Bastard Sword and Furious Focus (APG)

[Anthony Law]

The description of Furious Focus states "[w]hen you are wielding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands". My son's fighter is 5th level and has Power Attack. He wields a bastard sword but took the Exotic Weapon Proficiency so he could also carry a shield.

So the question is, since a bastard sword is a "two-handed weapon" that can be used one-handed with specific training, does it count as wielding a two-handed weapon for this feat when used in just one hand?

[Zmar]

I'd say no, but that could be just as the rules as intended.

[YuenglingDragon]

I think the feat is pretty specifically worded. A "two handed weapon or a one handed weapon wielded with two hands" implies that the important bit is that both hands are being used.

[DrowVampyre]

No. The bastard sword isn't a 2h weapon you can use one handed with special training, it's a 1h weapon you have to use two handed without special training (look on the table - it's listed as an exotic 1h, but you're allowed to use it two handed if you have martial proficiency).

[voska66]

The Bastard sword is a 1 handed weapon. That's what it is listed as in the chart. So in order to use Furious Focus you need to use two hands with it. Simple as that as per the rules. If you use it as just a martial weapon you have to use two hands and there fore also qualify to use Furious Focus.

[John Spalding]

The harder to answer case is a lance. A lance is listed as a 2 handed weapon. However "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand."

If you parse as

condition 1: Two handed weapon
OR
condition 2: A one-handed weapon with two hands

It seems to qualify under condition 1. It is definitely a 2 Handed weapon.

This is especially tempting as a lance is best used to charge and there you are only making one attack per round.

[King of Vrock]

John Spalding wrote:

The harder to answer case is a lance. A lance is listed as a 2 handed weapon. However "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand."

If you parse as

condition 1: Two handed weapon
OR
condition 2: A one-handed weapon with two hands

It seems to qualify under condition 1. It is definitely a 2 Handed weapon.

This is especially tempting as a lance is best used to charge and there you are only making one attack per round.

A Lance specifically says you can use the normally 2 handed weapon in one hand while you are mounted. You still do 1.5 Str damage with it on a mounted attack. This is an example of the specific rule overrides the general.

A Bastard sword however must actually be used with two hands to qualify for Furious Focus.

--Chopping Vrock

[Mojorat]

King of Vrock wrote:

John Spalding wrote:

The harder to answer case is a lance. A lance is listed as a 2 handed weapon. However "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand."

If you parse as

condition 1: Two handed weapon
OR
condition 2: A one-handed weapon with two hands

It seems to qualify under condition 1. It is definitely a 2 Handed weapon.

This is especially tempting as a lance is best used to charge and there you are only making one attack per round.

A Lance specifically says you can use the normally 2 handed weapon in one hand while you are mounted. You still do 1.5 Str damage with it on a mounted attack. This is an example of the specific rule overrides the general.

A Bastard sword however must actually be used with two hands to qualify for Furious Focus.

--Chopping Vrock

where does it actually say yous till do 1.5 str damage? the reason i ask is my charactr and a friends are both mounted chargers in our current game and we were using normal str and 1h power attack for lances.

[seekerofshadowlight]

Throw me in the "You must use both hands" group. The feat is pretty clear.

[Howie23]

Mojorat wrote:

where does it actually say yous till do 1.5 str damage? the reason i ask is my charactr and a friends are both mounted chargers in our current game and we were using normal str and 1h power attack for lances.

It doesn't. To gain the benefit of 1.5 str damage, you need to use the weapon with two hands; this is true of a lance, a lance when mounted, a bastard sword, a longsword, etc., etc., etc.

[Mojorat]

Howie23 wrote:

Mojorat wrote:

where does it actually say yous till do 1.5 str damage? the reason i ask is my charactr and a friends are both mounted chargers in our current game and we were using normal str and 1h power attack for lances.

It doesn't. To gain the benefit of 1.5 str damage, you need to use the weapon with two hands; this is true of a lance, a lance when mounted, a bastard sword, a longsword, etc., etc., etc.

yes thats what i figured, done the other way my friends Cavalier would get arouned +54 or so on a charge rather than +36 but seems we probly were doing it correctly.

[King of Vrock]

A Lance is a Two Handed Weapon with the special clause that it may be wielded in one hand while mounted. This doesn't change it to a One Handed weapon, that's merely a special exception to the general rule.

