I am not worrying about feats or fighting styles. If you wanted to make the most front line Arcane Dualist/Eldritch Knight character what would you do for levels and classes?
Would you go into Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, or Ranger?
At what level would you go EK, would you go to EK?
Thanks
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Have you looked at the Arcane Duelist archetype for bards in the APG?
At 10th level they can cast in medium armor, at 15th they can cast in heavy. They get a bonded weapon that they can use for somatic components (read: don't need a free hand). They get all the anti-mage combat feats as bonus feats at the appropriate levels, and get combat casting for free at like 2nd. They also get a perform that adds magic to a weapon (eventually multiple weapons). Oh, and arcane strike is gratis at level 1.
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Have you looked at the Arcane Duelist archetype for bards in the APG?
At 10th level they can cast in medium armor, at 15th they can cast in heavy. They get a bonded weapon that they can use for somatic components (read: don't need a free hand). They get all the anti-mage combat feats as bonus feats at the appropriate levels, and get combat casting for free at like 2nd. They also get a perform that adds magic to a weapon (eventually multiple weapons). Oh, and arcane strike is gratis at level 1.
so uber gish?
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More-or-less. Especially when you consider the verbal-only 2nd-level bard spell Gallant Inspiration (immediate action cast, +2d4 circumstance bonus to an attack roll or skill check, declared after failure is confirmed).
So pick up a proficiency feat for a really good weapon if you want, but other than that the archetype is exactly the "Gish" most people want. I know I like it.
More-or-less. Especially when you consider the verbal-only 2nd-level bard spell Gallant Inspiration (immediate action cast, +2d4 circumstance bonus to an attack roll or skill check, declared after failure is confirmed).
So pick up a proficiency feat for a really good weapon if you want, but other than that the archetype is exactly the "Gish" most people want. I know I like it.
Did you read the OP or even the tittle? I know of the class, thus why it is in the name of the thread. So a simple go 100% Arcane dualist?
P.S. My main concern is HP and + to Hit, so the EK seems like the logical choice. D10 hit die and full BAB, yes please, but I don't want to leave out any really good abilities for this purpose.
Honestly I would probably go full Arcane Duelist. I feel the class abilities coupled with inspire courage offer enough to make up for the lack of full bab and hit dice. If you put your favored class bonus into HP each time you actually end up with the same amount of HP (on average) as you would have if you went into EK.
For my PFS character I used an Half Elf Arcane Duelist bard with the ancestral weapon to get a falcata.
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Did you read the OP or even the tittle? I know of the class, thus why it is in the name of the thread. So a simple go 100% Arcane dualist?More-or-less. Especially when you consider the verbal-only 2nd-level bard spell Gallant Inspiration (immediate action cast, +2d4 circumstance bonus to an attack roll or skill check, declared after failure is confirmed).
So pick up a proficiency feat for a really good weapon if you want, but other than that the archetype is exactly the "Gish" most people want. I know I like it.
If you want an arcane gish, yes. That's the only way to cast in heavy armor without stilling almost all of your spells (or just taking the spell failure). You also get to be that character from 1-20.
Then again, if you did a <9-level arcane> 9/<Martial> 1/EK 10 you could cast everything as still and get up to 8th level spells doing it (9th it you cast them normal). You'd also have the same BAB as the arcane duelist, and about the same number of feats. You wouldn't get Gallant Inspiration though. However, this build kinda forces you to suck for the first several levels.If you went Wiz 5/<Martial> 5/EK 10 you could get to 6th level stilled (or 7th level normal) spells still, and also have a BAB of 17. Again, this forces you to suck for several levels due to balancing your two classes. Unless you did free-hand fighter (which gets good dodge bonuses to AC) and went dex-focused, in which case you could pull it off okay.
It should be noted that an EK has trouble with even light armor since Arcane Armor Training requires your swift action, as does arcane strike. The final class ability of EK would thus likely end up being unused as you'll want to arcane-strike a lot.
Options:
A) If you want to be a fighter-type with supportive magical abilities, Arcane Duelist. Or maybe Sorc 1/DD 10/Martial 9.
