I think its pretty fair, bearing in mind that like bonuses dont stack, and a 20th level fighter would be running around with some pretty significant Armor with zero feat expendeture needed. I would not allow Unarmed strikes to count using the loop hole that you dont "wield" your hands, but this is just mostly because I think that it would be broken as it would stack with Monk AC bonus from Wisdom.
|
The new Adv Guide has a feat called Web of Steel. It allows an armor bonus equal to 1/2 character level +2 while wielding the weapon with weapon focus feat. Yes, it requires three feats to get (dodge, Combat Expertise, and Weapon Focus), does not operate if flat footed or any reason you would lose a dodge bonus and does not stack with other armor bonuses. Yet, by 20th level, this is an armor bonus of 12. I assume this would work with Unarmed Attacks as the melee weapon since these are considered light weapons as well. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I like the feat, but I made a post before regarding other publications; feat tree of Unarmored Defense Proficiency and most seem to think it was overpowered. Also, in light of posts I read on the new Hamatulatsu feat being reworked by the developers (removing critical threat range of 16-20), there is no other feat in the game that would give such a scaling to armor or scaling of this kind at all that I can think of. THoughts would be appreciated.
If this is for real, and those are the only requirements for the feat as you mentioned, then that is a must have for monks. Period.
It helps take some of the load off the wiz/sorc by forcing them to use mage armor on them whenever possible too. jeez thats awesome.
The new Adv Guide has a feat called Web of Steel. It allows an armor bonus equal to 1/2 character level +2 while wielding the weapon with weapon focus feat. Yes, it requires three feats to get (dodge, Combat Expertise, and Weapon Focus), does not operate if flat footed or any reason you would lose a dodge bonus and does not stack with other armor bonuses. Yet, by 20th level, this is an armor bonus of 12. I assume this would work with Unarmed Attacks as the melee weapon since these are considered light weapons as well. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I like the feat, but I made a post before regarding other publications; feat tree of Unarmored Defense Proficiency and most seem to think it was overpowered. Also, in light of posts I read on the new Hamatulatsu feat being reworked by the developers (removing critical threat range of 16-20), there is no other feat in the game that would give such a scaling to armor or scaling of this kind at all that I can think of. THoughts would be appreciated.
*sprays the monitor with coffee*
That's in the Advanced Player's Guide? SICK!!!
I thought about this for monks. I agree with Lazurin that unarmed strikes may be a loophole, but as the rules state, unarmed strikes are considered light weapons. Lets say I disallow unarmed strikes, so the monk gets weapon focus with temple sword. It just has to be weilded and he can still flurry attacking with whatever combination of attacks he wants. Recall, monks can unarmed strike with hands full. Even outside of monk, for three feats any character can get this feat (BTW you also need Int 13, and Dex 15 with BAB +1). THis would be the highest armor bonus in the game. Full plate only provides 9 and bracers of armor provide a max of 8.
That's nonmagical full plate. +5 full plate would still be +14 armor bonus to AC.
Granted, characters with this feat wouldn't be at 8 armor until level 12 and armor or 9 at level 14. GIven the amount of feats a fighter gets, why wouldn't every fighter get this feat by level 14? At this point, they can enchant just padded armor (light), only forgo the stacking 1 armor bonus from the padded leather, yet still enchant to +5 enhancement bonus and +5 other abilities to this padded armor and get the same armor bonus as full plate from this feat?
An armor enhancement bonus is still an armor bonus. +5 leather armor would provide a +6 armor bonus that would not stack with the +9 armor bonus from the feat.
|
|
Hmm, I don't think that is the case. Enhancement bonuses to armor are enhancement bonuses, not armor bonuses. Quote core rule book "Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancment bonuses).
The bonus to the armor is an enhancement bonus, thus improving the AC the armor provides to that slot-The armor slot.
Hmm, I don't think that is the case. Enhancement bonuses to armor are enhancement bonuses, not armor bonuses. Quote core rule book "Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancment bonuses).
Couldnt you just houserule an addition to the feat, something saying this feat doesnt work if your wearing armor.
Wow.
If that is in fact what the feat does, Wow.
My 1st impression is that it is too powerful. My 2nd impression is that there is no reason you shouldn't be able to use your weapon AND armor for defense. Presumably this feat is designed to simulate parrying attacks and using the weapon to create distance between you and your attacker. No reason that your armor should stop working once the attacker got inside your guard.