Two Handed weapons by definition do Str x 1.5.

General Rule:

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

Specific Exception to rule:

Lance: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.

I think it's pretty obvious that the mount is what supplies the extra umph and it also allows the mounted knight with lance and shield.

--Vrock, Paper, Scissors

[Quandary]

Or you know, if you look at the actual Combat rules directly discussing STR bonus to DMG:

Quote:

Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.

Hmm... Equipment section or the actual section where STR to DMG is introduced and described thoroughly. Is there a non-zero chance that the two handed weapon description is assuming you are wielding the weapon with two hands (right after saying you MUST do so) and simply re-iterating the WIELDING a weapon two-handed rule to make clear the benefit of this weapon category in relation to the others? Decide for yourself...

[BigNorseWolf]

No cheese allowed.

If you got the thing in one hand you treat it like a one handed weapon. If you've got it in two hands you treat it like a two handed weapon.

[AvalonXQ]

Quandary wrote:

Or you know, if you look at the actual Combat rules directly discussing STR bonus to DMG:

Quote:

Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.

Hmm... Equipment section or the actual section where STR to DMG is introduced and described thoroughly. Is there a non-zero chance that the two handed weapon description is assuming you are wielding the weapon with two hands (right after saying you MUST do so) and simply re-iterating the WIELDING a weapon two-handed rule to make clear the benefit of this weapon category in relation to the others? Decide for yourself...

This doesn't contradict the rule in equipment. If you wield a two-handed weapon, you get 1.5 Str to damage. If you wield a weapon two-handed, you get 1.5 Str to damage.

I always assumed that the lance was a special case, and really did give you all the benefits of wielding a two-handed weapon while mounted, including 1.5 Str.
But now I'm not sure. Tagged for FAQ.

[Mojorat]

Quandary wrote:

Or you know, if you look at the actual Combat rules directly discussing STR bonus to DMG:

Quote:

Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.

Hmm... Equipment section or the actual section where STR to DMG is introduced and described thoroughly. Is there a non-zero chance that the two handed weapon description is assuming you are wielding the weapon with two hands (right after saying you MUST do so) and simply re-iterating the WIELDING a weapon two-handed rule to make clear the benefit of this weapon category in relation to the others? Decide for yourself...

if a 1h weapon becomes 2handed while wielded as such why would a 2h weapon not become 1handed? i presume the extra thrust from the horse is counted in the x2(x3) damage rather than continuing to treat it as 2haanded.

[Quandary]

AFAIK Nothing else in the game depends on the class of weapon, even the writer of the 2 Handed Fighter Archetype stated that he intended it´s benefits to work on all non-Light weapons wielded with 2 Hands (though the RAW in that case does also depend on weapon class).

Can you hold up 1 section of the rules and claim that the specific wording means the class of weapon itself, independent of wielding, can also determine STR bonus to DMG and other effects? Sure, or one can take into account the editing standards seen in the rest of the rules, and imagine what the RAI really is.

I can´t see why the 2 Handed Weapon Class wouldn´t also be mentioned in the Combat Chapter section on STR bonus to DMG if it indeed was valid to qualify for bigger damage without needing to actually wield the weapon with 2 hands. Obviously, this would imply the Equipment section might be due for a minor Errata, though I don´t hold my breath for that given much worse Errata haven´t seen corrective action when known for over a year and a half. Hitting the FAQ button (on Vrock´s post, 4 posts up) couldn´t hurt though.

IMHO, the RAI is that the only difference between the 1 Handed and 2 Handed weapon classes is that the latter REQUIRES you to use 2 hands (and generally has bigger base damage). The actual RAW does conflict with this in various places though, though not so strongly as to provide particular evidence that another function is the RAI. Hopefully if the weapon category section is fixed, the other mentions could be dealt with as well (eg fighter variant, power attack, etc).

[King of Vrock]

Mojorat wrote:

if a 1h weapon becomes 2handed while wielded as such why would a 2h weapon not become 1handed? i presume the extra thrust from the horse is counted in the x2(x3) damage rather than continuing to treat it as 2haanded.

That's just it, a 1H weapon does not become a 2h weapon. The rules are pretty clear.

PRD Equipment wrote:

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

The 1h weapon has a special exception saying if you wield it in 2 hands you can add more damage.