B) If you want to be a caster who can stab things, a casting-focused EK build.
C) If you want something that hops between fighter-style and mage-style, martial-focused EK build.
TLDR: Lots of options, Arcane Duelist is the only well crafted one from the get-go, but its attractiveness depends on what you're looking for.
More-or-less. Especially when you consider the verbal-only 2nd-level bard spell Gallant Inspiration (immediate action cast, +2d4 circumstance bonus to an attack roll or skill check, declared after failure is confirmed).
So pick up a proficiency feat for a really good weapon if you want, but other than that the archetype is exactly the "Gish" most people want. I know I like it.Did you read the OP or even the tittle? I know of the class, thus why it is in the name of the thread. So a simple go 100% Arcane dualist?
P.S. My main concern is HP and + to Hit, so the EK seems like the logical choice. D10 hit die and full BAB, yes please, but I don't want to leave out any really good abilities for this purpose.
The HP will even out if you take bard as your favored class and HP as your favored class bonus (d8+1 averages 5.5, d10 averages 5.5). Personally, I'd go 100% arcane duelist bard, because the class features you get are half the point of it (plus you won't qualify for some of those bonus feats that help you kill casters if you jump out of it early).
The only reason I see for not going full Arcane Duelist is the lack of BAB. At 15 you bonuses mostly make up for that between class features and buff spells but you still end up with +15/+10/+5 in the end. If that 4 the iterative attack is important to you then EK is the way to go.
So go fighter 1, great for first level for the Hit points and the bonus feat. The 10 levels of Bard, you want that that casting in medium armor so you can wear Mitheral Full Plate seeing as you can due that fighter level. Then grab 9 levels of EK on top of that. You won't get spell critical but who cares as you will be using your swift action for Arcane strike +5 damage at 20th level anyways. Then to take the trait Magical Knack trait so you are Caster level 20 to get that +5 damage with Arcane Strike.
In the end you end up with +17/+12/+7/+2, 18 spell levels, 20 caster level, and 7 bonus feats. Not to shabby if you ask me.
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I'm fleshing out an Arcane Duelist Bard 16/Fighter 4. She's mainly going to be a skirmishing fighter and buffer. I'm going for feats like Vital Strike and Sneak Attack, and the fighter's Armor Training 1 lets me wear medium armor and still move full speed. All of her points are going into physical stats - at high levels she'll probably need items to cast her highest level spells - but as she'll mostly have buff spells memorized to help her and her party in a fight, this won't be much of an issue.
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by the way the blade thirst ability is nice but besides the VERY rare occasions when i REALLY need x weapon propery i don't ever see this class turning off inspire competence.
The fluff is there but is the execution?
This archetype couldn't 'duel' a spellcaster as he lacks the spells to lockdown/nullify casters. A Fighter eats his face.
I'm sure it's not meant to be better than either class. Most players don't want that anyways. The better question is if it can do enough of both to be value to the party. The bard chassis provides good skills and interesting other abilities. The end result is if the class is effective in combat AND different from ground-up gishes (clerics/druids mainly), then it'll have accomplished it's design.
Anybody want to crunch some numbers?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The above statement is correct: The AD isn't intended to be better at fighting than a fighter or better at spelling than a caster, but to be reasonably competent at both, with a more fighterish slant to its class abilities and the ability to be a martial/arcane combo class from level 1-20 without need to multiclass or prestige class.
Personally, I find that gin=ving up caster levels, skill points and class features for a higher BaB isn't worth it. At least in this case. A straight arcane duelist should get you the character you want, no need to make your build more complicated than it needs to be.
The above statement is correct: The AD isn't intended to be better at fighting than a fighter or better at spelling than a caster, but to be reasonably competent at both, with a more fighterish slant to its class abilities and the ability to be a martial/arcane combo class from level 1-20 without need to multiclass or prestige class.
The AD is a great class for small groups. If you have 2 or 3 players this class covers enough of the bases to get you by. An AD and Rogue for two player game would work great. Just enough healing to keep you alive, enough magic to get past stuff requiring it, and enough fighting ability to allow the rogue to flank. Very sweet!