Presuming the feat works like Venjor states, I would disallow this feat in my campaign. Or possibly change it to a +1 circumstance bonus to AC per 5 points of BAB, but I would allow armor to work.
Am I the only one thinking this would be great for an Eldrich Knight or other gish who doesn't want to burn swift actions on Arcane Armor, or worse yet, up their effective spell slot burned with Still Spell.
Dodge isn't a half bad feat now, and Combat Expertise and Weapon Focus are prerequisites for a lot of good feats, so this is totally viable to make, say, a control-based wizard/fighter eldrich knight.
House ruling can be an option. The feat is worded as follows: When you are not flat footed, wearing light armor or no armor, and have a melee weapon you have Weapon Focus for in hand ready for use, you gain an armor bonus to your AC. This bonus is equal to 1/2 your character level +2. Any circumstance that would cause you to lose your dodge bonus also causes you to lose this armor bonus to AC. Like any armor bonus, it does not stack with other sources of armor.
If I house rule no wearing armor allowed, I still wonder, for four feats, would wizards, sorcerers and especially monks always get this since it is better than bracers of armor of +8? Furthermore, you could still enchant the bracers with just a +1 armor bonus (which wouldn't stack) but then get +7 of special armor abilities. Again, part of me thinks it is worthwhile and not overpowered, but the monk I am concerned about.
Wizards and sorcerers? Perish the thought.
One, they will need a weapon. At that level, I will almost always have a staff or rod in hand, and adding a weapon to my other hand means I need to be a Marilith to cast spells.
Two, this requires two feats no mage is likely to ever take (not counting gishes) - I would never consider Combat Expertise and Weapon Focus as a mage; there are too many feats I need much more than I need those.
Three, this requires even one more feat (Web of Steel), so it takes 3 feats to gain 4 AC. Not worth it. Especially since CR20 bad guys can cut through a 23 AC like butter anyway. By those levels, I am relying on staying out of reach, staying out of sight, or having miss chance to save my bacon if all else fails - if it comes down to my AC standing between me and a Balor, I'm just going to die, even with Web of Steel.
So no, I don't see this as being a problem for mages.
Now, I agree with the concerns about the monk. That's where this feat seems to become unsupportable.
Monks tend to need more AC anyway... This gives them 12 at level 20. It will put them in line with a fighter without a shield. Oh no, your monk can tank. I don't see this as a problem feat. It gives the monk a +4 bonus over Bracers of Armor at lvl 20. Since armor bonuses override eachother anyway, you can't even pump special abilities on the bracers.
In the case of regular armor, you could always get + studded leather for no significant disadvantage, ot mirthril chain shirt (regular chain shirt has a -1 ACP). This is either +8 or +9 once fully upgraded to +5, so the feat is getting a lvl 20 character a whopping +3 bonus and saving them 64K. Edit: I forgot about a +1 chain shirt can have +9 in abilities, and treated it as only having +5. This may be a bigger issue than I thought, but I don't really think so
I think the problem is that you are allowing the magical armor bonus to stack with this alternate source of armor. I don't think it is supposed to work that way. I always treat the enhancement bonus as an increase to the armor bonus that the armor provides, the way Amulets of Natural Armor work. Rereading the section, its not clear if that is how it is supposed to work, or if your way is. I think if you handle it this way though you wont have an issue.
Edit: your way, if you wear a +5 chain shirt under +1 platemail with 9 bonuses, you get the +9 from the platemail and the +5 from the chain shirt. My way, you only get the +10 total from the plate mail and nothing from the +9 that the chain shirt provides.
armor bonuses don't stack. so if you get the ac from this you cant get the ac from your light armor.Read the armor magic item section.
Magic Armor Bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rize above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses
This is the line that is confusing. It is saying that the +5 from the magic armor enchantment is counted seprately from the armor bonus provided by the rest of the armor, and therefore it stacks seprately. I have never seen anyone actually play it this way, but that is what it says.
A Rogue could use this well, and not worry about a max dex bonus, check penalties, time putting on armor, etc.
A Bard could use this very well. They have the same issues as a rogue, PLUS get spell assistance (cat's grace, etc) for even better AC potential.
A Wizard with a bonded weapon could use this Extremely well. They have even better spell options than the bard (shield spell, etc.)
