So, I was reading about the new alternative favored class options, and I noticed that certain spellcasters of some races, have the option to add one known spell of any spell level they can cast except their highest.
Now, i'm not quite ready to go all out and say that this is imbalanced but I would think that this would be a huge boost to the spontaneous casters whose main limiting factor is their amount of know spells and I really think that this bonus is better than a lot of the other options.
My GM is thinking of removing this option from his game as he is thinking that the sorcerer will become too strong (and dwarf the wizard) and because he does not think it is on par with the other choices
What do you guys think?
Aaaargh ! Your search-fu is weak. There were several lenghty threads on this.
Bottom line: opinions vary from "overpowered" to "so what, Sorecerers have herpes anyway".
Huh? Where does "Sorecerers have herpes" come from?
|
Huh? Where does "Sorecerers have herpes" come from?Aaaargh ! Your search-fu is weak. There were several lenghty threads on this.
Bottom line: opinions vary from "overpowered" to "so what, Sorecerers have herpes anyway".
I think that's Gorbacz's amusing way of summing up the 'Sorcerers are rubbish compared to the almighty Wizard, and even this change will not make them compare in the slightest' argument
Aaaargh ! Your search-fu is weak. There were several lenghty threads on this.
Bottom line: opinions vary from "overpowered" to "so what, Sorecerers have herpes anyway".
I had the feeling that this was already out there somewhere but for some reason I really suck at finding the threads im searching for :/
Aaaargh ! Your search-fu is weak. There were several lenghty threads on this.
Bottom line: opinions vary from "overpowered" to "so what, Sorecerers have herpes anyway".
Could i have link please?
I think that's Gorbacz's amusing way of summing up the 'Sorcerers are rubbish compared to the almighty Wizard, and even this change will not make them compare in the slightest' argumentHuh? Where does "Sorecerers have herpes" come from?Aaaargh ! Your search-fu is weak. There were several lenghty threads on this.
Bottom line: opinions vary from "overpowered" to "so what, Sorecerers have herpes anyway".
Really?? I am not sure I buy that.
Yes, wizards can theorectically have every spell in the game, but ...
I actually do prefer the Wizard Class, but it has more to do with Play Style. Most other members of my gaming group much prefer the Sorcerer.
Actually, it's been shown that a specialist wizard has almost as many spells per day at most levels as a sorcerer. The big thing, though, is that they get spells a level earlier. So for half of your levels, a sorcerer is casting max level -1 spells. That's pretty huge, and a large part of the "wizards are much more powerful" thing.
|
However, when you go the specialist wizard route you trade away a large part of the wizard's true power. The ability to draw from just about any spell in the game. The spells are even removed from your spell list, so trigger items from 2 schools get taken away as well, unless you have invested in UMD.
Erm, no. You might want to read how the specialized wizard rules changed in Pathfinder.
However, when you go the specialist wizard route you trade away a large part of the wizard's true power. The ability to draw from just about any spell in the game. The spells are even removed from your spell list, so trigger items from 2 schools get taken away as well, unless you have invested in UMD.
Not in pathfinder. The only thing that changes is that they take 2 slots to prepare, and IIRC you still get a -2 spellcraft penalty to identify them.
Regardless, while the sorcerer can know only a few spells per level, even if you don't count the specialists opposed school spells, they can have the majority of the spell list.
And as said, higher level spells.
Could i have link please?Aaaargh ! Your search-fu is weak. There were several lenghty threads on this.
Bottom line: opinions vary from "overpowered" to "so what, Sorecerers have herpes anyway".
The APG Preview #1 HERE was pretty much monopolized from the beginning by this discussion.
For comparision:
10th level sorcerer, 22 Cha = 33 spells per day. 4 of which are level 5. Knows maximum 24 spells, only a single 5th level.
At level up: 35 spells per day, 5 of which are level 5.
10th level specialist wizard, 22 Int = 26 spells per day. 4 of which are level 5. Knows basic amount of 25 spells, plus any amount of bought spells, two of which are 5th level.
At level up: 30 spells per day, 4 of which are 5th level, 3 of which are 6th level.
I certainly don't think this Favored Class bonus is too powerful. Arguments have been made that the +1 per level hit point bonus is the same as the feat toughness. While true that is irrelevant.
Hit points are gold in this game. They keep you alive. Taking favored class HP give you +20 hit points that you can't get any other way. No matter what you do to gain more hit points you will always be down 20 HP over someone doing the exact same thing but choosing the Hit Points over more skills or Spells Known.
As tempting as it seems to take every level for more known spell I'd still choose HP first and I might grab few levels of Spell Known if I needed it. So I might get +17 hit points and 3 extra known spells. More likely I'd blow feat for expanded arcana and you pick it more than once to get the extra known spells then go for the Hit Points.
I'd hardly call this over powered.
I certainly don't think this Favored Class bonus is too powerful. Arguments have been made that the +1 per level hit point bonus is the same as the feat toughness. While true that is irrelevant.
Hit points are gold in this game. They keep you alive. Taking favored class HP give you +20 hit points that you can't get any other way. No matter what you do to gain more hit points you will always be down 20 HP over someone doing the exact same thing but choosing the Hit Points over more skills or Spells Known.
As tempting as it seems to take every level for more known spell I'd still choose HP first and I might grab few levels of Spell Known if I needed it. So I might get +17 hit points and 3 extra known spells. More likely I'd blow feat for expanded arcana and you pick it more than once to get the extra known spells then go for the Hit Points.