I am not worrying about feats or fighting styles. If you wanted to make the most front line Arcane Dualist/Eldritch Knight character what would you do for levels and classes?
Would you go into Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, or Ranger?
At what level would you go EK, would you go to EK?
Thanks
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/EK 10
The penalty Sorcerers take to spell progression is too strong for this build. Your character is a glass canon for much of it's life, but ultimately will dominate the battlefield. Specialize in transmutation, go with low-level defense spells like mirror-image, displacement, shield, mage armor. Mix in buff spells (Enlarge Person, Stat boosts, Haste, etc), and stay the heck away from any spell that requires a save DC. You kill things with your sword, not spells. Your Int should be no more than what's needed to cast the spell. Feat wise, focus on dealing damage, not defense. Your AC will suck w/o spells, so if you're surprised you need to kill them before they can hit you. (Combat Reflexes + Enlarge Person + Step Up Feat Chain)
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I wanted Arcane Duelist over Fighter because I'm modelling this character off of Grace from Saving Grace. She's wild, careless, charismatic and daring. I'm taking the fighter levels mostly for feats taht get me through some tough feat chains as quickly as possible to get to spring attack as soon as I can. The armor training is a nice bonus. I can't even take advantage of the +16 BaB as I'd like because I get that at 20th level and I don't ahve a feat that level, so I can't get greater vital strike...unless I delay my fourth level of fighter until then. Hrm...
Anyway- because of the character's personality I'm going for the bard based build - but she's mostly a fighter, not a caster. :) Sometimes I approach a character from the "I need a class ______. What will her personality be?" This time I'm approaching it from the personality standpoint first - which kinda pushed me into this build.
I'm running this build through Kingmaker:
Race: Human
Stats - 20 point buy
Str: 13 (3)
Dex: 15 (7) +2 (Human bonus)
Con: 13 (3)
Int: 12 (2)
Wis: 8 (-2)
Cha: 15 (7)
Favored class: Bard
Archetypes: Arcane Duelist (bard) / Weapon Master - Aldori Dueling Sword (fighter)
Skills:
Max out: Intimidate, Perception, UMD, Acrobatics.
Traits:
Sword Scion (Kingmaker players guide), Magical Knack (Bard)
Level - Class - feats
1 - Fighter - Exotic Wpn prof (Aldori dueling sword), Wpn Finesse (Human), Wnp focus (Aldori dueling sword) (Fighter Bonus)
2 - Bard - Arcane Strike (Bonus feat)
3 - Fighter - Furious Focus, Power Attack (Fighter Bonus)
4 - Bard - +1 STR, Combat Casting (bonus feat)
5 - Bard - Toughness
6 - Bard -
7 - Bard - Leadership
8 - Bard - +1 CON, Disruptive (bonus feat)
9 - Bard - (open feat - Maybe imp. sunder/ Iron will/ ?)
10 - Fighter
11 - Eldritch Knight - Wpn spec (aldori dueling sword), Imp Critical (Aldori dueling sword) (EK Bonus)
12 - EK - +1 STR
13 - EK - Dreadful Carnage
14 - EK
15 - EK - GWF (Aldori dueling sword), Critical Focus (EK bonus)
16 - EK - +1 CHA
17 - EK - Staggering Critical
18 - EK
19 - EK - Aldori Dueling Mastery, GWS (Aldori dueling sword) (EK Bonus)
20 - EK - +1 DEX
I think the Dragon Disciple might work well with the AD. The Stat boosts and Natural armor along with limited spell progression isn't too bad. Say 12 Bard 8 DD.
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I wish I had the option of Arcane Duelist when I created my newest Pathfinder Society character because it would have been perfect.
Herger Storhoi, Former member of the Ulfen Guard, personal bodyguard to the Primogen Throne of Taldor, current Pathfinder:
Human Male Fighter 1/Bard 2
S:17 (18 at 4th level)
D: 10
C: 16
I: 8
W: 10
Chr 14 (15 at 8th lvl, 16 at 12th)
(20 pt buy)
Feats: Weapon Focus: Battleaxe (Dazzling Display at 5th), Power Attack, Cleave, Arcane Strike (Lingering Performance?, Lunge?, Improved Critical? Expanded Arcana? not sure past 5-7th level yet).
