I'm working on a cleric build and not sure how I should handle charisma.
I think I'm going to pick up Liberation and Luck (Desna cleric) as my domains. The object is to go for very defensive cleric. Rather then trying to have some offensive spells which face saves and resistances, I'm going to buff my group and remove unwanted conditions.
My main issue is what to do with Charisma. I want to use channel positive energy primarily for healing not for attacking undead. I'll buff the group and we'll go to work that way. So I really don't need CHA to increase the DC for the channel. Since I'm not looking to have a smite heavy CHA build perhaps I should just ignore CHA instead of trying to go middle road. Based on a 20-point build, this is what I'm thinking for a Human cleric:
STR 13, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 18, CHA 10
The problem with a CHA 10 is that I don't get any bonus channels. But I don't see me needing CHA for anything else given the build I'm looking at. I could pick up the Extra Channels feat. Since clerics only get medium armor I went with a DEX 14.
What do you think of these stats?
On the topic of feats, I'm not sure where to go. Iron Will? Is even getting Weapon Focus worthy? I'll ignore the other channel feats. What about item creating feats like Scribe Scroll at 1st level and Brew potion at 3rd?
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I believe sellective channelling is also CHR based correct? If you plan to use channel in combat and not heal the enemy you might want to consider that feat and therefore not dumping CHR.
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Personally I think selective channeling is really overrated. Half the time if your going to channel, the 5 foot step or 20 feet move is more than enough to ensure your only healing your allies. For an inflicter who wants to be party friendly, I admit its probably essential.
I can back this one up completely. My girlfriend plays a negative channel bomber and it would be devastating for the group if she didn't have her high charisma and could deselect the whole group.
My character is the unfortunate one not deselected when there is too large a party. lol. She knows I like the abuse ;p
Do yourself a favor: forget Extra Channeling and just cast Eagle's Splendor before combat.
Featswise - Have you considered picking up a bow? Point Blank and Precise Shot are good since you'll be hanging around close for Channels anyway.
Consider:
swapping your dex and cha, use your first feat to gain selective channeling
if you're human consider tower shield proficiency as well.
look at travel domain if you're going with heavy armor (your build indicates you will go heavy armor) Starting at level 1 with an AC of 20 will help ensure you (and the party) stay alive. Advance to full plate as quickly as possible while keeping your AC at your level +20.
as levels progress your reflex will fall behind your other saves (lightning reflexes and the improved version will go a long ways to making up for that)
avoid the item creation at low levels, focus on survival.
if your DM allows traits seriously consider the wealth trait, the difference it makes in starting equipment at first level is huge, and at first level anything can kill you with a crit even with max. hp.
Creative Director
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In my opinion, Charisma is hardly a dump stat for clerics. It affects not only your channel energy, but some of your skills and some of your spell-like abilities, if you gain such from domains.
For a cleric, Intelligence is probably the best dump stat. Dexterity is a close second, since you can wear medium armor and thus don't have to rely on Dex for defense as much.
For a cleric, Intelligence is probably the best dump stat.
Heehee... "Don't overthink things, just have faith!"
If you have any sneak attack people in the group, or people who just like to flank because it's a good tactic, then you will definitely want Selective Channeling.
And even if you don't, the enemies might, so either way, you'll have allies on the other side of a fair number of enemies.
Perhaps your group games differently, but in my experience, once combat is into the 2nd round, all the melee characters are mixed up.
Often, the Cleric has to remember "who's been hit", because even with Selective Channeling, it's tough to not encompass a large portion of the enemies to heal everyone.
It really helps if people focus their damage on single targets (although with things like cleave or fireball, it's sometimes unavoidable).
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For a cleric, Intelligence is probably the best dump stat. Dexterity is a close second, since you can wear medium armor and thus don't have to rely on Dex for defense as much.
as much as i love playing a cleric with ranks only in heal, knowledge: religion and spellcraft, i have to disagree about INT. DEX however, is definitely a dumper for clerics. none of your skills rely on it, and your big armor negates a lot of it. Also, most of your touch range spells are melee touch, so no high DEX is needed there either, unless you love spamming searing light or use the various 'light of {level of celestia}' spells from 3.5 splats.
