I need to build the fourth member for our party that is to begin an AP in a week or so (ROTRL), I am looking for the best fit for the party with my rolled stats.
My stats are:
17, 16, 13, 11, 11, 9
The party make-up, so far:
Alchemist, Oracle of lore, and a monk.
What would you suggest?
Thanks.
You will get as many answers as there are classes, and more if you count different builds.
I would play a ranged bard.
str 13
dex 17
con 11
int 9
wis 11
cha 16
Boost your arcane support and give the other classes who will have lots of attacks bonuses
Paladin.Your party's healing is sub-par, as is your party's ability to tank.
-James
Yeah, you have a point, but I am playing a Paladin in a different game right now...
I'm assuming you use pathfinder instead of 3.5
You seem to lack a full arcanist, and a tank. If you are willing to try for something difficult you can play an eldritch knight with those stats.
As such I would go with the following personally:
Str 16, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 17, Wis 11, Cha 9
Wizard for the first five levels with still spell being your fifth level bonus feat. Fighter for your sixth level then eldritch knight. With Still spell you can wear full plate for armor and use either a two handed weapon or a shield while still getting your spells off with no problems. It will delay what spells you have access to some but if you use long term buffs before you put your armor on you shouldn't have much trouble.
Feats I would look at are:
Arcane strike
Power Attack
Toughness (pathfinder toughness)
Combat Casting
Improved familiar (honestly the faerie dragon familiar is a spell caster and can buff you during and before the fight with scrolls and the like)
Quicken spell should be taken around 13th level.
IF you take 2 levels of fighter you can get greater weapon specialization for a weapon. With this you have a decision to make -- either you can go with mounted combat and use a phantom stead or the like with a dancing lance to get really nice charge damage while casting spells (the lance charges for you while you move and you still have a standard action to cast spells) or you can focus on a different combat style -- you should get just enough feats to do a light combat style (either two handed, sword and board, or archery).
Now I know your capstone, arcane strike and quicken spell all take swift actions. This isn't such the problem though. IF you think you'll want to quicken a spell in a round don't use arcane strike. When you full attack if you activate your capstone great -- if not use a spell you prepared quickened. Since you won't be using quickened spells all the time anytime you attack and aren't going to quicken a spell just use the arcane strike.
You will get as many answers as there are classes, and more if you count different builds.
True, I have not honed-down the options yet, and I usually come-up with a character concept first, then build a class around that.
So far, we have:
Ranged bard (too much overlap w/oracle of lore for my taste)
Paladin (excellent choice, already playing one somewhere else)
Eldritch night (have to mull-over that one a minute)
We are playing pathfinder, with core only (and the AP's player's guide).
You need a rogue, and you need a heavy duty frontliner, so split the difference.
Strength 17 +2 Human=19
Dexterity 16
Constitution 13
Intelligence 11
Wisdom 11
Charisma 9
1-Fighter-Power Attack, Weapon focus- Greatsword, Dazzling Display
2-Rogue-
3-Rogue-Intimidating Prowess, Rogue Talent -Trap Spotter
4-Rogue-
5-Rogue-Skill Focus-Intimidate, Rogue Talent- Bleeding Attack
6-Fighter-Toughness
7-Fighter-Cornugon Smash, Shatter Defenses
8-Rogue-
9-Rogue-Iron Will, Rogue Talent- Slow Reactions
10-Rogue-
11-Rogue-Improved Iron Will, Rogue Talent- Surprise Attack
Onwards- Whatever you prefer
First ability point into Strength, next Constitution, then all Strength.
Full movement speed and skill use in Mithral Full plate courtesy of Armour Training, and you need no flank to sneak attack. Using Cornugon Smash you make your opponents flat footed with your power attacks, and cut them to pieces in melee with your sneak attacks.
This kind of character is a thug, and an interesting change from the typical frail duel wielding rogues people like to use.