Spells: Cause Fear, Expeditious Retreat, Comprehend Languages (eventually: Heroism, Alter Self, Scare, Haste, Fear, Good Hope, Freedom of Movement, Shout, etc).
He saved up his coppers and has mithril chainmail and a heavy wooden shield (soon to be +1 mithril chain and +1 heavy darkwood shield), and a masterwork battleaxe (with Arcane Strike, it's as good as +1 for now). He's an Intimidate specialist, coupled with multiple means of stacking fear conditions (Impressive Taldor trait, Cause Fear, Scare and Fear, Dirge of Doom, Dazzling Display), and with Expeditious Retreat, Heroism and Inspire Bravery, he'll be a decent skirmisher until higher levels.
No he's not optimized or anything, but he IS a lot of fun....
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so uber gish?Have you looked at the Arcane Duelist archetype for bards in the APG?
At 10th level they can cast in medium armor, at 15th they can cast in heavy. They get a bonded weapon that they can use for somatic components (read: don't need a free hand). They get all the anti-mage combat feats as bonus feats at the appropriate levels, and get combat casting for free at like 2nd. They also get a perform that adds magic to a weapon (eventually multiple weapons). Oh, and arcane strike is gratis at level 1.
They still use the bard spell list...so not so much. Although I suppose you can just get the healing and buffing spells...but you really don't get gish with the bard spell list.
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Also, if anyone can think of a better feat list to significantly up my duelist's melee damage or a must have spell i haven't picked.
Perhaps dazzling display, shatter defences and conrugan smash, furious focus and dreadful carnage would benefit the party more than the step up line i've currently taken...
By the way-what unique role is this filling, personally on paper it looks to be a less fighty, more party buff focused inquisitor (runs away from the can of worms)
If you want to up your damage, Arcane Strike (free with Arcane Duelist), Power Attack...and then I don't know what else you can do, really. You can't leverage your attack bonuses to give yourself the damage to be relevent anymore. I like Dazzling Display because it helps the party, and some other fear effects stacking on that make the fight a lot easier. Furious focus will only help with the first attack - I"m not sure that's helpful enough. Also, what weapon are you planning on using?
Fooling around with my Arcane Duelist / Fighter....8 levels of fighter becomes pretty tempting - weapon training and more feats are quite nice. As a spring attacking skirmisher, some of the new APG bard spells are pretty handy. Expeditous retreat, Feather Step, Mirror image and Haste all call my name!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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M'kay, must have come across wrong. Never said it should outfight a fight a fighter or outcast a wizard. I meant the name arcane duelist has certain connotations to it. Just wish it had a little bit more of an 'I fight mages' ability to it. Those that free spellbreaker feat doesn't help when the wizard still easily makes his check to cast dimension door away from you.
Maybe the feature of your bardsong imposing a penalty or interfering with all casting or the ability to d/door as an immediate action etc.
Ah, I see.
Yeah, the name on this one was troublesome, actually. I never did think up one that I really liked and sent along about 4 or 5 ideas (a placeholder at one time was spellsword, which I think snuck in there in one of the class abilities even after the final name change).
I wouldn't read any more into "arcane duelist" being someone who duels wizards than I would read a "prestige class" as being something that has to be "prestigious" (in the common sense of the word) within the game world. "Prestige class" really just means "secondary class" or "specialist class," and "arcane duelist" just means "guy who does magic (arcane) and fights stuff (duelist)."
If anything, he's a guy who duels (with regular fighters) magically, rather than a guy who duels (fighterishly) with regular casters.
As far as impeding spellcasters, you could easily enough replace Inspire Courage with a reverse Dweomercraft (from the Magician ability list), debuffing spellcasters on their CLC, concentration, and attacks with spells and SLAs. That's a perfectly reasonable swap if you want your AD to focus more on direct anti-caster stuff.