A Sorcerer of the draconic bloodline with this feat would be a broken combo. They could use this without even having to hold a weapon (see monk), PLUS they get natural armor bonuses, PLUS they still have all of the defensive spell options of the Wizard.
Should these classes have BETTER AC than a fighter of equal level? I don't think they should.
Don't get me wrong, I love atypical builds with the classes. This just goes too far.
Think about the alternatives for wizards/sorcerers:
Option 1: spend 4 feats on Light Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency, Arcane Armor Training, and Arcane Armor Mastery? The "best" AC option is the breastplate (+6), and with that, you would still have an arcane spell failure of 5%. At 20th level (+5 enhancement to armor), the AC benefit would be +11.
Option 2: spend 4 feats on Dodge, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus, and Web of Steel. At 20th level, the AC benefit would be +13 (including the dodge feat), with a 0% Arcane spell failure.
Option 2 is better in almost every way. It provides a better AC by 2, less chance of spell failure, requires no time to put on the armor if attacked in the middle of the night, has no encumberance, has no armor check penalty, doesn't reduce your movement...and if all that wasn't enough, it doesn't cost you a single gp.
Think of a draconic bloodline Sorcerer with this feat vs a Fighter (or Paladin) in +5 full plate:
Sorcerer: +4 natural AC, +1 dodge bonus, +12 Web of steel, +4 shield = 31 AC, 0 gp spent.
Fighter or Paladin: +14 armor bonus (full plate +5), +7 shield bonus (heavy steel shield +5) = 31 AC, 26,650 gp spent on armor, 25,170 gp spent on shield (51,820 gp spent total).
The sorcerer has an additional protection against magic missle and incorporeal attacks, and still has 51,820 gp left over for other magical defenses (ring of protection +5, etc.) heck, with the ring of protection, they have a better AC by 1, for less gold cost, BEFORE they burn any spells. In addition, they have both hands free for various other tasks.
Now, if the feat is written as the OP suggests, does anyone still think that this is ballanced??? Where is the trade off? Why wouldn't every character consider this, ESPECIALLY characters that can't walk around in full plate?
This feat most helps the classes that don't really need the help, Sorcerers and Wizards.
the wizard in question spent 4 of his precious ill afforded feats and has to burn a first level spell every fight.
the fighter and paladin spent boatloads of cash. cash is a more replacable resource than feats.
A Rogue could use this well, and not worry about a max dex bonus, check penalties, time putting on armor, etc.
A Bard could use this very well. They have the same issues as a rogue, PLUS get spell assistance (cat's grace, etc) for even better AC potential.
A Wizard with a bonded weapon could use this Extremely well. They have even better spell options than the bard (shield spell, etc.)
A Sorcerer of the draconic bloodline with this feat would be a broken combo. They could use this without even having to hold a weapon (see monk), PLUS they get natural armor bonuses, PLUS they still have all of the defensive spell options of the Wizard.
Should these classes have BETTER AC than a fighter of equal level? I don't think they should.
Don't get me wrong, I love atypical builds with the classes. This just goes too far.
Think about the alternatives for wizards/sorcerers:
Option 1: spend 4 feats on Light Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency, Arcane Armor Training, and Arcane Armor Mastery? The "best" AC option is the breastplate (+6), and with that, you would still have an arcane spell failure of 5%. At 20th level (+5 enhancement to armor), the AC benefit would be +11.
Option 2: spend 4 feats on Dodge, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus, and Web of Steel. At 20th level, the AC benefit would be +13 (including the dodge feat), with a 0% Arcane spell failure.
Option 2 is better in almost every way. It provides a better AC by 2, less chance of spell failure, requires no time to put on the armor if attacked in the middle of the night, has no encumberance, has no armor check penalty, doesn't reduce your movement...and if all that wasn't enough, it doesn't cost you a single gp.
Think of a draconic bloodline Sorcerer with this feat vs a Fighter (or Paladin) in +5 full plate:
Sorcerer: +4 natural AC, +1 dodge bonus, +12 Web of steel, +4 shield = 32 AC, 0 gp spent.
Fighter or Paladin: +14...
Love the way your example Sorc spent 4 feats and the fighter spent 0, and he has a 1 min/lvl spell up continuouslym for an end result of dodge feat making them equal. 2 of those feats a sorc will probably not use anyway. How often is he attacking with those claws he took weapon focus in? At most 3+cha mod times/day.