Oh also, your monk friend will LOVE you, since all the foes you are making flat footed automatically trigger his Medusa's Wrath feat, meaning he will destroy in combat as well.
**Edit** Hells, just noticed Core and APG only, Cornugon Smash is in the Pathfinder Cheliax companion, is that accessible to you?
You could play an inquisitor, suring up a bunch of gaps all at once. They have a solid skill list (you appear to be lacking skill support). A boost to your divine casting, as well as potentially another descent secondary melee fighter to go with the monk and posibly the alchemist.
what kind of build is the alchemist going for? That might help answer the question.
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Alchemist can cover the rogue disable device duties pretty well, they're pretty darn versatile. So I wouldn't play a rogue.
Oracle of lore can cover the bard role pretty well, and the skill checks a wizard or cleric would impart, so I wouldn't go bard.
The monk should hopefully be able to do good melee damage, so I wouldn't do a barbarian, ranger, rogue.
I'd say to really round out the group you'll want to be one of: paladin, inquisitor, cavalier, fighter, martial cleric or druid.
I'd expect to be a front-line warrior, which those all should be able to satisfy. Outside of the druid, they may all feel a little close to a paladin, since you will probably be using a 1H weapon and shield and taking hits; so pick a different race to mix it up. Play a gnome cavalier or druid if your existing paladin is human and be even harder to hit...
I'd suggest a ranger, since you don't want to do paladin (and a melee cleric is probably also too close to paladin).
The ranger's scouting abilities and other skills will be useful and don't seem to be covered by other classes, and if you want to go the melee route, you can then help the monk by flanking enemies, etc.
The only major skill overlap I'm aware of is that monks also have stealth and perception, but having two people to scout ahead instead of one is in my experience a good thing.
The ranger's eventual ability to cast some divine spells will help healing (getting ye standard wand of cure light won't be a bad idea). Hunter's bond will be handy one way or the other.
OTOH: The first three classes are fairly flexible. You could pick whatever you liked and probably make it work.
If you wanted to go the arcane route (and the Charismatic route, if you need a party face), but still have some melee ability, but you're not excited about Eldritch Knight.... how about a draconic sorcerer that Prestiges into Dragon Disciple? That'd give you a lot more arcane casting as well as some other nifty abilities bound to come in handy in that group.
I think one of these three
Paladin (u are already Playing one so maybe not)
Ranger (RORL is full of solid Favored Enemies Giants and Goblins)
Inqisitor (all the reasons said of him being able to fill so many roles and I like the class)
How about Druid with a Melee pet?
I would go ranger with bow focus.
An Oracle is a type of cleric, right?
I've seen the alchemist. He's like a spellcaster with test tubes.
He can also hulk out so he and the monk can frontline.
I've got to create an alchemist named Dr. Banner or Dr. Jeakel at some point.
Anyways, point blank shot, then percise shot.
Since Dex and Str. will take the best stats, call preemptive dibs on any composite strength bows.
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Something with heavy armor and at least a d10 HD.
Your party will get eaten alive in melee, The monk can only hold off one opponent at a time while your alch and oracle get munched on by critters.
I personally suggest cavalier for tankishness, but the class doesn't seem to get too much love around these messageboards.
How about Druid with a Melee pet?
A Druid with an Ape taught how to pick locks.
Bard.
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You should be 1/11th of every class. That should work.
Seriously though, it depends on the builds. The Oracle is automatically going to get cures, and a lot of spells per day, so they can do alright on healing (though not in the late game unless they use a spell known for Heal). The alchemist can be Rogue and/or Tank. This matters. The monk is going to be the special forces of your party, tripping, disarming, etc.
So with the alchemist able to fill the rogue roll with 2 skill points/level, and able to join in melee as well if built right, I'd say a hybrid controller-caster/tank is the way to go.
Interestingly, an oracle of battle actually fits this bill pretty well. You can tank, stab, heal and still get a few spells for buffing and control (and even a handful for damage). If you coordinate spell lists with the other oracle you'd do great. Take the Skill at Arms revelation, wear heavy armor.