The Big Problem here is the arcane duelist I see having a hard time fitting in. Usually If I play casters I max my casting stat and focus on save or dies and B/C. The Bard lacks the list or high stat for this.
If I play meleer's It's generally easy to optimise a barb, pally] , whatever.I'm justy not seeing it.
In my opinion your build is suffering from a jack of all trades mentality taken too far.
In all honestly you don't need that much Cha from your build points. Starting with a 12~13 is fine with the arcane duelist precisely because you aren't going to be throwing too much save resistant stuff at your foes. Generally you'll be dealing in direct death and buffs, with utility on the side.
With that in mind I would suggest the following stats (assuming a 20 point build):
Str 18
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 7
Cha 12
Your feats are good -- for other people, but not for yourself. With a bard you need to be selfish of your feats, your spells and class abilities will help the party so your feats need to help you. In this case I would recommend dropping most of those flanking feats and focus in on improving your AC and to hit rolls. Honestly with power attack and your bardic abilities your actual damage will be fine, it is simply making up for the to hit number that you need to focus on. IF you are not going to use a buckler then I suggest a nice reach weapon like the long spear. This improves your damage that little bit more and keeps you from front lining (while still keeping you up close and personal) as much. Cleave and great cleave are good tactical feats for a bard since they use your best attack bonus on multiple attacks. The choice of Furious Focus was good, since it helps on your best attack. I would recommend Arcane Blast as a possible back up ranged attack since it offers the bard something it is generally lacking from it's magic. Since you are light on bardic music rounds lingering performance can easily help you stretch what you have out better. I would suggest that parry spell could be a nice choice for the bard against actual casters since you do have dispel and greater dispel magic to counter with. Disruptive spell might also be a good choice as well even though the DC of the Concentration check is a bit low. At high level spell perfection could help you with getting spells off to greater effect than you could normally accomplish since it gives your spells the ability to go up to 9th level (instead of your normal 6th... even if you just use this to freely boost the DC of your dominate monster with heighten spell or quicken your fifth level spells you'll see nice abilities come from it). Toughness, Improved initiative and quicken spell would round out your choices nicely (as would the always useful if not great weapon focus).
Spell wise I would suggest a different mix of magic:
Generally the spells you'll want are utility, save independent, or buffing. Examples include:
1st level:
Vanish (invisibility as a first level spell is always nice)
Feather Step
Touch of Gracelessness (even if they save they will be easier to deal with)
Saving Finale
Unseen Servant
2nd level:
Gallant Inspiration
Glitterdust
Mirror Image
Delay Poison
Invisibility
Silence
3rd level:
Dispel Magic (unlike the other casters, bards can be useful simply countering spells and providing performance buffs to the party -- though this won't be their regular activity)
Haste
Good Hope
Feather Step, Mass
Tiny Hut
Purging Finale
4th level:
Heroic Finale
Summon Monster 4
Dimension Door
Freedom of Movement
Break Enchantment (Not needed too often but when you do it is useful)
5th level:
Dispel Magic, Greater
Summon Monster 5
Bard's Escape
Frozen Note
6th level:
Brillant Inspiration
Getaway
Animate Objects
Summon Monster 6
Shout, Greater
Charm Monster (not used often but with the perfect spell could be worth while)
Just my opinions of course.
Generally the spells you'll want are utility, save independent, or buffing. Examples include:
1st level:
Vanish (invisibility as a first level spell is always nice)
Feather Step
Touch of Gracelessness (even if they save they will be easier to deal with)
Saving Finale
Unseen Servant2nd level:
Gallant Inspiration
Glitterdust
Mirror Image
Delay Poison
Invisibility
Silence3rd level:
Dispel Magic (unlike the other casters, bards can be useful simply countering spells and providing performance buffs to the party -- though this won't be their regular activity)
Haste
Good Hope
Feather Step, Mass
Tiny Hut
Purging Finale4th level:
Heroic Finale
Summon Monster 4
Dimension Door
Freedom of Movement
Break Enchantment (Not needed too often but when you do it is useful)5th level:
Dispel Magic, Greater
Summon Monster 5
Bard's Escape
Frozen Note6th level:
Brillant Inspiration
Getaway
Animate Objects
Summon Monster 6
Shout, Greater
Charm Monster (not used often but with the perfect spell could be worth while)
Great spell list! Thanks.