CON is another consideration, though most folks will disagree with me there. You have decent HD already and a good Fort save, so losing that extra +1 or +2 HP/Level isn't going to hurt you that much. Unless you're a melee cleric, then pump up the CON.
In my opinion, Charisma is hardly a dump stat for clerics. It affects not only your channel energy, but some of your skills and some of your spell-like abilities, if you gain such from domains.
For a cleric, Intelligence is probably the best dump stat. Dexterity is a close second, since you can wear medium armor and thus don't have to rely on Dex for defense as much.
darn, i was ninjaed. but i will say dexterity still has it's uses to some clerics. just not in huge quantities unless you are an archer of erastil or some kind of odd swashbuckling cleric.
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For a cleric, Intelligence is probably the best dump stat. Dexterity is a close second, since you can wear medium armor and thus don't have to rely on Dex for defense as much.
IMHO, Intelligence is never a dump stat for a class with only 2 skill points. In fact, I think one of your problems is you don't have any great dump stats. However, I don't think an 18 is required in Wisdom.
My suggestion is
Str 14 Dex 12 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 16 (+2 stat here) Cha 14
or
Str 14 Dex 10 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 17 Cha 14
or
If you insist on the 18
Str 12 Dex 10 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 14
Some variation of the above to suit your taste.
All the Best,
Kerney
Do yourself a favor: forget Extra Channeling and just cast Eagle's Splendor before combat.
Doesn't work. Bonuses have to last 24 hours before they'll boost class abilities like this.
Doesn't work. Bonuses have to last 24 hours before they'll boost class abilities like this.Do yourself a favor: forget Extra Channeling and just cast Eagle's Splendor before combat.
Where does it say this?
Not that I don't believe you, I would just like the reference. :)
Relevant link
Hmm. From the Eagle's Splendor text...
"The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma, adding the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier." Emphasis mine.
Does this mean that the "other uses" are just the spell DCs? Or is there more to it? Why would they not have added in the rather small sentence that would limit it to the DCs?
Relevant link...Eagle's Splendor is not able to give a Paladin/Bard/Sorceror bonus spells (as would a Headband of Alluring Charisma after worn for 24 hours)...
So you won't let a paladin or sorcerer gain full benefits of the spell but you will allow the cleric to -- even though it doesn't specific that class abilities get increased?
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
The spell doesn't last over 24 hours -- therefore it won't increase your number of uses of channel energy -- consider what it states in the temporary bonuses section for charisma too:
Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
I point out at that point you might as well not limit channel energy since they could just cast eagle's splendor at any point to gain two new (and unused) uses of channel energy.
I started a thread about Cha and what the optimal score should be for selective channelling and the average came out at +2.
Normally you can avoid damaging more than 2 monsters during combat so any more than 2 could be a waste. However consider the possibility that some monsters that have hit the ground may noy be dead and making sure they are dead before moving on to another monster could be a dangerous tactic.
Also for channels/day every point counts. Yes you can spend the feats on extra channel but do you really want to? If your main build goal is to heal, have a look at the Priest class.
You could always take spell focus conjuration and augment summoning and just summon on round one [hopefully before your healing abilities are requires] and then buff/heal thereafter. At least this way you get to concentrate on being a healer but also get to be involved in combat too!
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You want a defencive cleric. With offencive spells and to be over all effective as a caster.
My best suggestion.
Cleric 18 Monk 2 ( 20 point build human )
Str 10 Dex 16 con 14 Int 8 Wis 15 Cha 14
All level up point in to Wis.
Or
Str 10 Dex 15 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 16 Cha 14
Level 4 +1 Dex all other points Wis
Or
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 17 Cha 10
All level up points in to Wis
Pros : High AC, Evasion, & 9th level divine spells
Cons : Delayed access to spells, Delayed access to domain powers, Low melee damage,
So you won't let a paladin or sorcerer gain full benefits of the spell but you will allow the cleric to -- even though it doesn't specific that class abilities get increased?