Pick up a heavy steel shield and use a spiked gauntlet as your weapon (focus on str for getting damage) and you'll be able to keep a hand free for casting without needing to worry about quick draw or dropping your weapon. Focus your feats on battle-based effects and you'll do great.
The Weapon Mastery revelation will give you some free feats that'll be nice.
Combat healer would let you heal as a swift action in emergencies without using higher level spell slots (uses two of the same level).
Battlecry can act like a sort-of inspire courage if you want that.
I agree that the tank issues is of some concern, as is the healing issue. However, if done properly, potions ans wands of cure light can take care of pretty much all the healing needs of the party. Also, an alchemist can make a really broken front line fighter with his jeckyll and hyde craziness (especially since those bonuses are alchemical, and will stack with enhancement bonuses).
The Eldritch Knight is a good idea, but I love playing those types of classes anyways. Paladin would be solid, as would a fighter, cleric, or inquisitor.
One option that I think would fit really well, as long as you were willing to go some more alternate healing routes, that I am surprised no one has mentioned, is the Summoner. You get some decent buffing abilities, and a friggin awesome tank that you can custom build in the Eidolon. That would be my main recommendation (then just buy a 4 pack of cure wands so that you can get healed up cheaply between encounters).
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Summoner.
Eidolon can pick up some of the front-lining issues and have summoned backup for help while you can use a few fair spells to help the party. Pick up a reach weapon and try to offer some support that way also. The Eidolon can also help with skills if you deck him out right....
Stole my suggestion. Eidolon can tank and the summoner can use the Summon Monster SLA to take care of some skills issues and even some healing at higher levels.
Most of all play something that sounds fun and appealing to you. Hopefully your GM will work with whatever party mix you have.
You should be 1/11th of every class. That should work.
This is a most excellent suggestion!!!
Someone please get this joke.
Summoner.
Eidolon can pick up some of the front-lining issues and have summoned backup for help while you can use a few fair spells to help the party. Pick up a reach weapon and try to offer some support that way also. The Eidolon can also help with skills if you deck him out right....Stole my suggestion. Eidolon can tank and the summoner can use the Summon Monster SLA to take care of some skills issues and even some healing at higher levels.
Most of all play something that sounds fun and appealing to you. Hopefully your GM will work with whatever party mix you have.
+1
Though you'll have a 3/4 AP party, which is a little on the cheesy side.
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Summoner.
Eidolon can pick up some of the front-lining issues and have summoned backup for help while you can use a few fair spells to help the party. Pick up a reach weapon and try to offer some support that way also. The Eidolon can also help with skills if you deck him out right....Stole my suggestion. Eidolon can tank and the summoner can use the Summon Monster SLA to take care of some skills issues and even some healing at higher levels.
Most of all play something that sounds fun and appealing to you. Hopefully your GM will work with whatever party mix you have.
+1
Though you'll have a 3/4 AP party, which is a little on the cheesy side.
Hmm, I'm not sure why the APG classes are any cheesier than core classes, it's all about how you play them. Cheese isn't in the class, it's what you bring to it.
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I still like the idea of using an Oracle of Battle. It wouldn't overlap with any of the functions of an Oracle of Lore (other than light healing) as those two oracles are quite different. It would be a 3/4 BAB beatstick with several tricks up its sleeve.
Actually, it makes a good magus*.
Summoner is good for the tank and control-via-critters role too, but it isn't as versatile an option. Maybe I just like versatile characters too much. (I haven't played a simple Fighter or Sorcerer in ages). Besides, the summoner's battle-field control becomes tough if they're either good or evil aligned and the enemy uses protection from <alignment> as most of the summons gain the celestial/evil template and thus wouldn't be able to touch them. Neutral summoners wouldn't have this problem, 'cause they could just switch which template they're using.
