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Gang Up: Allows you to "count as flanking" an enemy that is threatened by at least two of your allies.
Outflank: A teamwork feat that allows you and a flanking ally with the feat to get a +4 bonus for flanking instead of +2, and make attacks of opportunity when your partner scores a critical hit.
If one of the allies threatening the enemy, and the rogue with Gang Up, both have Outflank, do they still get the bonuses from the Outflank teamwork feat?
Yes. Although I'm not certain if you can take AoOs with ranged weapons (the best use for Gang Up). I think you can, but I've not looked into it.
Gang Up: Allows you to "count as flanking" an enemy that is threatened by at least two of your allies.
Outflank: A teamwork feat that allows you and a flanking ally with the feat to get a +4 bonus for flanking instead of +2, and make attacks of opportunity when your partner scores a critical hit.
If one of the allies threatening the enemy, and the rogue with Gang Up, both have Outflank, do they still get the bonuses from the Outflank teamwork feat?
No.
If the two people who are threatening the target the rogue with Gang up (hereafter known as "GURg", Gang Up Rogue") is threatening do not have gang up, they are not flanking the target. GURg is still flanking because he has the feat. To flank on a GU'd target with GURg without actually flanking, you would also need GU. GURg doesn't benefit from Outflank unless he's either flanking normally or GUing with an ally that has GU and Outflank as well.
I hope that was as confusing as possible.
Ice Titan, if having Gang Up would make Outflank work while using GU, how many people would you need in this hypothetical combat? Does the GURg count as a "threatening enemy" for the purposes of GU?
This is, yes, this is getting to be confusing.
C1, combatant 1, no relevant feats
C2, combatant 2, Outflank, Gang Up
C3, tGURg, Sneak Dice, Outflank, Gang Up
E, Enemy
... C1
C3 (E)
... C2
With C3 engaged in melee, Gang Up would seem to do something for C2 because C3 is "actually" "threatening" the enemy, but does Gang Up really allow C2 and C3 to count as flanking "together?"
...... C1
C3 .. (E)
...... C2
With C3 sneak attacking from ranged, do they still count as "threatening" the enemy for C2's Gang Up, or would we need a C4 for that to work?
*Flail.*
Ice Titan, if having Gang Up would make Outflank work while using GU, how many people would you need in this hypothetical combat? Does the GURg count as a "threatening enemy" for the purposes of GU?
This is, yes, this is getting to be confusing.
C1, combatant 1, no relevant feats
C2, combatant 2, Outflank, Gang Up
C3, tGURg, Sneak Dice, Outflank, Gang Up
E, Enemy... C1
C3 (E)
... C2With C3 engaged in melee, Gang Up would seem to do something for C2 because C3 is "actually" "threatening" the enemy, but does Gang Up really allow C2 and C3 to count as flanking "together?"
Yes.
Two other characters besides GURg must be threatening the enemy for Gang Up to work. If C2 were to sidestep and this were to happen:
... C1
C3 (E)
..... C2
C1 would no longer be flanking with C2, while C3 and C2 would still be flanking thanks to Gang Up.
For the purposes of Outflank, Outflank's entry states states:
Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature
If you both have gang up and are both threatening the same creature along with an ally, you are flanking the same creature, and Outflank applies.
In your original example:
... C1
C3 (E)
... C2
C1 is flanking with C2.
C3 is flanking with C1 and C2 thanks to gang up.
C2 is flanking with C3 and C1 thanks to gang up.
Because C2+C3 both have gang up, they count as flanking an enemy together. This allows them both the bonuses from Outflank.
C1 does not get the bonus from outflank. He counts as flanking with C2 but lacks the feats necessary to take advantage of any other heightened combat ability.
...... C1
C3 .. (E)
...... C2With C3 sneak attacking from ranged, do they still count as "threatening" the enemy for C2's Gang Up, or would we need a C4 for that to work?
Yes. The phrase "regardless of your actual positioning" means that as long as two people are threatening your target, you are considered to be flanking that target for all intents and purposes.
I think we just found a loophole that allows a close quarters bow sniper rogue to finally be viable without repeated hide check shenanigans. Can have these two feats in conjuncture as soon as level 1 for a human... not bad at all.
Can have these two feats in conjuncture as soon as level 1 for a human... not bad at all.
Useless correction post, but Outflank requires BAB 4, and Gang Up requires Combat Expertise.
You can use Gang Up with a ranged attack, and you can use Outflank to increase the flanking bonus to +4.
However, the rules for taking an Attack of Opportunity state that it must be a MELEE attack, thus disallowing Outflank from giving an AoO to someone with a ranged weapon.
However, as per the 2nd example, if C3 scored a critical strike it would still allow C2 to make an AoO, since C2 is capable of making a melee attack.
Even better, if C3 is wielding a whip and is within 15 feet of E, then he could actually take an AoO whenever C2 scored a critical hit. After all: While the whip doesn't threaten, it is still a melee weapon with a 15ft reach.
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You can use Gang Up with a ranged attack
no you cant
from the brand spankin new faq section:
Does the Gang Up feat from the Advanced Player's Guide (page 161) allow you to flank a foe with ranged weapons?
The Gang Up feat allows you to count as flanking so long as two of your allies are threatening your opponent. The feat makes no mention of ranged attacks being included, and since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat. (JMB, 8/13/10)
Can somebody pls explain the meaning of threatening in: You are considered to be flanking an opponent if at least two of your allies are threatening that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning.
Threatened Squares: "You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally)."
So if a goblin is standing in a square where two of your allies can attack it, then you are considered flanking. This grants you a +2 bonus on melee attack rolls against that creature, and can grant your melee attack sneak attack dice if you have that ability.
Bad diagram:
[Goblin] [Ally2]
[Ally1] [You]
All three of you are adjacent to the goblin, but none of you are in flanking position. With Gang Up, you would be considered in flanking position, because two of your allies threaten the goblin.
But note that this will NOT give you sneak attacks at range, if that's your goal.
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1) As mentioned Gang Up won't work to grant a ranged attacker flanking, so, no, it doesn't help a ranged attack get his sneak attack in. See the pointer earlier in the thread to the FAQ entry that explicitly disallows Gang Up from working for ranged attackers.
2) Spiritual Weapon's write-up explicitly says it does not flank nor provide a flanking bonus to any ally, so it wouldn't count for the purpoises of Gang Up
3) With the proper feat tree (Snap Shot and its children, a ranged attacker can help provide a different character with Gang Up benefits, since Snap Shot allows a ranged character to have a threatened area. Improved Snap Shot is where that really comes into its own, though, when the threatened area enlarges to 15'.
4) Since whips are explicitly disallowed from taking AoOs, unless the wielder has Improved Whip Mastery, he could not get the benefit of Outflank without the appropriate feat tree, and standing close enough to threaten his opponent (for a medium creature with a normal whip with the feats, that is a 10' range.)