The Lance itself is a special weapon. It deals double damage when used in a mounted charge and can be wielded in one hand while mounted. It's not a bug it's a feature people.

--School of Vrock.

[Kain Darkwind]

I think it is fair to say either interpretation is allowed under the rules.

Assuming a 1st level fighter with 18 Str, a lance deals 2d8 + 8 damage under the 'one handing = one handed' definition. It deals 2d8 + 12 damage under the 'one handing, still two handed weapon' definition.

I personally would rule the former, but I wouldn't fault anyone for saying the rules support the latter.

[Quandary]

Assuming this gets some Errata attention, AFAIK per RAW composite bows should get the 2-handed damage bonus, there isn´t specific enough language saying that the +50% increase doesn´t apply to them, and since they do explicitly apply STR bonus to DMG and are wielded with 2 hands, the 50% increase should apply per RAW (+50% to the allowed STR bonus, per bow rating), which conflicts with RAI as I understand.

Sure Kain, it´s just that the circumstantial evidence in the Combat Chapter not mentioning this function at all points to the former. If weapon category truly was important in this way, why wasn´t it mentioned in Combat Chapter? Then again, Grapple rules and Condition mention Concentration checks but not the limit on Somatic/ non-readied Material Component spells, so...??? But I agree, people CAN read it both ways, which makes me cringe because Paizo is running organized play which depends on RAW, yet their RAW can result in such swingy results as seen for Lance attacks.

[Starglim]

Quandary wrote:

Assuming this gets some Errata attention, AFAIK composite bows should get the 2-handed damage bonus, there isn´t specific enough language saying that the +50% increase doesn´t apply to them, and since they do explicitly apply STR bonus to DMG and are wielded with 2 hands, the 50% increase should apply per RAW (+50% to the allowed STR bonus, per bow rating), which conflicts with RAI as I understand.

First, they absolutely don't need it. Second, ranged weapons in general for most purposes, and projectile weapons for all purposes, are neither one-handed nor two-handed. They're a separate sub-table and sub-heading in the weapon rules:

p.141 wrote:

Melee and Ranged Weapons

.
.
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons
This designation .. indicates whether a melee weapon .. is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
.
.
Two-Handed: .. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

In the last section particularly, the designers have almost gone out of their way to reiterate that this benefit applies only to melee.

[Quandary]

OH yeah, I agree bows don´t need it :-)
I wasn´t referring to the weapon class types at all,
but to the rules for appling STR to DMG in the Combat Chapter
(which I´ve repeated in my previous posts here that I believe is the basis for the wording in Equipment chapter.)

In the Combat Chapter it says:

Quote:

Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.

Composite Bows would appear to qualify for that.

Earlier in the section, we are only told to apply STR to DMG for melee and thrown weapons, so POSSIBLY that could be used as the basis for restricting the 2-handed basis to melee and thrown weapons, but IMHO the ´melee or thrown´ restriction really should be in the two-handed wording itself. Since composite bows´ own wording allows them STR to DMG, it seems per RAW they have the relevant mechanic in place to be increased by 50% ´when wielding a weapon two-handed´.

[reefwood]

A somewhat interesting debate this has turned into. Although, I am in the camp that believes the rules are pretty clear on 2 hands being needed to add "Str bonus x1.5" to damage.

I don't feel like looking up each section and quoting them, but the amount of Str mod added to damage is based on how you hold a weapon. Not so much the type of weapon. Although, certain weapons can only be held one way, light weapons get an exception, and weapons in your off-hand are treated differently as well...so, I can see why it is confusing, but this is what the Damage section of the Combat chapter says:

1) If you hold a weapon in one hand, you get to add the Str bonus to damage.

2) If you hold a weapon in two hands, you get to add "Str bonus x1.5" to damage. But you can't get this higher damage with light weapons.

3) Additionally, if you hold a weapon in your off-hand, it only gets half your Str bonus added to damage.