Level - Class - feats
1 - Fighter - Exotic Wpn prof (Aldori dueling sword), Wpn Finesse (Human), Wnp focus (Aldori dueling sword) (Fighter Bonus)
2 - Bard - Arcane Strike (Bonus feat)
3 - Fighter - Furious Focus, Power Attack (Fighter Bonus)
4 - Bard - +1 STR, Combat Casting (bonus feat)
5 - Bard - Toughness
6 - Bard -
7 - Bard - Leadership
8 - Bard - +1 CON, Disruptive (bonus feat)
9 - Bard - (open feat - Maybe imp. sunder/ Iron will/ ?)
10 - Fighter
11 - Eldritch Knight - Wpn spec (aldori dueling sword), Imp Critical (Aldori dueling sword) (EK Bonus)
12 - EK - +1 STR
13 - EK - Dreadful Carnage
14 - EK
15 - EK - GWF (Aldori dueling sword), Critical Focus (EK bonus)
16 - EK - +1 CHA
17 - EK - Staggering Critical
18 - EK
19 - EK - Aldori Dueling Mastery, GWS (Aldori dueling sword) (EK Bonus)
20 - EK - +1 DEX
Questions, what about eschew materials feat? Do bard spells not have a material component?
If you are going to be a melee bard, you NEED Heroism. +2 to hit, skill checks and saves for 10 minutes per level? Yes please! And it stacks with Inspire Courage.
You could take Heroism... or you can wait a level and get good hope instead.
Heroism affects one target, and doesn't add to damage.
Good Hope affects multiple targets and adds to damage, in addition to affecting ability checks, which Heroism doesn't do as well.
Now if you aren't worried about buffing your party too, then yes heroism as it lasts longer and is lower level. BUT if you want to help the party as well, in addition to getting bonus damage, then Good Hope is your baby.
Spells I would consider for the feat:
Dispel Magic (for quickening), and greater dispel magic which is a fifth level spell for a bard and can be quickened too. Having them be disruptive would fit the theme well too.
Good Hope, and Haste of course.
Greater Shout could use some love from maximizing or empowering but this would be a fairly weak use of the feat.
Vanish, quickened, extended is a possibility.
Grease, widened, disruptive, quickened.
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If you are going to be a melee bard, you NEED Heroism. +2 to hit, skill checks and saves for 10 minutes per level? Yes please! And it stacks with Inspire Courage.
You could take Heroism... or you can wait a level and get good hope instead.
Heroism affects one target, and doesn't add to damage.
Good Hope affects multiple targets and adds to damage, in addition to affecting ability checks, which Heroism doesn't do as well.
Now if you aren't worried about buffing your party too, then yes heroism as it lasts longer and is lower level. BUT if you want to help the party as well, in addition to getting bonus damage, then Good Hope is your baby.
I'd argue that melee-focused bards need to be more focused on self-buffing than party buffing. I'd also argue that you can get both, since they are two different levels. Heroism lasts a long, long time (twice as long with a lesser extend metamagic rod) and stacks with lots of other buffs. Since it lasts so long, you don't need to spend an action in combat to have it's benefits. True it doesn't add to damage, but with Power Attack that's not a problem. You can party buff with Good Hope, as well as with Inspire Courage and Haste, etc, sure, but running nearly all day with a +2 to hit, skill checks and saves helps close the gap between this build and more martial characters.
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Spells I would consider for the feat:
Dispel Magic (for quickening), and greater dispel magic which is a fifth level spell for a bard and can be quickened too. Having them be disruptive would fit the theme well too.
Good Hope, and Haste of course.
Greater Shout could use some love from maximizing or empowering but this would be a fairly weak use of the feat.
Vanish, quickened, extended is a possibility.
Grease, widened, disruptive, quickened.