Wow, lots o'suggestions. Thank you everybody for your responses, I am still on the fence though...
You need a rogue, and you need a heavy duty frontliner, so split the difference.
Strength 17 +2 Human=19
Dexterity 16
Constitution 13
Intelligence 11
Wisdom 11
Charisma 91-Fighter-Power Attack, Weapon focus- Greatsword, Dazzling Display
2-Rogue-
3-Rogue-Intimidating Prowess, Rogue Talent -Trap Spotter
4-Rogue-
5-Rogue-Skill Focus-Intimidate, Rogue Talent- Bleeding Attack
6-Fighter-Toughness
7-Fighter-Cornugon Smash, Shatter Defenses
8-Rogue-
9-Rogue-Iron Will, Rogue Talent- Slow Reactions
10-Rogue-
11-Rogue-Improved Iron Will, Rogue Talent- Surprise Attack
Onwards- Whatever you preferFirst ability point into Strength, next Constitution, then all Strength.
Full movement speed and skill use in Mithral Full plate courtesy of Armour Training, and you need no flank to sneak attack. Using Cornugon Smash you make your opponents flat footed with your power attacks, and cut them to pieces in melee with your sneak attacks.
This kind of character is a thug, and an interesting change from the typical frail duel wielding rogues people like to use.
Oh also, your monk friend will LOVE you, since all the foes you are making flat footed automatically trigger his Medusa's Wrath feat, meaning he will destroy in combat as well.
**Edit** Hells, just noticed Core and APG only, Cornugon Smash is in the Pathfinder Cheliax companion, is that accessible to you?
+1
Alchemist can tank, but he would have to build into it to be good at it. A Monk is not good enough damage dealer to be your main one.
If a wizard, definitely a summoner. I had a neutral sorc once that would always summon a Hound Archeron who would always go after the most evil sob in the room. Control was not an issue. If you are worried about protection from good, collect extra missle weapons and lend them to the help.
If a sorc. pick a bloodline that gives you good combat perks. Does a dragon bloodline give you a breath attack?
If you are willing to do some conversion, let me drop the N word, Ninja. The best combination of fighter and rogue ever. Note that a future Pathfinder product will have them, and you will have to tweek the character, but it might be worth the trouble.
Sooo, looks like I got my concept. He will be a dexteritous fighter, probably wielding a whip and tripping/disarming. He is an RP build, and is a prissy/sniveling rich-boy, who avoids close combat and comes-off maybe a little cowardly, his lowest stat will be Wisdom.
Any advice on such a build will be appreciated.
whatever you want would be my initial reaction
druid isnt bad either
Sooo, looks like I got my concept. He will be a dexteritous fighter, probably wielding a whip and tripping/disarming. He is an RP build, and is a prissy/sniveling rich-boy, who avoids close combat and comes-off maybe a little cowardly, his lowest stat will be Wisdom.
Any advice on such a build will be appreciated.
Sounds like you've already got much of your build from your description -- high dex, with an int of at least 13 so he can get Combat Expertise and the Trip/Disarm Feats. You'll want a decent strength. If he's prissy, that suggests a low cha.
I would give him an additional weapon so that he can actually hurt things should he need to, when combat maneuvers won't save the day.
I listened to the Chronicles: Pathfinder podcast and they did a whip build with Caught Off Guard so the person could do damage with a chair, a la a lion tamer ;). Alternately maybe a flail since you'll get your weapon training bonuses to both the whip and the flail.
If he's cowardly, go up the dodge, mobility, spring attack tree so he can attack and then get away and be unlikely to stay in a threatened area. Plus also, eventually since he'll also have combat expertise, he can then take Whirlwind Attack, which'll be fun to have by the time you qualify for it.