Now...normally, you can only wield a two-handed weapon in 2 hands, so it usually gets the "Str bonus x1.5" but this is not because it is a two-handed weapon. It gets the higher damage because you are holding it in two hands. This may seem minor, but it is an important distinction which simplifies the answer to the opening poster's question. If you could wield a two-handed weapon in one hand (which is possible in certain cases), it would only add the Str bonus to damage, and if you wielded it in your off-hand, it would only add half your Str bonus to damage. Yep, that's right...a two-handed weapon only adding half your Str bonus to damage! But I don't know if there is a situation where this would be possible. I almost said a two-weapon fighter with a bastard sword in each hand, but as others have pointed out, a bastard sword is a one-handed weapon (despite most needing two hand to wield it).

EDIT: Also, the posted who mentioned bows as being two-handed weapons does bring up a good point...and as s/he stated... not that bows should add "Str mod x1.5" to damage but pointing out that the rules don't do the best job of saying that you shouldn't add the higher Str bonus to bonus. Although, I think the bow description does say that you can't add Str bonus to bows...unless they are composite, and even then, not more than the composite bonus... but if you had a Str mod of +2, I am not sure if the rules clearly state that you wouldn't add the full composite bonus to a bow with a +3 composite bonus (cos Str +2 x1.5 is +3). I know that is not the case, but the rules may not say that in the clearest way.

[Ravingdork]

All we need to do to find out the designer's intent on the lance issue is to find an official stat block of a mounted combatenet wielding a lance. The numbers shall show us the way.

The Knight in the NPC gallery, for example, wields a lance ADN rides a combat trained heavy horse. His lance damage is listed as 1d8+4/x3 despite having 18 strength. This leads me to believe that you only get one-handed damage while using it one-handed from a mount.

FAQ'd it anyways.

[Tangible Delusions]

Ravingdork wrote:

All we need to do to find out the designer's intent on the lance issue is to find an official stat block of a mounted combatenet wielding a lance. The numbers shall show us the way.

I've seen it the other way as well, unfortunately

I've been doing conversion for my CotCT campaign and there is one that had 19 Str and a +2 lance with Weapon Specialization that does 1d8+10 (Granted it is 3.5 but I don't think any of the wording has changed between 3.5 and PF)

[Ravingdork]

Tangible Delusions wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

All we need to do to find out the designer's intent on the lance issue is to find an official stat block of a mounted combatenet wielding a lance. The numbers shall show us the way.

I've seen it the other way as well, unfortunately

Mind citing your source then?

[TwilightKnight]

I think this is a case where "common sense" should be applied to RAW. Ask yourself why does a weapon used with two hands get a 50% buff to damage? It would seem that it is due to your ability to bring more force to the blow. Of course this is an abstract simulation and there will be many would will tell you that other factors have more impact on the damage a weapon deals. In any case, it would seem reasonable to conclude that using a weapon with one hand, regardless of the weapon type, would result in only x1 strength to damage, including lances. The extra force (double) is due to the horses momentum being used in the blow. I suppose it is reasonable to say that if the rider used both hands on the lance, he could increase the force of the blow at the last minute and gain the extra 50%. Using this logic (I know right?!?) the composite longbow's damage is not affected directly by the user, but by it's own strength rating. Therefore, no 50% boost.

[John Spalding]

To be overly focused on text:

"This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls."

Each part is broken up by a comma. Assuming normal usage of commas there are not many possible reasons for those commas to be there. There are no clauses to separate, descriptors that need to be separated, etc. The best explanation for why a comma would be warranted is to separate items on a list.

If you wanted to keep the two hand requirement wouldn't you draft the line differently.

That said, the 3.5 FAQ which covered analogous lance rules which addressed power attack bonus and how many hands were on a lance (pg 49), states that you do not get the 2 hand ratio for PA.

[Russ Taylor]

Tangible Delusions wrote:

I've been doing conversion for my CotCT campaign and there is one that had 19 Str and a +2 lance with Weapon Specialization that does 1d8+10 (Granted it is 3.5 but I don't think any of the wording has changed between 3.5 and PF)

Said NPC (Lashton in Skeletons of Scarwall, PF #11) isn't using a shield, so he's two-handing that lance to get that damage.

When a two-handed weapon becomes a one-handed weapon for you, regardless of the cause, it dealings on-handed bonus damage when you use it in just one hand. Pretty simple really.

[karlbadmanners]

Perhaps the notion that a two handed sword wielded one handed(bastard sword or monkey gripped 2hander) does 1.5 is because the weapon is heavier and therefore has extra "oomph" in the swing. Although honestly I'd probably say no lol.