Please show me where I said the Paladin could not get a bonus to Smite Evil, Divine Grace, and Lay on Hands. Please show me where I said the Sorcerer could not get a bonus to the relevant CHA-based Bloodline powers.
The spell doesn't last over 24 hours -- therefore it won't increase your number of uses of channel energy -- consider what it states in the temporary bonuses section for charisma too:
Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
Ok, then why did they leave out the "only skills and DCs" stipulation in the spell description? The whole "other uses of CHA modifier" is a bit vague. I can see your points, I'm just saying that a couple more words could go a long way to clarify things.
I point out at that point you might as well not limit channel energy since they could just cast eagle's splendor at any point to gain two new (and unused) uses of channel energy.
That's just absurd. The limitation is there because not everyone takes Eagle's Splendor (assuming ES does boost it).
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Cleric: Spells:
Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain
number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily
spell allotment. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score.
A cleric may channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier.
That means you have to start the day with that ability mod.
Cleric: Spells:
Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain
number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily
spell allotment. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score.A cleric may channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier.
That means you have to start the day with that ability mod.
Hmm. Good point.
Wow I was really thinking in the wrong direction. I have an old view of clerics as characters that fight in melee more (I've been out of gaming for awhile). I've clearly overlooked CHA.
I hate losing two squares to heavy armor but even if I didn't take something like heavy armor proficiency, I can't stay in a chain shirt forever.
I guess I'll go with this:
STR 13, DEX 10, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 18, CHA 14
FEATS: Selective Channeling, Heavy Armor Prof.
DOMAINS (Desna): Liberation, Luck (Could maybe go with Travel but I don't know if that is a better trade off for one of the other two. Liberation and Luck are better for the group.)
Should I try to take Longspear as my weapon--it's a simple weapon but has reach? The plan is to follow the melee PC around and work with him in such a way that keeps me in touch range for a heal while avoiding an AoO (or taking a 5ft step), and allows me reach attacks on his target. I get AoO for enemies coming within 5ft, and chances are the melee might as well if the enemy passes into his threatened area to attack me. I defend him, he defends me.
I lose a +2 to AC I could have with a shield though since the Longspear is a 2H weapon (+4 if I pick up Tower Prof sometime). Perhaps I'm just a cleric and should let Fighters/Paladins/Barbarians play around with reach.
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Headband Cha
Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the
headband is worn.
page 515
Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score
give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This
bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and
the DC to resist your channeled energy.
page 555
So infact you can't get more turn undead attempts with a tempory bouns.
Liberation and Travel are a very potant combination. You instantly become a master of movement. Liveration im sure you read so ill skip it. Travel ill give you a few things to think on.
1: It incresses your base speed by 10 as a granted ability. This ability is in the discription of the Domaine.
2: You Ignore all difficult terrain and do not take any penalties for moving through it.
3: Dimensional Hop (Sp) short range teleport
4: Almost all the spells on the list are arcane spells that you could normal not cast.
You need to start the day with the WIS ability mod.
The CHA ability mod is dynamic.
If the cleric has a CHA of 12 then they have 4 channeling uses for the day.
If they use 3 then get hit for 1 CHA damage they would not be able to use the 4th.
-James
not true ability damage does not remove bonuses to class abilities. Reread the ability damage and drain section.
Also (again) a temp bonus will not increase class ability usage.
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Headband Cha
Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the
headband is worn.
page 515Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score
give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This
bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and
the DC to resist your channeled energy.
page 555So infact you can't get more turn undead attempts with a tempory bouns.
Would you also discount a temporary increase to CHA as not applying to DCs for spell-like abilities?
What about opposed CHA checks?
I disagree and think that you get to use more channel energy actions if your CHA is increased, as much as you get to take more hps in damage if your CON is increased.
-James
Just read the rules on temporary ability incress. Page 554 to page 555.
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Wow I was really thinking in the wrong direction. I have an old view of clerics as characters that fight in melee more (I've been out of gaming for awhile). I've clearly overlooked CHA.
I hate losing two squares to heavy armor but even if I didn't take something like heavy armor proficiency, I can't stay in a chain shirt forever.