Also to help him move out of the way, put points in Acrobatics--even though it's not a class skill (which is entirely stupid, because Jump was a Fighter class skill in 3.5, and it borks backwards compatibility), it's still worth it, especially with your high dex. If you have a feat to spare, may even take Acrobatic or Skill focus as the feat to help boost that--this will also help you move around the battlefield. Along with other mobility issues, things like Fleet may be useful if you're really wanting to mile that--but I would be sure to get your combat maneuvers, etc. taken on before you start taking feats like that.
For your other 3 skill points (if you're human with Int 13), pick Survival if nobody else has it (maybe daddy took him on hunts when he was little). Take a knowledge nobody else has (the Fighter's knowledges, dungeoneering and engineering, can both come in handy). And maybe Climb to also go with the mobility, since you'd already be building on that anyway. Maybe a rank or two in Knowledge Nobility to reflect his background.
If you have feats left over, at higher levels take Iron Will and Improved Iron Will. I understand why you want him to be "a little cowardly" but you will have very low will saves and especially at high levels you will want to offset that a little if you can.
Great concept and you will hopefully be able to do a lot with it. It won't be a damage focused build but you should be able to help control battles and do some other cool stuff.
Caveat to all of the above: I have not played the AP, so this is general, not specific to the needs of the campaign.
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You may want to be careful. Combat maneuvers are a lot different now. It is much harder to be a decent tripping, disarming dude then it was before. I feel that at 10th or so level you will hardly be able to pull off any decent amount of combat maneuvers and having a PC based around them could end up feeling somewhat useless.
Having said that, if you can pull it off and feel happy with the results then cool....but be cautious.
You may want to be careful. Combat maneuvers are a lot different now. It is much harder to be a decent tripping, disarming dude then it was before. I feel that at 10th or so level you will hardly be able to pull off any decent amount of combat maneuvers and having a PC based around them could end up feeling somewhat useless.
Having said that, if you can pull it off and feel happy with the results then cool....but be cautious.
Yep, I've dropped the whip Idea. He's gonna be the cocky swordsman, focusing on the rapier. Don't know what ranged I'm going with, or what feats quite yet. Probably gonna take the city-born feat (GM's gonna hook one up for free I think).
If he's prissy, does that mean he's afraid of dirt, like Monk?
An insainity should get you more build points.
Fancy missle weapons include, silvered throwing knives, a tiny crossbow like Drows use, or a masterwork starknife.
You need a rogue, and you need a heavy duty frontliner, so split the difference.
1-Fighter-Power Attack, Weapon focus- Greatsword, Dazzling Display
2-Rogue-
3-Rogue-Intimidating Prowess, Rogue Talent -Trap Spotter
4-Rogue-
5-Rogue-Skill Focus-Intimidate, Rogue Talent- Bleeding Attack
6-Fighter-Toughness
7-Fighter-Cornugon Smash, Shatter Defenses
8-Rogue-
9-Rogue-Iron Will, Rogue Talent- Slow Reactions
10-Rogue-
11-Rogue-Improved Iron Will, Rogue Talent- Surprise Attack
Onwards- Whatever you preferFirst ability point into Strength, next Constitution, then all Strength.
Full movement speed and skill use in Mithral Full plate courtesy of Armour Training, and you need no flank to sneak attack. Using Cornugon Smash you make your opponents flat footed with your power attacks, and cut them to pieces in melee with your sneak attacks.
Thanks for posting this. My polearm swinging fighter was recently taken out by a failed massive damage save and I replaced him with a half elf using a variation on this build. He just hit the level 7 sweet spot and is out-damaging everyone and still performing his roguely duties (something the party was sorely missing). Great build.
Thanks for posting this. My polearm swinging fighter was recently taken out by a failed massive damage save and I replaced him with a half elf using a variation on this build. He just hit the level 7 sweet spot and is out-damaging everyone and still performing his roguely duties (something the party was sorely missing). Great build.
Good to hear you're enjoying it, and it's gratifying to know it plays as well in-game as it looks on paper.
Fumbles is my hero.
Fumbles is my hero.
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Thank you, but it's "Señor Vorpal Kickass'o" now.