "barely able to tell the difference between itself and the environment" -- check the definition of a Charisma 0 creature in the Core Rulebook.
Something with Int 1 and Cha 1 is only slightly more tactically useful than a mobile trap.
Target creature's Intelligence and Charisma scores each drop to 1. The affected creature is unable to use Intelligence- or Charisma-based skills, cast spells, understand language, or communicate coherently. Still, it knows who its friends are and can follow them and even protect them. The subject remains in this state until a heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell is used to cancel the effect of the feeblemind. A creature that can cast arcane spells, such as a sorcerer or a wizard, takes a –4 penalty on its saving throw.
A fighter can still fight. What's more, he will still be able to make full use of his feats just as easily as a crocodile or similar dumb animal with the same feats. He can't really communicate with his allies, but he still knows who is allies are and will even take steps to protect them (assuming he would have normally).
I never said he couldn't fight, tell friend from foe, or protect his allies. I said that the spell will have an effect on him, something you explicitly said it wouldn't. A 1 Int Fighter will not make 5' steps to flank, will not take steps to avoid AoOs, will not use combat maneuvers like Disarm, Sunder, Dirty Trick, or the like, will not use magic items, won't take tactical advantage of terrain, etc etc etc.
A fighter can still fight.
There's a difference between "can" and "will." You're still ignoring the Charisma effect. Zurai is dead-on, 0 charisma is catatonia and 1 is only a tiny step above that. He will be wracked with uncertainty and indecision and quite unlikely to want to keep fighting, especially if the enemy capitalizes on the situation by telling him to stop in a firm voice.
Now, a raging barbarian is another story entirely. He'll still be raging.
I never said he couldn't fight, tell friend from foe, or protect his allies. I said that the spell will have an effect on him, something you explicitly said it wouldn't. A 1 Int Fighter will not make 5' steps to flank, will not take steps to avoid AoOs, will not use combat maneuvers like Disarm, Sunder, Dirty Trick, or the like, will not use magic items, won't take tactical advantage of terrain, etc etc etc.
I agree with SOME of that. I still think he could and would take 5-foot steps, flank, and try to avoid AoO's as per normal (avoiding retaliation and ganging up with allies is basic animal instinct, not advanced tactics). Using advanced tactics (much of the other stuff you describe), complex magic items, etc. will likely be forgotten as you say.
A fighter will still do the basic things such as charge an enemy, make full attacks, use of non-intelligence-based feats such as Power Attack and Cleave, and making use of manufactured weapons. I mean, let's face it, it's all muscle memory by the time said fighter is facing down 5th-level spells.
I do not know if PF has change the spell description (I haven't had reason to check) but it USED specify that the creature would ONLY fight to defend itself and only when it was being attacked.
I do not know if PF has change the spell description (I haven't had reason to check) but it USED specify that the creature would ONLY fight to defend itself and only when it was being attacked.
I don't remember that. Must have been a LONG time ago. (2nd edition or older?)
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Please read what I wrote in context with what I was replying to. I was replying to Ravingdork's assertion that casting feeblemind on a Fighter has no effect unless that Fighter has feats requiring a certain Int score, and to Rezdave's assertion of dragons losing spells and high-level critical thinking, "but not much else".
In other words, I'm saying that Int 1/Cha 1 is a much greater impairment than either nothing at all or just not being able to be the army's general.
I did read it; what I would disagree with is your assertion that a low Charisma equals "barely able to tell the difference between itself and the environment".
Perception and environmental awareness, sensing the world around you, is the purview of Wisdom, which is unaffected by feeblemind, and hence why the fighter is still perfectly capable of attacking, defending himself, etc. without the skilled combat capabilities that come from Int (Combat Expertise, etc.). Also why creatures such as crocs, sharks, etc. with very low Cha scores remain excellent hunters -- besides their physical scores making them strong melee combatants, they are keenly aware of their surroundings.
I would argue that what our stoic example fighter loses by having a low Charisma score is a sense of self, or self-identification, and/or his "character’s personality" (as the Charisma description states). The drop to Cha 1 is what shifts him from "thinking" about his actions in combat (i.e., tactics) into the mode of operating on instinct more than anything else (i.e., fight or flee).