I guess I'll go with this:
STR 13, DEX 10, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 18, CHA 14
FEATS: Selective Channeling, Heavy Armor Prof.
Take Longspear and buckler. Save the heavy armor prof for 3rd level and perhaps take something else that fits your character, perhaps the start of a feat track or a standby like Toughness or Improved Initiative. At 3rd level, see if you actually need the heavy armor. At first level you can't afford the armor prices anyway.
All the best,
Kerney
Okay.. they've spelled things out, but I'm not sure how well.
SNIP (To keep it short)
The section is not as iron-clad for you to take non-inclusion for exclusion imho, James
OK the way I read the intent (And my dog thinks I am a mind reader so it should be a good guess. LOL)
Any temporary increase or decrease of and ability that can be healed with time, or will wear off with time, does NOT change things like bonus spells, barbarian rages, bard songs, cleric channel, etc. But you DO get the bonus to the ability modifier for anything that involves a D20 roll such as skills, attacks, saves, DC's, etc.
Any Permanent increase or decrease to an ability that will not go away with time, or that lasts for more then 24 hours, gives you an permanent change in the ability in all respects unless specifically contradicted with a special rule. (Such as the skill points from a +INT headband.)
Why are you worrying about AC? HAP is a wasted feat imo. Take Extra Channel.
STR 13, DEX 10, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 18, CHA 14FEATS: Selective Channeling, Heavy Armor Prof.
DOMAINS (Desna): Liberation, Luck (Could maybe go with Travel but I don't know if that is a better trade off for one of the other two. Liberation and Luck are better for the group.)
Dump Luck and take Travel! Dimensional Hop is awesome!
Should I try to take Longspear as my weapon--it's a simple weapon but has reach? The plan is to follow the melee PC around and work with him in such a way that keeps me in touch range for a heal while avoiding an AoO (or taking a 5ft step), and allows me reach attacks on his target. I get AoO for enemies coming within 5ft, and chances are the melee might as well if the enemy passes into his threatened area to attack me. I defend him, he defends me.
I lose a +2 to AC I could have with a shield though since the Longspear is a 2H weapon (+4 if I pick up Tower Prof sometime). Perhaps I'm just a cleric and should let Fighters/Paladins/Barbarians play around with reach.
Use your channel to heal the fighter and use shield other also, assuming no AoE casters around, to get more mileage out of it. Your plan isn't going to work against anything larger than medium [reach] unless you can convince the fighter to take Lunge and then its still only good vs large or smaller.
Again, don't get bogged down into thinking AC is the answer to survival. When it comes to AC, to need something around 20 + your level, if you're serious about not getting hit, otherwise you're just wasting your money. Use blur, displacement, invisibility etc. to stay alive and pump your saves. Failed saving throws are where most deaths occur in my experience!I still think you should consider summoning something on round one to support the party and control the battlefield :)
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Intelligence is my lowest stat. I beefed up Ragen's Wisdom and Charisma. Since my cleric channels negative energy (Pharasma cleric), excluding my party members is important to prevent hurting my allies. I took feats to improve my Channeling...Selective Channeling (hurt allies =bad), Improved Channel, Channel Smite (when allies are too close, but I want to smite things), Channel Shield Wall. I got the phylactery of negative channeling to pump that up. Ragen is a backline fighter, except when she has to do a touch attack. I hurt the enemies and do select a few beneficial spells like Prayer, Bless, and Cure. But my faves are the more necromantic...Bane, Bestow Curse, Desecrate.
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Well There is the Trait Exalted of the Society which gives you +1 channel a day.
I would be honest you probably would do fine with a natural 12 Cha. and Avoid Selective channeling all together. You will be doing your channeling Hopefully outside the battle.
So you want to be the Buff Cleric that Keeps the party healed up and Dishing damage. Forgoing the Save spells that tend to fizzle.
Well I can tell you a few things. A few golden Rules of the Better Clerics:
1:"An ounce of prevention is better then a pound of cure."
2:"Being In combat is for the Big STUPID fighter."
Those rules being said Let me explain.
Number 1 basically means its better to prevent damage then to just take it and heal through it. Preventing damage can come in multiple ways. Buffs- Like resist energy, Death ward, Spell resistance, Protection from Evil, ext ext.