I also love the fact that you neglect mithral armor when comparing your spell failure. Not that I have EVER seen a straight arcane caster take those feats. Its a great feat for some EK, but only ones that do not use two handed weapons, the weapon of choice for every build I have ever seen. Its dropping your damage output significantly.
Rogues and Bards I can definetely see using this. But then just check out my previous posts. Depending on how you impliment the feat, its a whopping +3 AC bonus at level 20 unless their dex is over 22, and before then it wont be that much. At lvl 8, its = to a +2 chain shirt, your typical gear. It wont be until lvl 12 that it even starts to be better than buying armor, and you sacrifice alternate abilities depending on your interpretation. The AC boosts through most levels are irrelevant and perfectly ballanced for a feat.
the wizard in question spent 4 of his precious ill afforded feats and has to burn a first level spell every fight.
the fighter and paladin spent boatloads of cash. cash is a more replacable resource than feats.
My point was that they shouldn't be the ones with the highest AC. This feat lets them do that, and STILL dish out "boatloads" of offensive damage, AND be more versatile than any other class, AND not have any of the drawbacks of having heavy armor.
Don't forget also, there are still plenty of other defensive spell options available to the Wizard/Sorcerer, that the Fighter/Paladin can't use. Wizards/Sorcerers don't need this feat. The AC bonus from this feat should at least be based on BAB, not level.
If you still don't believe that the feat benefits the sorcerer/wizard more than the fighter, make some 20th level characters and try and max out their AC. USE THE SUGGESTED WEALTH PER LEVEL CHART. The fighter's AC can't touch what the sorcerer/wizard can do with this feat.
EDIT: My whole objection is based on the fact that I think the fighter SHOULD have the highest AC, not how many feats are spent. How many feats do you really need if you are already doing the most damage, are the most versatile, and have the highest AC in your party. Spending 4 of 12 feats (assuming human) is not that big a deal if you are managing to do all that.
Caineach – I believe it is true that enhancement bonuses are indeed separate from armor bonuses. I will use your example, however, I do not believe a chain shirt can be worn under plate armor any more than a character can wear leather armor under plate. Lets assume for the moment that you can, it would result in the following:
Chain shirt armor bonus +4, enhancement bonus +5
Plate armor bonus +9, enhancement bonus +1
The result would be armor bonus of +9 (plate bonus is higher so trumps chain shirt) and enhancement bonus of +5 ( chain shirt enhancement bonus trumps +1 of the plate) for a total of +14 to AC. Again, I don’t believe you can wear chain shirt plus full plate.
Back to the feat at hand, armor bonuses don’t stack, so if a character did wear padded armor, the +1 armor bonus would be forfeit but if it has any enhancement bonuses or special abilities, they should apply according to the rules. The only specifically stated restriction on this type of stacking is bracers of armor. Bracers that have an armor bonus and special abilities, if any other armor bonus is higher than the bracers, nothing on the bracers work. So having a +1 armor bonus, +7 special abilities bracers of armor, it would not work at all if a character has anything (including a feat) that grants an armor bonus greater than 1. There is no restriction on this for regular worn magical armor that states if another armor bonus is greater, the whole worn armor, enhancement and special abilities is forfeit.
Actually, I think my example perfectly exemplifies why I think you are having a problem with the feat. I handle that situation as the enhancement being a bonus to the armor, so you get much less broken results where only the better armor applies. I would also rule that armor enhancement bonuses must come from the highest armor bonus, like bracers of AC do. I think this is how it is intened to work, but the actual wording does not come accross this way.
EDIT: My whole objection is based on the fact that I think the fighter SHOULD have the highest AC, not how many feats are spent. How many feats do you really need if you are already doing the most damage, are the most versatile, and have the highest AC in your party. Spending 4 of 12 feats (assuming human) is not that big a deal if you are managing to do all that.
lets look at a comparision of the plate vs the parry feat
parry feat is a flat scaling armor bonus that requires a 4 feat investment (40% of your average characters feats) the cost of the armor is easily replacable at that level. gold is far easier to replace than feats. and wealth by level isn't always followed. but anyone high enough level to get the +12 parry armor bonus probably is facing foes that can effortllessly hit them even with that ac bonus. lets look at a few comparisons.
abilities. the parry feat gives you a scaling armor bonus for a 4 feat investment. 40 percent of thier feats and a whole 7 levels. the purchased armor requires a cash investment, and cash is so abundant that it can be easily replaced by that point. actually, money isn't even an object past about 13th level or so.
the armor can be made of special materials and can get special abilities, the feat cannot.