Remember that the feat only affects a single spell, and requires 15 ranks of spellcraft, meaning you can have this effect for at most 3 spells. That, and it requires 3 metamagic feats. That's a lot of feat investment, so if you go that route I hope you're ready to be cast-heavy. It also helps other feats that give a numerical increase to the spell's effect, to-hit chance, DC, etc, but that's even more cast-heavy.
Eschew Material feat guys? Is it needed?
@ Twowolves: The only reason I would choose one or the other is due to the fact spells known are so limited. Generally the save and skill buffs are going to be nice... but by 7+ levels you'll be able to get two or three buffs (including bardic performance) off in one round -- and one round of buffing is generally acceptable for a gish (especially when you are getting two or three solid buffs, and they all affect everyone on the party). Most the time you aren't in combat those other bonuses don't matter as much. I understand the thought that self buffing is going to be important, and respect that fact but when I sit down and I think, "Do I buff myself, or do I buff the whole party with more damage to boot" I'll almost always go with the party wide buff -- especially when it actually helps me more than the self buff does. However again, both are valuable spells, and have good reasons to be taken. I find that while the bard might be a slight bit light on damage from himself the entire party getting all the bonuses he can provide on top of his well within acceptable damage potential means that he is a welcomed and celebrated addition too any table no matter the number of players already there (at least from a PC perspective) and since it doesn't hurt the bard to provide for everyone while providing for himself there isn't much reason to not do so.
@ StabbittyDoom: For three metamagic feats I agree this is a hard sell... however lets consider our metamagics. Quicken hits the list quickly since it will benefit almost any spell you'll take with this feat. Extend as mentioned by Twowolves has some serious value for a bard. Other metamagics the bard might look at include: Empower -- many of his spells have variable effects, from mirror image to gallant inspiration, to greater shout, and even the summon monsters if you use it on the lower level lists (my love of lantern archons is well documented so I'll not point out *again* what a wonderful summon they are for a bard). The cure spells and such also can benefit from empowering even if they are unlikely to do so. Also as already mentioned if you don't like empower disruptive spell is a great metamagic feat for a bard that has to deal with other casters.
So if we limit the bard to three metamagic feats I would suggest that the following would generally be welcomed for him: Quicken, Extend, and Disruptive spell. The bard doesn't have a lot of feats he needs fortunately and the arcane duelist even less than most since he gets so many free feats from his class. Power attack, weapon focus, and cleave in addition to furious focus just about round out his feat list for damage potential.
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The biggest problem I see for an arcane duelist bard is the fact he has so much he's going to want to do on each round and not enough actions to make it all happen. He's got several things that eat up standard actions, many options for his move actions, and again a huge amount of things to do with his swift and immediate action choices. The key will be choosing wisely for each round what to spend your actions on -- especially those swift/immediate actions.
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@ the captain:
Eschew materials would be welcome if you want a heavier shield than a buckler. Generally with a bard though I would simply stick with the buckler as it gives me the most options for what to do on each round (two handed, sword and board, or casting can all easily be handled with the buckler without losing actions).
I agree with Abraham; buckler is the way to go for a Bard. You get the same AC as a light shield, only 1 less AC than a heavy shield, and you can still use that hand for anything you want to without having to spend extra actions fiddling with the shield. Sure, you lose the AC bonus if you use that hand for anything other than defending, but that's not a big deal compared to losing actions dropping and picking up (or wearing/readying, or whatever) your shield.
Also, for race, I think Half-Elf is the strongest choice. They get the best favored class bonus (+1 round of music per level, which is a nearly 50% increase in rounds available once you get higher level) and they can take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Falcata (the strongest weapon, mechanically speaking, and it's a one-hander even) with a racial feature replacement. Gnomes are also OK, as they get the same favored class bonus, but they lose out on weapon damage, strength, and speed.
Also, for race, I think Half-Elf is the strongest choice. They get the best favored class bonus (+1 round of music per level, which is a nearly 50% increase in rounds available once you get higher level) and they can take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Falcata (the strongest weapon, mechanically speaking, and it's a one-hander even) with a racial feature replacement.