It can also come Crowd control. Toppling spell+spiritual weapon,Blade barrier, Command, Hold X, Terrible remorse, ext ext. Those spells take people out of a fight and taking things out of a fight means less incoming damage. Typically the Arcane caster does this if they are smart. But if your group has 0 crowd control your group will always beg for a healer because they want to just trade blows with everything.
The last way to prevent damage is By summoning something to take the Hits instead of your group taking the punishment. Summoning is very strong as a lot of the creatures come with Spell like abilities you can use as more spells per day. But the creatures do not need to be healed so you can "throw them under the Balor."
Number 2 is getting over not being in heavy armor, not swinging a weapon, and not taking unnecessary damage. A lot of people have a hard time getting over Not being in heavy armor. Get over it...You can buff yourself to ridiculous AC levels just fine In medium armor and in light armor you will hardly notice. AC is the worst mitigation of damage in the game. You have magical means to get a good enough AC.
The next hardest thing is getting over not unsheathing your weapon unless it is an extreme emergency. Why do you need too? Yeah you get weapons to use...yay...but your damage sucks without buffing yourself up with 2+ spells that last long enough for 1 combat. No thanks doesn't seem resource efficient to me. No I would rather just make sure my Friends from Pound town hits harder and more efficiently as well as being able to weather the skirmish. Bardic performance is godly....the Evangelist Archetype of Cleric is just insanely nuts for a Buff/controller cleric.
Not taking unnecessary damage. This can take some practice but remember you have abilities like magic.....Sanctuary is a good spell...who needs armor when they can not attack you? Don't want to provoke an attack by moving...the spell grace works as a swift action and lets you run through hordes without provoking an AoO. Summon monster 3 summons a creature who can give your entire party Aid as a spell like ability...you can have everyone Hitting more efficiently and having Temporary Hit points for 1 level 3 spell. Aid is a 2nd level spell...for 1 3rd lvl you get 5+ castings of a 2nd level spell. Efficiency and playing smart can go a long way.
TO be honest I would just go straight Cleric and Play as a caster. Avoid combat as much as possible and focus down on Preparation and Preventing. Why dip fighter or monk....your Taking a tier 1 class and breeding it with a tier 4. When have you known down breeding to be a Good thing?
What about working in some item creation feats to make consumables? I'm making a cleric and one of the things I'm struggling with is the fact that even with a high wisdom I'm just a guy in heavy armor that can't hit the broad side of a barn, and I have a couple spells.
My thought was to take Scribe Scroll and start churning out low level buffs for cheap, then eventually pick up Craft Wand for bigger buffs and heals. What do you think?
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Holy Thread Necromancy! I miss when James used to come into the advice forum. :(
If you care about channeling be a life oracle.
Otherwise leave at 10 and get int. You have high wisdom, become the group perciever, sense motive, ect
Holy Thread Necromancy! I miss when James used to come into the advice forum. :(
Yeah, Ragen really dragged this thread out of the graveyard.
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Also have u looked at life oracle? Finally, check to c if u can take a deity that is neutral and has ur prefered domains. Then u could channel both energies as u wanted to.
Actually with a neutral deity you have to PICK whether or not you channel positive AND have Spontaneous Cure effects, so it's either Heal or Damage.
But if you're playing a buffer/frontliner cleric, my suggestion to dump both INT and CHA and not focus on WIS as much and go for more martial. If you have a Wis of 14, you can still cast lvl 4 spells, yet by the time you get them (lvl 7), you'll be able to afford either to put a point in WIS, or buy a headband.
The stats in The Lion's page are made for a buffer/frontliner, that took 2/3rds of the enemy party in one module in two rounds, just because of Flying Blade and Combat Reflexes. His goal is to stand next to the other frontliners, provide buffs for them and smack them real hard if they attack. That's just a suggestion, of course.
But at the cost of one feat u can channel either. Thats all I was saying.
Not with Life oracle. Life oracles ONLY get positive energy. They don't get to choose, therefore they can't take flexible channeling or whatever that feat is name.