+5 adamantine fullplate of heavy fortification is the best thing a fighter can wear and serves them better than armor class serves a wizard. there are more defenses than just armor class.
no weight or spell failure?
let me tell you about this thing called the twilight mithril shirt.
for 37,100 it provides a +9 to armor class, no spell failure, no check penalty and no nonproficiency penalty, for what cost? 10 pounds of weight and a max dex of +6. much cheaper and better than bracers of armor +8 which cost 64,000. as a wizard, don't expect your dexterity to climb too far past 20.
no donning time? the time it takes to draw is it's donning time. it is also vulnerable to both sunder and disarm. both can potentially negate your 4 feat investment
4 feats is not a lot? no, it is a lot, you only get 10 in 20 levels, unless you are either a human or have a class that gives you more feats.
more ac than a fighter of similar level?
looks like it on the outside but here are some other points, you blew possibly 40% of an irreplacable resource and are likely burning a first level slot every fight. the fighter spent the easily replacable resource we call cash. need money, go slay a dragon and loot his horde. you are an adventurer. a wandering sociopath who barges his way into fortresses, commits a massacre and walks out rich on a regular basis. people are afraid of you. entire kingdoms soil themselves in your prescence. you can easily get all the cash you need. entire kingdoms will bribe you with thier complete treasuries to keep thier lives. gold is very easy to replace.
look at what the fighter is getting with his armor you don't get with your feat. a lot of fancy abilities you cannot have. fortification, damage reduction, and a variety of things.
your ac drops by a whole 12 when the enemy disarms or sunders your weapon. fighter doesn't have that issue. you need buffs to surpass the fighter. so what if a shield spell puts you a few points ahead.
you are burning a first level spell every fight.
there are other defenses besides ac.
saving throws, damage reduction, hit points, spell resistance, energy resistance, status immunities of various sorts.
what you see as highest ac, i see as a massive expenditure of resources with more drawbacks than armor. weapons have weight too. but armor doesn't use up a free hand.
My point was that they shouldn't be the ones with the highest AC. This feat lets them do that, and STILL dish out "boatloads" of offensive damage, AND be more versatile than any other class, AND not have any of the drawbacks of having heavy armor.
Don't forget also, there are still plenty of other defensive spell options available to the Wizard/Sorcerer, that the Fighter/Paladin can't use. Wizards/Sorcerers don't need this feat. The AC bonus from this feat should at least be based on BAB, not level.
If you still don't believe that the feat benefits the sorcerer/wizard more than the fighter, make some 20th level characters and try and max out their AC. USE THE SUGGESTED WEALTH PER LEVEL CHART. The fighter's AC can't touch what the sorcerer/wizard can do with this feat.
EDIT: My whole objection is based on the fact that I think the fighter SHOULD have the highest AC, not how many feats are spent. How many feats do you really need if you are already doing the most damage, are the most versatile, and have the highest AC in your party. Spending 4 of 12 feats (assuming human) is not that big a deal if you are managing to do all that.
This is a faulty argument. Cause while a caster could be doing this, they should be spending their money on things that increase their spell craft. If you want I could make a wizard that wears Fullplate and Tower shield with all of his spells Stilled, and get a retarded AC. Without these feats, but no one builds wizards like this. Also your building level 20 characters. Lets make level 10 characters, I bet that Fighter is still wearing Fullplate and can easily have +3 on it and a shield. While your feat combo only gives 7 AC, the fighter has 12 from armor and 5 from his shield. Not to mention the feats he can put into it. Dodge, Shield Focus, and Greater Shield Focus.
Im not saying the feat is balanced, Im just saying that the scenario you proposed is basis to get the results you wanted. If you feel its Over powered, You could easily take off the plus 2 and just make it 1/2 level. You could put a high BAB on it, +9 for example. All these things could be done if you feel it needs to come down a notch
As I understand it, if web of steel is taken literally, then no, it is not an unarmed attack, but yes, it should be usable with flurry of blows.