The extra spells known for being a human bard are way better than extra rounds of bardic performance, I think; I've never seen a Pathfinder bard run out of performance (maybe at level 1), and now it's even less likely with the Lingering Performance feat in the APG.
Likewise, the human's extra feat means that he can afford to take an Exotic Weapon Proficiency later as well, if he wanted to.
The half-elf's skill and save bonuses are nice, though.
The extra spells known for being a human bard are way better than extra rounds of bardic performance, I think; I've never seen a Pathfinder bard run out of performance (maybe at level 1)
Having played a Pathfinder Bard from level 1 to level 13, it's very easy to run out of performance rounds. This is even more true if you use 3.5 material, but it's still easy to burn up all your performance rounds even without that.
Also, the extra spells known is a really bad choice in general. Remember, you have to choose spells of a level one lower than your maximum. That means for your first three levels you get basically no benefit at all (extra cantrips, whee), and by the time you get the ability to take extra 1st level spells you've probably taken everything you plan to use with any frequency anyway. Repeat for every higher tier of spell. It might be OK for one or two levels along the line, but it's not something you'd want to use even most of the time.
and now it's even less likely with the Lingering Performance feat in the APG.
This only kicks in at fairly high levels with any efficiency. Until 7th level, it costs a standard action to start a performance, and even at 7th it takes a move, meaning you can't full attack, attack and move, cast a spell and move, or charge. It's not until 13th that you can do it as a swift action and still get essentially a free turn.
Likewise, the human's extra feat means that he can afford to take an Exotic Weapon Proficiency later as well, if he wanted to.
But not from the start. I don't know about other people, but I dislike playing characters who have to level up twice before they can actually use the weapon they're designed to use (and then you have to find one, which can be problematic with exotic weapons depending on the DM). Also note that a Human Bard can't take Weapon Focus: Falcata until 5th level, while the Half-Elf can take it at 3rd.
The Falcata is insane! Getting a keen one is just not right.
I think I will stick with my sun blade, does not require a feat.
The extra spells known for being a human bard are way better than extra rounds of bardic performance, I think; I've never seen a Pathfinder bard run out of performance (maybe at level 1)Having played a Pathfinder Bard from level 1 to level 13, it's very easy to run out of performance rounds. This is even more true if you use 3.5 material, but it's still easy to burn up all your performance rounds even without that.
I'm not doubting your experience, but I haven't seen it in the past 14 PFS modules (I think almost all of them had a bard). Are you using Inspire Competence a lot?
and now it's even less likely with the Lingering Performance feat in the APG.This only kicks in at fairly high levels with any efficiency.
Huh? You say that it's easy to run out of performance at low levels, and effectively multiplying your amount of Inspire Courage and Inspire Competence rounds (conservatively assuming your fights last about five rounds, so you play for three rounds and let it linger for two) wouldn't change that? I find that very unusual.
Likewise, the human's extra feat means that he can afford to take an Exotic Weapon Proficiency later as well, if he wanted to.But not from the start.
<shrug>
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He's saying that Lingering Performance isn't worth the standard action you have to burn every 3rd round to make it pay off until 13th level, when it's a free action to start one. And I kinda agree.
As for Good Hope vs Heroism, the arguement that your spell choices are limited isn't as valid with the APG (human bards get more spells as a favored class option, and there is the Expanded Arcana feat as well). And honestly, I'd take Haste over Good Hope any day (assuming there isn't a wizard/sorcerer to pick up that slack). To me, casting Good Hope, Haste, and starting Inspire Courage are all great things for a buff bard to do, but it's a lot of actions for an arcane duelist to burn before he ever gets to make an attack roll.
He's saying that Lingering Performance isn't worth the standard action you have to burn every 3rd round to make it pay off until 13th level, when it's a free action to start one. And I kinda agree.
Which is why I suggested that you can play for three rounds and linger for two. That means that you only need another standard action in the (unusual, in my experience) case where your battle lasts longer than 5 rounds.
Maybe I'm the outlier, but generally I find it fairly easy to predict how long a battle will last within a round or so.