I'd hardly call this over powered.
Although I am firmly on the side of the people who think the +1 spell/level is okay, I also think that arcane casters have very good methods of damage avoidance. Fly, Mirror Image, Blink ( banned in my campaign because it is *too* good and interacts very funky with too many other defensive spells ), Improved Invisibility, etc., etc.... these are all options which make a wizard/sorcerer very hard to get hold of. Thusly the +1 HP/level isn't worth as much to them as to other classes.
Also compare to the favored class option for any other race besides human: two levels of extra known spells =/= 1 extra use of acid dart.
Also compare to the favored class option for any other race besides human: two levels of extra known spells =/= 1 extra use of acid dart.
I agree. 10 extra uses of Acid Dart by 20th level is pretty useless compared 20 known spells, hit points or skill points. Still a few extra uses is nice so I might take that for the low levels. So you get 5 + Chr bonus at 4th then switch to Hit Point or Skills.
Although I am firmly on the side of the people who think the +1 spell/level is okay, I also think that arcane casters have very good methods of damage avoidance. Fly, Mirror Image, Blink ( banned in my campaign because it is *too* good and interacts very funky with too many other defensive spells ), Improved Invisibility, etc., etc.... these are all options which make a wizard/sorcerer very hard to get hold of. Thusly the +1 HP/level isn't worth as much to them as to other classes.
I think that depends on the Sorcerer build you have. Personally with 1D6 for a hit dice I go for the hit points. That my preference of course though. That and I tend pick the claw bearing sorcerers so hit points are worth it.
As well the skill point is kind of handy. Sorcerers get decent class skill that I want to spend points on but you only get 2.
I think that's Gorbacz's amusing way of summing up the 'Sorcerers are rubbish compared to the almighty Wizard, and even this change will not make them compare in the slightest' argumentHuh? Where does "Sorecerers have herpes" come from?Aaaargh ! Your search-fu is weak. There were several lenghty threads on this.
Bottom line: opinions vary from "overpowered" to "so what, Sorecerers have herpes anyway".
I removed the lad to gain spell levels from all spontaneous casters some time ago and haven't had any power issues with spontaneous casters since doing so.
I think the whole spontaneous aspect was overvalued back in 3.broken, it's the tiny number of spells known that keeps them balanced. However in PF, the Sorcerer was granted extra spells known and this power increase only elevated them to the same level as the other classes as they were pretty poor back in the day.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I still don't have my APG. Do any of the nonhuman classes get anything for being a sorcerer comparable to +1 spell known/level?
Not really. Half-Orcs get +1/2 to fire spell damage, but elves just gets extra uses of the 1st level bloodline power. Only Humans, Half-Orcs, and Elves get special favored class bonuses for Sorcerers.
That said, I'm definitely in the "I'd rather have the hit points" camp. I can already get pretty much all of the spells known I need with a baseline non favored class Sorcerer; the extra spells would just provide utility, and I can get wands or staves for that.
When this feature was originally presented many of the people defending the +1 spell/level feature told those of us opposed to it that we were prejudging it without seeing what extras the other classes got.
I still don't have my APG. Do any of the nonhuman classes get anything for being a sorcerer comparable to +1 spell known/level?
Ken
Elf : Can boost the # of uses per day of a bloodline power that is normally usable 3+CHA times per day.
Half-Elf : Same boost to Witch class.
Half-Orc : Boost damage of fire spells.
Not a lot of bonuses to Sorcerer.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Zurai
When this feature was originally presented many of the people defending the +1 spell/level feature told those of us opposed to it that we were prejudging it without seeing what extras the other classes got.
I still don't have my APG. Do any of the nonhuman classes get anything for being a sorcerer comparable to +1 spell known/level?
Ken
To be honest, not really. It's definitely one of the best bonuses, the other being for the Dwarven Oracle and Elven Barbarian and many of the other Human classes ( all other Human spontaneous casters get the same bonus ). I still say that it isn't an overpowered bonus, but in comparison to the others, it stands out. For whatever reason, Paizo seems to have wanted to buff humans up, although they are already ( I presume ) the most played race, at least around my groups.
The option for human sorcerers (and spontaneous casters in general) isn't unbalnced at all, in fact it's very much needed.
The problem i have with this option is that only humans get it, which means that a human is a much much better spontaneous caster than anyone else, and by far.
dot
The bonus spell options are unbalanced IMO.
If one thinks that sorcerer desperately needed it (answer: no - or at least not desperately), WHY only humans?
If one compares a bonus spell with.. well, almost every other class bonus, can see how much more powerful a new spell is.
You can see it from many sides, but sounds wrong anyway.
So, I was reading about the new alternative favored class options, and I noticed that certain spellcasters of some races, have the option to add one known spell of any spell level they can cast except their highest.
Now, i'm not quite ready to go all out and say that this is imbalanced but I would think that this would be a huge boost to the spontaneous casters whose main limiting factor is their amount of know spells and I really think that this bonus is better than a lot of the other options.
My GM is thinking of removing this option from his game as he is thinking that the sorcerer will become too strong (and dwarf the wizard) and because he does not think it is on par with the other choices
What do you guys think?
I've seen it used in several games now with no actual noticeable impact. The player is little happier with the option is all. Totally doesn't even come close to stepping on the wizards toes.