As new weapons are introduced to the game, decisions must be included whether they are Monk's weapons or not. This includes using part of a suit of armor as punchung gauntlets. Brass Knuckles should qualify as Monk's weapons too.
stuff
All of the things you suggest costs even MORE gold.
[grognard]
Perhaps your gaming experience is different than mine. I agree, that if you have infinite gold resources, then the feat is balanced. However, in apx. 26 years of gaming, I've NEVER had a DM give a group infinite resources. Those type of games used to be called "Monte Hall campaigns" (or Monte HAUL), and people used to make fun of them. Perhaps times have changed.
[/grognard]
That said, if the fighter is getting an extra "X" gp above the guideline, then you can bet the wizard is too. Metamagic rods are BETTER than the metamagic feats because they don't increase the spell level you are spending when you cast the spell. So why waste a "precious" resource on the metamagic feat when you have so much disposable income, and can get a better benefit by buying the metamagic rod? In addition, I only mentioned a Ring of Protection +5 as offering the wizard/sorcerer a BETTER AC for LESS MONEY (with these feats). Assuming the Wizard has an equal amount of GP to Spend, they can also purchase amulets of Natural Armor or other Defensive bonus items.
You are burning a first level spell every fight.
Not so. As I said, you get a BETTER AC for LESS GOLD with a Ring of protection +5 and this feat, WITHOUT using a spell. Also, by level 20, you shouldn't be concerned about using a 1st level spell. Finally, spells are BY FAR the most renewable resource a Wizard or sorcerer has. As stated before, you only get 11 feats (more if human or wizard) by 20th level, you only get X/Y gold (X = total gold acquired, Y = number of party members), but you have unlimited spells, because they replenish for free every day.
To illustrate my point, would you rather cast a memorized spell, or the same spell off of a scroll? Most people would choose the memorized spell, because the scroll costs money and is harder to replace.
...no one builds wizards like this.
I built a dwarven sorcerer like this in the last campaign I played in. Quite by accident (I didn't know when I started that this would be a lower-than-average-resources campaign) I ended up having the highest AC and second highest HP in the party just by being a spellcaster worried about his defenses. So, people DO build these characters. If they didn't, the Arcane Armor Mastery feats wouldn't be in the core rulebook.
Also, no one has suggested that this feat is balanced with the other defensive options available to Sorcerers and Wizards Everyone is focusing on my comments about the fighter (I still stand by my opinion on this), but I also mentioned the arcane spell mastery feats, which require spending 4 feats as well. Clearly this proposed feat is better in every way to the alternative for Sorcerers and Wizards.
To all:
Sorry, but no way/no how would I allow this feat in my campaign. The OP wanted opinions on the feat, and mine hasn't changed. Perhaps if it was based off of the BAB instead of level, then I would consider it ballanced. However as it stands, it takes away some of the glory of the fighter.
I built a dwarven sorcerer like this in the last campaign I played in.
...no one builds wizards like this
Im sorry, bad choice of words. I should have said rarely. In fact There is a Wizard playing with me right now that has one level of fighter and Fullplate in the campaign im currently playing (character concept of evil omnious scary necromancer in full armor, and yes he is way more concerned with image than power). So yes, I know people do build them. But most of the people that do dont want to sacrifice feats/levels or whatever to make it work.
In truth im not even disagreeing with your stand that its Overpowered. Im saying that the arguement you used was biasis to get the results you wanted. I have not sat down and stated up a wizard or monk or fighter to compare. But I do see you have valid points. Which is why i closed my statement with:
Im not saying the feat is balanced, Im just saying that the scenario you proposed is basis to get the results you wanted. If you feel its Over powered, You could easily take off the plus 2 and just make it 1/2 level. You could put a high BAB on it, +9 for example. All these things could be done if you feel it needs to come down a notch.
For the part of Mage Armor negating the +10 (+5 with +5 worth of powers) armor, remember that Mage Armor not only requires a Melee Touch attack, but you get a save to resist the effects. It's just that most people choose to fail their saves cause the spell is beneficial.
I still wouldn't let the spell ever drop your AC, but that's just me. Using it offensively would still be very difficult as the +4 would have to be greater than the base bonus of the magic armor.
Either way, it's light armor, so it wouldn't affect a user of the feat.